kenfused Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 For all of you gurus out there - is there ANYWHERE undocumented RAM exists that I can steal for this? RIOT @$480 with 128 bytes - Thats half of what you need. Its going to run at TIA speed so don't put heavily accessed data in it. How about you compact the "used" data after the player has finished instead of saving the 7800's character mode data directly. That way you'll get an 8 to 1 compression (or so, depends how you pack the power pills too). I'm not sure if you do that already tho. Are the other players dots being packet into that RAM as tightly as possible (using as few bits as possible for each)? For instance, in b*nQ I only need 2 bits to store each cube's state and 14 bits to store the moving disc positions for storing the other players board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickeycolumbus Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 The 7800 software guide says there is RAM from $0140-$01FF, are you using that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 The 7800 software guide says there is RAM from $0140-$01FF, are you using that? Its being used! the 7800 has 4K of RAM that is shared between page's 0 and 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 For all of you gurus out there - is there ANYWHERE undocumented RAM exists that I can steal for this? RIOT @$480 with 128 bytes - Thats half of what you need. Its going to run at TIA speed so don't put heavily accessed data in it. How about you compact the "used" data after the player has finished instead of saving the 7800's character mode data directly. That way you'll get an 8 to 1 compression (or so, depends how you pack the power pills too). I'm not sure if you do that already tho. Are the other players dots being packet into that RAM as tightly as possible (using as few bits as possible for each)? For instance, in b*nQ I only need 2 bits to store each cube's state and 14 bits to store the moving disc positions for storing the other players board. It's already using 1 bit per dot. I went over the RAM a couple of times, trying to compact it - that is how I got it down to only needing $FF bytes. I'll continue looking. I actually saw the RAM at $480, but the Atari manual specifically says not to use it. Does anyone know what will happen if I do? (The 'backup dots' only get written to when the player dies, so it's not heavily accessed.) Thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) It's already using 1 bit per dot. I went over the RAM a couple of times, trying to compact it - that is how I got it down to only needing $FF bytes. I'll continue looking. How about setting bit 4 in CTRL (CW or CWIDTH - depends on the datasheet you read). That will enable double character width mode. Effectively halving the character memory required by the 5 byte indirect mode display lists you are using. If you need some help compacting the game data just PM me. EDIT: For spelling. Edited May 17, 2009 by GroovyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdement Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I actually saw the RAM at $480, but the Atari manual specifically says not to use it. icon_sad.gif Does anyone know what will happen if I do? (The 'backup dots' only get written to when the player dies, so it's not heavily accessed.) The documentation says this is because that RAM "may not exist in future versions of the MARIA chip, so it should not be used." In reality, every 7800 ever made should have this RAM, so that warning really doesn't matter anymore. They were apparently leaving open the possibility of a future 7800 model that didn't support 2600 games. Or maybe they were planning to eliminate the 6532 and remap the 2600 RAM into 7800 space. Anyway, whatever they were planning it didn't happen. It's already using 1 bit per dot. It may be necessary to do some run-length encoding on the non-active player's dots. That should save a lot of space, but it's more programming. It's impossible for the player to skip over alternating dots, so that type of worst case would never happen. I don't know what the actual worst case would be with this game. When the player dies, you'd need to RLE encode the dot map before unpacking the other player, so you'd need enough RAM for 2 RLE encoded dot maps and 1 uncompressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas83 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hi there Bob I know I am late to the party but new to the site is there any Pac Man Jr carts left? Did you sell them with that awesome looking box as well? Please let me know. P.S. Awesome Work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks, everyone. I am so close!!!! It doesn't seem to like the RIOT RAM; If I play the two player option, which it switches over to the second player the dots are all over the place. Only need $80 more bytes if I can't use the RIOT RAM... Stay Tuned... Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 I THINK I GOT IT! Attached is the latest build of Jr. Pac-Man, with no Cart RAM needed. It is a standard 32K ROM (Like Pac Man Collection) and should work. Don't forget to change the Jr. Pac-Man entry in your CCII to have these two fields: HSC_32K HSC Please give this a try (especially with two players) and let me know if you find any bugs. Thanks, Bob JRPAC_78.A78 jrpac_78.bin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwierer Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I THINK I GOT IT! Attached is the latest build of Jr. Pac-Man, with no Cart RAM needed. It is a standard 32K ROM (Like Pac Man Collection) and should work. Don't forget to change the Jr. Pac-Man entry in your CCII to have these two fields: HSC_32K HSC Please give this a try (especially with two players) and let me know if you find any bugs. Thanks, Bob Close. Crashes during the first intermission, whether playing 1 or 2 player game. Assuming you get this working without ram, Jinks carts can hold the 128K necessary for say a Pacman Collection Revisited including Super Pacman and Jr. Pacman -Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatNJ Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I THINK I GOT IT! Attached is the latest build of Jr. Pac-Man, with no Cart RAM needed. It is a standard 32K ROM (Like Pac Man Collection) and should work. Don't forget to change the Jr. Pac-Man entry in your CCII to have these two fields: HSC_32K HSC Please give this a try (especially with two players) and let me know if you find any bugs. Thanks, Bob Close. Crashes during the first intermission, whether playing 1 or 2 player game. Assuming you get this working without ram, Jinks carts can hold the 128K necessary for say a Pacman Collection Revisited including Super Pacman and Jr. Pacman -Jeff Now that would be a sweet cart to have I'm in for one if it ever came to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammR25 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I THINK I GOT IT! Attached is the latest build of Jr. Pac-Man, with no Cart RAM needed. It is a standard 32K ROM (Like Pac Man Collection) and should work. Don't forget to change the Jr. Pac-Man entry in your CCII to have these two fields: HSC_32K HSC Please give this a try (especially with two players) and let me know if you find any bugs. Thanks, Bob Close. Crashes during the first intermission, whether playing 1 or 2 player game. Assuming you get this working without ram, Jinks carts can hold the 128K necessary for say a Pacman Collection Revisited including Super Pacman and Jr. Pacman -Jeff Yeah I get the same thing on my CC2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Close. Crashes during the first intermission, whether playing 1 or 2 player game. Assuming you get this working without ram, Jinks carts can hold the 128K necessary for say a Pacman Collection Revisited including Super Pacman and Jr. Pacman -Jeff Oops - sorry about that, it was late last night and I watched the attract mode (the stork) which is an 'intermission' so I thought it worked. I had to fix the clearing of the screen which is what crashed the game. It's ok now - attached. I won't be adding those two games to Pac-Man Collection - that is done. I'm trying to move on to something else if I can get past this. Don't worry; you guys will like it. Let me know, Thanks, Bob jrpac_78.bin JRPAC_78.A78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammR25 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I was just playing with the latest bin in two player mode and on the first screen with the second player the green ghost managed to get stuck in the base for awhile. It was with my second or third man and I'm not sure why exactly because I can't duplicate it. I only noticed because I ate a power pill and was wondering where the heck the other ghost was because there were only 3 of them. I just figured for whatever reason one of them didn't turn back into a ghost. Then later as I'm going around the screen I notice the green one is staying in the base, just bobbing up and down. I eat a couple of power pellets to see if that will do something but it doesn't. I kind of forget about it then later I notice he's left their base and is back out again. I don't know if this is suppose to happen or not but it seemed strange. I couldn't duplicate it either. I don't know if it has something to do with eating power pellets too closely together or what. I should also note that I was playing with 5 players and on the faster speed. The first and second intermissions work though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) OK I have read about 3-4 pages here and trying to sift through the tech talk leaves me a bit confused. Can anyone breakdown in laymen terms what issues arise with the first release and which are now fixed with this updated ROM? I have a CC2 but always try to buy a real copy because I like them and because it supports homebrewers. Last night playing the cart since I havent got this ROM to my CC2 yet, I noticed my pacman seems to stick sometimes. I used the euro-pad and then switched to a Sega controller and same thing happened, mostly in corners, not necessarily corner edges of the board but any corner where I had to make a sharp turn. Has this been an issue at all or is this just something that I am experiencing because I need a different controller or because I suck at it yet? Love the game, love Bobs work and if someone could breakdown the issues to expect in the initial release and then also which ones have been fixed since, I'd appreciate it and I think others would as well. Thanks much in advance Edited May 18, 2009 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Using the latest binary, phantom dots are gone! but... now there are extra dots -Jeff OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You are all eating my dots! I'm melting!!!! Oh Noooooooooooo Mr. Bill Bob!!!! HAHAHA I couldn't resist when I saw PHANTOM dots LOL! Edited May 18, 2009 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Can anyone breakdown in laymen terms what issues arise with the first release and which are now fixed with this updated ROM? I have a CC2 but always try to buy a real copy because I like them and because it supports homebrewers. The first release of the game needed an extra 8K RAM inside the cart. With some 7800 console versions this causes problems in the game (visual glitches and game logic problems). Bob has now removed the need for the additional cart RAM by making the game fit into the console's internal RAM. The latest binary release and CC2 setup are the ones to be working with. Can't help you with your controller problem or cart availability question tho. Over to Bob for those . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks GroovyBee I noticed my pacman seems to stick sometimes. I used the euro-pad and then switched to a Sega controller and same thing happened, mostly in corners, not necessarily corner edges of the board but any corner where I had to make a sharp turn.Has this been an issue at all or is this just something that I am experiencing because I need a different controller or because I suck at it yet? I've been testing with a CX40 and it seems ok to me - if you play the original 7800 Ms. Pac-Man do you get the same thing? The controller code is exactly the save as in that game. I was just playing with the latest bin in two player mode and on the first screen with the second player the green ghost managed to get stuck in the base for awhile. It was with my second or third man and I'm not sure why exactly because I can't duplicate it. I only noticed because I ate a power pill and was wondering where the heck the other ghost was because there were only 3 of them. I just figured for whatever reason one of them didn't turn back into a ghost. Then later as I'm going around the screen I notice the green one is staying in the base, just bobbing up and down. I eat a couple of power pellets to see if that will do something but it doesn't. I kind of forget about it then later I notice he's left their base and is back out again. I don't know if this is suppose to happen or not but it seemed strange. I couldn't duplicate it either. I don't know if it has something to do with eating power pellets too closely together or what. The 'Release time' does reset when you lose a life, and as above is the same as the original Ms. Pac-Man for the 7800. I did not change that. Thanks! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Can anyone breakdown in laymen terms what issues arise with the first release and which are now fixed with this updated ROM? I have a CC2 but always try to buy a real copy because I like them and because it supports home-brewers. The first release of the game needed an extra 8K RAM inside the cart. With some 7800 console versions this causes problems in the game (visual glitches and game logic problems). Bob has now removed the need for the additional cart RAM by making the game fit into the console's internal RAM. The latest binary release and CC2 setup are the ones to be working with. Can't help you with your controller problem or cart availability question tho. Over to Bob for those . Thanks to both of you. OK so I may or maynot see problems with my Jr Cart depending on my System model? If thats the case, any date specific models or does the model with side external port mean anything to this issue? in other-words, can i tell if my model is compatible by date, serial #'s or anything? I've been testing with a CX40 and it seems ok to me - if you play the original 7800 Ms. Pac-Man do you get the same thing? The controller code is exactly the save as in that game I haven't really seen any issues besides the sticking problem, almost like he holds a few secs. I will try a cx40 and see if that makes a difference. Jr also seems quite fast, is that normal? and in the 2nd level, after eating power pellet, the ghosts turn blue and back again super quick. This all maybe normal & other than that, I probably wouldn't had even bothered asking about it if I hadn't seen this thread. If I am wasting your time with dumb questions, I apologize. Thanks much, Love the game as I have already PMed you to say. Cheers PS: We are talking about Jr here right? I just noticed you mention MS a few times. Keep that wench out of it for now LOL! I am specifically asking about JR, maybe Im confused? Ms Pacman isnt out yet correct? Edited May 18, 2009 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Can anyone breakdown in laymen terms what issues arise with the first release and which are now fixed with this updated ROM? I have a CC2 but always try to buy a real copy because I like them and because it supports home-brewers. The first release of the game needed an extra 8K RAM inside the cart. With some 7800 console versions this causes problems in the game (visual glitches and game logic problems). Bob has now removed the need for the additional cart RAM by making the game fit into the console's internal RAM. The latest binary release and CC2 setup are the ones to be working with. Can't help you with your controller problem or cart availability question tho. Over to Bob for those . Thanks to both of you. OK so I may or maynot see problems with my Jr Cart depending on my System model? If thats the case, any date specific models or does the model with side external port mean anything to this issue? in other-words, can i tell if my model is compatible by date, serial #'s or anything? I've been testing with a CX40 and it seems ok to me - if you play the original 7800 Ms. Pac-Man do you get the same thing? The controller code is exactly the save as in that game I haven't really seen any issues besides the sticking problem, almost like he holds a few secs. I will try a cx40 and see if that makes a difference. Jr also seems quite fast, is that normal? and in the 2nd level, after eating power pellet, the ghosts turn blue and back again super quick. This all maybe normal & other than that, I probably wouldn't had even bothered asking about it if I hadn't seen this thread. If I am wasting your time with dumb questions, I apologize. Thanks much, Love the game as I have already PMed you to say. Cheers PS: We are talking about Jr here right? I just noticed you mention MS a few times. Keep that wench out of it for now LOL! I am specifically asking about JR, maybe Im confused? Ms Pacman isnt out yet correct? Thanks 1) It works perfectly with a 7800 that has the external side port (the early version). That's the one I have, so when I tested all of the carts initially, everything looked fine. It's the later models without the side port that might have the issue. 2) I mentioned Ms. Pac, because that's the source code framework I started with to make Jr. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) OK so I may or maynot see problems with my Jr Cart depending on my System model? If thats the case, any date specific models or does the model with side external port mean anything to this issue? in other-words, can i tell if my model is compatible by date, serial #'s or anything? If you are on Bob's list for a cart and you haven't received it already then you probably won't experience any problems no matter what version of the console you have (when you receive yours). On the 7800, homebrew carts with only a flash/OTP in should be fine (except in Adept Rapiers case ). EDIT: For clarity. Edited May 18, 2009 by GroovyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas83 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I take it the cart is no longer available, is there any where I can get just the box that was shown? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks again, Groovy Bee @vegas83 - let the dust settle from this last bin post, and I'll go over my list again. We'll see what's going on. Thank you @Phantom - BTW, Your difficulty switches control the speed of the player and the number of starting lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Thanks 1) It works perfectly with a 7800 that has the external side port (the early version). That's the one I have, so when I tested all of the carts initially, everything looked fine. It's the later models without the side port that might have the issue. Thanks guys. I have the side port style on both my CIB and my play console but that is good to know if I should ever need to replace my play console and that makes sense why my version didn't seem to have any of the visual issues that were mentioned. Thanks for clearing that up -Ant Edited May 18, 2009 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) @Phantom - BTW, Your difficulty switches control the speed of the player and the number of starting lives. Doh! Thanks. Brain wasn't thinking, it was in bug detect mode for dummies LOL! Would love a box and manual for this game, it is too pretty not to have one. Thanks again for everything -Ant Edited May 18, 2009 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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