Bryan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The thing about the Atari is that it will show its age if you use it in a straightforward way. Your background will have a few colors and your sprites will be monochrome. However, you can usually get some additional color if you're willing to work harder in your game engine. The A8 game is probably the best example I can think of. The figure of 23 colors/line would only work in extremely limited circumstances (like a carefully selected still image) and is not a realistic target for game development. For me, the coolest thing about the Atari is what you can get out of it when you think outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Psionic Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) In my opinion, 5200 games look better, sound better, and most importantly, PLAY better on a 5200. I find the Colecovision controllers awkward and clumsy, imprecise, and worst-of-all, slow to respond, and I just don't like the look of the Colecovision graphics. The 5200 graphics look sharper and more vibrant to me, while the cv looks sloppy and cartoony. You're being even more subjective than I. The controller issue, for one, hampers both systems. Oddly enough for those who dislike the stock controllers, it's easier to play CV games using a 2600 stick than it is to do the same on a 5200. For that, you need a Masterplay Interface (which is expensive and difficult to acquire). I dislike the NES graphics for the same reason. For that matter I dislike the standard font on the CV and NES, but I dislike the 5200 font as well, and just accept the fonts as limitations of the era. The font?? It seems silly to dislike any game system for something so trivial, but to each his own. You may make some valid points, but you simply can't say "the simple fact is...", followed by subjective opinion. That's no different than me stating "The simple fact is that The Beatles were the best musical group ever." I believe it, but it isn't necessarily a FACT. Simply a manner of speech. We're discussing subjective matters here and I think it's a given that anything I say is my subjective opinion, regardless of my word choice. It's a given that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but that doesn't mean that everything is relative. My opinion is that ColecoVision has some legitimate disadvantages (some of which are technical), but if you're one of the true believers who really thinks that the 5200 is the superior gaming machine, you're part of a very small minority. There's a reason why the popularity of the 5200 as a gaming machine has plummeted in recent years (and the value of its games on the collectors market has tanked), while the ColecoVision is hotter than ever. That alone speaks volumes. Edited June 18, 2009 by PingvinBlueJeans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The thing about the Atari is that it will show its age if you use it in a straightforward way. Your background will have a few colors and your sprites will be monochrome. However, you can usually get some additional color if you're willing to work harder in your game engine. The A8 game is probably the best example I can think of. The figure of 23 colors/line would only work in extremely limited circumstances (like a carefully selected still image) and is not a realistic target for game development. For me, the coolest thing about the Atari is what you can get out of it when you think outside the box. It's not restricted to still images. For still imagery, you can get a lot more colors per scanline by re-using colors in GPRIOR 0 mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Interesting that the programmer opted to make the car the same color as the trees (considering that the machine can display 23 colors per scanline). In fact it uses 23 colors per scanline , but 23 times the same yellow! It's better to understand how it works rather than guess from some games you have seen (limited observation). I and others already gave you enough proof in the other thread so you speaking against it seems suprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 >Now calling the A800 version the best DK ever is too much a stretch... Actually the best version is in the works, to make companion to the best versions of Space Invaders (I and II), Pac-Man and Ms Pac-Man available on classic systems. Comparing with nonexistent things is sign of being mentally sick. Actually Pac-Man Collection and Space Invaders Collection are quite real, just ask the CV users here. DK is in the works, as I indicated. Since it uses arcade code, and it is already partially playable, I think it's pretty safe for me to come here and say that no other version for a classic system can match it... Either you discuss which system has better hardware or you give your subjective opinions about which games you think are getter on which system. In this case, you did neither. Some game being better on another system doesn't allow you to conclude that machine is better or worse since many other factors go into producing a game and it's a limited observation. If you compare to nonexistent game, then I can claim theoretically all A5200 games are superior to Colecevision-- they just haven't been done yet. Your claiming MSX is same as Colecovision is also stretching things given A5200 is scaled down version of A400 from 1979. Everything on A5200 can be done on A400 but not the other way around. So it is fair to compare A400 games on A5200. But I am not making a big deal of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I and others already gave you enough proof in the other thread so you speaking against it seems suprising. Which proof? So far no proof of games using more than 5 colors/scanline... BTW, Crownland is very impressive. Shows how good an A800 game can look. And you see, it's still limited to 5 colors/scanline, 160 pixels horizontally. Not bad at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 If you compare to nonexistent game... Which non-existing game are we talking about? The one with 23 colors/scanline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I and others already gave you enough proof in the other thread so you speaking against it seems suprising. Which proof? So far no proof of games using more than 5 colors/scanline... BTW, Crownland is very impressive. Shows how good an A800 game can look. And you see, it's still limited to 5 colors/scanline, 160 pixels horizontally. Not bad at all... Actually I counted 10 colours on a single line in crownland .. black / yellow / red / turq / green ( in background ) + brown / tan / pink ( Main char ) + 3 pinks ( snail enemy - but one same pink as main char ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 If you compare to nonexistent game... Which non-existing game are we talking about? The one with 23 colors/scanline? You can't follow your own claim about the nonexisting game. As I said, first you admit you are wrong about 5 colors/scanline and then we'll talk 23 colors/scanline and beyond. I don't waste time with people purposely trying to find fault before they even understand the Atari hardware. In fact now that I recall, I never entered this thread ONLY making an obvious point that Atari has a color palette advantage against other machines during 8-bit era and you argued against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I and others already gave you enough proof in the other thread so you speaking against it seems suprising. Which proof? So far no proof of games using more than 5 colors/scanline... BTW, Crownland is very impressive. Shows how good an A800 game can look. And you see, it's still limited to 5 colors/scanline, 160 pixels horizontally. Not bad at all... He knows what I'm talking about. You are ignorant of the other thread from the way you are making blind claims here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 If you compare to nonexistent game... Which non-existing game are we talking about? The one with 23 colors/scanline? You can't follow your own claim about the nonexisting game. As I said, first you admit you are wrong about 5 colors/scanline and then we'll talk 23 colors/scanline and beyond. I don't waste time with people purposely trying to find fault before they even understand the Atari hardware. In fact now that I recall, I never entered this thread ONLY making an obvious point that Atari has a color palette advantage against other machines during 8-bit era and you argued against it. Remove "never" from above. You can't follow the logic-- you can have a superior machine, but games have their own objective to achieve which does not always coincide with exploiting the hardware to its potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I and others already gave you enough proof in the other thread so you speaking against it seems suprising. Which proof? So far no proof of games using more than 5 colors/scanline... BTW, Crownland is very impressive. Shows how good an A800 game can look. And you see, it's still limited to 5 colors/scanline, 160 pixels horizontally. Not bad at all... He knows what I'm talking about. You are ignorant of the other thread from the way you are making blind claims here. You have again took my post seriously when i said it used 23 colors by scanline but 23 times the same yellow??? I know 23 colors by scanline is possible on a Atari 8 . No doubt about that. The issue is that it is never used in game. So we can suppose that it is not usable for a "solid" game . So that hardware feature as good it is ,is simply irrelevant for a comparison between colecovision and Atari 5200 which are BOTH GAME CONSOLE. Therefore it could be relevent if you compare MSX and A800 but it is not the topic. And please show me a simple picture where you have 23 pixel side by side having each a different color.(in a resolution with minimum 160 pixel horizontally of course...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) And please show me a simple picture where you have 23 pixel side by side having each a different color.(in a resolution with minimum 160 pixel horizontally of course...) Actually, that's easy. You run into problems when you want the colors spread out in multiple locations. You get these extra colors in two ways. One is when you turn off Player/Playfield priorities. Instead of appearing in front of or behind each other, Playfield and Player colors mix (logical-OR) to form new colors where they overlap. Second, there is a separate option where Players 0 and 1 and Players 2 and 3 will create a third color where they overlap. The total number of color combinations ends up being 23. Doing something useful with all the interactions is difficult- especially when objects are set in motion and will need to pass over background objects or other "sprites". All the clipping, merging and masking will restrict how many colors you end up achieving and at what framerate your game runs. Technically, you can also add more color by changing color registers in mid scanline. -Bry Edited June 18, 2009 by Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Good grief what a bunch of childish name calling and awful behavior you (opcode and atariksi) exhibit... I am glad that the supporters of the CV and A8 have such mature people involved in their community, despite whatever technical skills you may have you are both behaving in truly deplorable ways! On the other hand those MSX shots are a great point of discussion - I have a reasonable MSX collection so have plenty of love for the system, especially those Konami carts, with the extra soundchip like Gradius. But let's be honest the MSX1 chipset - a close relative of the Colecovision for sure, but hardly the chip identical 5200/Atari 800 comparison is it? However let's also be honest - all those games flicker like HELL when you play them and when they scroll they scroll in "smooth" 8 pixel jumps - Parodius nearly gives me a migraine when I play it! I don't think 160 pixels is PATHETIC opcode, I think your attitude is, 160 pixels gave us Star Raiders, Rescue on Fractalus, MULE, Archon etc - sorry to say but they are good games... And let's be clear there are ALWAYS at least 11 colors per scan-line possible on the 5200 in 160 mode, 5 play-field colors, 4 sprite colors plus 2 overlap sprite colors - all without any effort, please don't take that away from us... sTeVE P.S. Despite your accusations opcode, some of us have produced LOTS of games, and are experienced game developers, not just on old retro platforms 20 years after they died... P.P.S. Flowers is a nice example of a little game with lots of colors... Edited June 18, 2009 by Jetboot Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Actually I counted 10 colours on a single line in crownland .. black / yellow / red / turq / green ( in background ) + brown / tan / pink ( Main char ) + 3 pinks ( snail enemy - but one same pink as main char ) brown / tan / pink ( Main char ) + 3 pinks ( snail enemy - but one same pink as main char ) = sprites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 yes - but still colours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 If that putrid A8 Donkey Kong with the chunky graphics sculpted from old cottage cheese doesn't convince you, ....[sNIP] It's okay to have your preference, and if you think the Coleco version of Donkey Kong is God, that's cool. I think it's a pretty good-looking version overall. In the day, all we had to compare it to was the putrid Atari 2600 version. However, I don't see the need to denigrate the Atari 800 version to express your viewpoint. Where's the cottage cheese you speak of, exactly? Most reasonable people agree that it's an excellent version. Here are some points over the beloved Colecovision version: 1) Obviously, it has the 4th "pie factory" screen. Colecovision has 3 screens. 2) The barrels are animated with the same "bounce" characteristics as the arcade. This is a nuance, but it is accurately depicted in the Atari 800 version. The Colecovision version does not. 3) The Atari 800 controls are not as touchy; when in a hurry with the Colecovision version, you must be exactly centered under the ladder and sometimes the delay in doing so kills you. 4) The "rivet" screen on the Colecovision version is missing a level. The Atari 800 version has all 4 girder levels. The Colecovision version also colors the girder level the same as barrel level. 5) The fire on the Colecovision version is less detailed, and is drawn completely static, although it does flip over when changing directions. The Atari 800 version is animated, and certainly more detailed. 6) When stiking things with the hammers, the Atari 800 version accurately dispays a little burst as they are smashed; on the Colecovision version, they just "disappear" on contact with the hammer. 7) The sounds on the Colecovision are considerably less accurate to the arcade. This is particularly noticable with the "jump" sound, which is absolutely NOT even close. The Atari 800 sounds are indeed very close. The "elevator" level on the Coleco lacks the bouncing springs, entirely. The Atari 800 version not only has them, but they increase in difficulty in later stages. 9) When you die in the Colecovision version, the appropriate (or approximate, rather) sound plays, but your man just freezes up while the sound plays. The Atari 800 verison displays the appropriate tumbling and halo animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Well, for what it is worth, I am interest now in both again, I have the CV and the 5200 and a bunch of games. The talk here makes me want to hook them both up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 P.P.S. Flowers is a nice example of a little game with lots of colors... That would be a cool game to make a 5200 version of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Indeed it would, it's one of the only recent games I have REALLY enjoyed (aside from Yoomp and Hobgoblin)... The 5200 lacks those neat little puzzle titles in it's library I think... sTeVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Actually I counted 10 colours on a single line in crownland .. black / yellow / red / turq / green ( in background ) + brown / tan / pink ( Main char ) + 3 pinks ( snail enemy - but one same pink as main char ) brown / tan / pink ( Main char ) + 3 pinks ( snail enemy - but one same pink as main char ) = sprites... Well, yes in standard (non-GTIA) modes there are only two ways to get more than 5 colors in a playfield line: 1. Add Players in some way. 2. Use the CPU in mid-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Well, for what it is worth, I am interest now in both again, I have the CV and the 5200 and a bunch of games. The talk here makes me want to hook them both up again. This thread makes me want to BUY a Colecovision; something I know very little about. I remember pickng up titbits about needing to replace electrolytic caps, etc in them. Sounds like I'd be diving into a ball of wax. On the other hand, $100 worth of controller rebuilding is necessary on any 5200. Ha ha. I guess it's no wonder I don't have either one, but play emulator for Coleco and Atari-8 or emulator for 5200 fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 On the other hand those MSX shots are a great point of discussion - I have a reasonable MSX collection so have plenty of love for the system, especially those Konami carts, with the extra soundchip like Gradius. Gradius doesn't have a sound chip... Wrong game... But let's be honest the MSX1 chipset - a close relative of the Colecovision for sure, but hardly the chip identical 5200/Atari 800 comparison is it? In my view it is, as I can port games from MSX to CV and vice-versa.... I don't think 160 pixels is PATHETIC opcode, I think your attitude is, 160 pixels gave us Star Raiders, Rescue on Fractalus, MULE, Archon etc - sorry to say but they are good games... You see, you seem to have a problem with scroll and sprite flickering on the MSX, I have a problem with 160 pixels and 5 colors/scanline, that reminds me of the 70s... It's all a matter of personal opinion... You can express your aversion for block scroll and sprite flickering, still nobody is calling you childish here... And let's be clear there are ALWAYS at least 11 colors per scan-line possible on the 5200 in 160 mode, 5 play-field colors, 4 sprite colors plus 2 overlap sprite colors - all without any effort, please don't take that away from us... The CV can show all 16 colors/scanline in 256 mode, it can produce 64 pixels worth of sprites/scanline, still nobody wants to admit that. P.S. Despite your accusations opcode, some of us have produced LOTS of games, and are experienced game developers, not just on old retro platforms 20 years after they died... Yeah, I love to talk to superior beings... You see, you come here and post your personal opinions as fact, show games that aren't 5200, highlight the strong points of the 5200 while at the same time call all the machine's weaknesses irrelevant. However if I do the same I am labeled childish, ignorant, dumb and more. We are all in the same boat, pal. You aren't better than me... Now show me the damn 5200 games, mr mature… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Well, for what it is worth, I am interest now in both again, I have the CV and the 5200 and a bunch of games. The talk here makes me want to hook them both up again. I knew it would be worth the effort! Edit: wood_jl too! Very productive discussion indeed... Edited June 18, 2009 by opcode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApolloBoy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 On the other hand those MSX shots are a great point of discussion - I have a reasonable MSX collection so have plenty of love for the system, especially those Konami carts, with the extra soundchip like Gradius. Gradius doesn't have a sound chip... Wrong game... Actually, Gradius/Nemesis was rereleased with the SCC chip, so he's kinda right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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