ST was a nice computer!

[Retro Rogue]

The Amiga people knew Jack's cheap tactics well, and that's the reason they avoided him at Atari. Any time you see Jack coming, you know you're likely to be fired in a "cost cutting" measure. I believe the official story goes that Jack (now at Atari) wanted the chipset but not the people. How typically Jack.

 

 

That was stated before Jack bought Atari Consumer, when he visited the company as part of TTL earlier that Spring.

[Retro Rogue]

All I know for certain, from the words of Jay Miner himself in the interviews on record is there was no talk of pre Jack Tramiel Atari, no talk of a deal with them specifically or of any other money other than the $1,000,000 for 1 month deal with Jack Tramiel at Atari again. Jay Miner had used the personal funds from his property to keep the company going is all that is mentioned. They never mentioned anything concrete about a deal with Atari-Warner

 

 

Complete and utter rubbish. Even Jay himself disagrees with you here and states the deal was with pre-Tramiel Atari. Curt and I have the contracts, the design work, the court testimoney, direct talks with people from the Atari Inc. side, direct materials and talks with people from the Atari Corp. side, etc., etc. There was never ever any deal with Jack for $1m, Jay never made a deal with Jack, there was no one month deal, and Jay did not have funds to keep the company going - they could barely make payroll over the period. Hell, we even have a copy of the cashed check from Atari Inc. to Amiga from that March. Most of that BS comes from RJ Mical, who was not involved with any of the business dealings.

Edited October 19, 2009 by wgungfu

[Curt Vendel]

Yeah... no talk of a deal or the elusive $500,000

 

Oh, do you mean THIS $500,000 ???

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/aed/Amiga-check-07MAR84-wm.jpg

 

Gosh, next thing you know, the March 7, 1984 contract might show up, golly gee... you never know what could happen when concrete evidence is unearthed versus going by a "standup comedian" speech from RJ Mical and taking his belching of lies as facts...

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

 

 

All I know for certain, from the words of Jay Miner himself in the interviews on record is there was no talk of pre Jack Tramiel Atari, no talk of a deal with them specifically or of any other money other than the $1,000,000 for 1 month deal with Jack Tramiel at Atari again. Jay Miner had used the personal funds from his property to keep the company going is all that is mentioned. They never mentioned anything concrete about a deal with Atari-Warner but that's not to say initial negotiations didn't go well and then fell through as when talking about 1984 era it was all about the ultimate home games computer not just a console, Jay was adamant his machine would have keyboard ports and all the I/O you see on the A1000 inc the expansion bus, the only thing Commodore forced him to add was an extra 256k RAM expansion panel in the front of the machine.

 

Of course with the "breach of contract" lawsuits flying around, I wouldn't have expected Jay Miner to admit to anything, nor in the settled aftermath.

 

The infamous $500,000 must have been indicative of this elusive deal, however.

[oky2000]

I can only tell you what he spoke of on the History of Amiga video. If he chose to not reveal certain things I am not personally privvy to all I can do is take his word or anyone else from the Amiga design team talking to the camera on that video. Don't shoot the viewer, shoot the actor

[Retro Rogue]

I can only tell you what he spoke of on the History of Amiga video. If he chose to not reveal certain things I am not personally privvy to all I can do is take his word or anyone else from the Amiga design team talking to the camera on that video. Don't shoot the viewer, shoot the actor

 

I watched the history of amiga video, I didn't see Jay say anything about that in there. It was all just RJ with his stage routine, shot seperately from the round table meeting.

 

And the whole "I'm only repeating, don't blame me" thing is ridiculous, you stated "I know for a fact". Not "Well, as far as I know from what was said here....."

Edited October 20, 2009 by wgungfu

[oky2000]

You assume people who built it will tell a truthful story when they are on camera.

[Retro Rogue]

You assume people who built it will tell a truthful story when they are on camera.

 

The only person in that video set talking about "Atari" at any length was RJ, during a seperately filmed stage segment spliced in to the roundtable footage. RJ was not involved in any of the business dealings, he was simply a graphics guy. As RJ has stated in other interviews "many people ask what is truth and what makes a good story, I always go for the good story".

[+wood_jl]

You assume people who built it will tell a truthful story when they are on camera.

 

The only person in that video set talking about "Atari" at any length was RJ, during a seperately filmed stage segment spliced in to the roundtable footage. RJ was not involved in any of the business dealings, he was simply a graphics guy. As RJ has stated in other interviews "many people ask what is truth and what makes a good story, I always go for the good story".

 

For the unenlightened, who is RJ? I have seen reference to a similar comment about this person. I take it this was an Atari insider who tells tall tales?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Retro Rogue]

 

For the unenlightened, who is RJ? I have seen reference to a similar comment about this person. I take it this was an Atari insider who tells tall tales?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

No, an Amiga person who tells tall tales - RJ Mical. Graphics/GUI person on the Amiga and co-designer of what became the Atari Lynx (much to his extreme chagrin).

[kool kitty89]

Some things...

 

1) Comparing the ST or Amiga to SNES or Megadrive is wrong. At the time the ST and Amiga reigned, around 85 to 90, there was basically the NES and the Master System around, which looked really poor compared to the mighty 16-Bitters from Atari and Commodore. The only system in that time, that compared or even surpassed the ST and Amiga was the PC-Engine/TurboGrafx, which came around 1988, and impressed with its almost arcade perfect R-Type port (not ocunting in the Neo Geo here, since that was really only a rich kids toy back then).

 

Well there are a couple things that don't match up compared to NES/SMS, one would be the controllers (ST/Amiga using standard 1-button joysticks compared to 2-button/4-button if you include start/select on SNES, of course you'd need to take keyboard into account as well, but then there's joystick vs gampad, again there were gamepads available for th ecomputers as well -at least later, and Sega pads were compatible) But in th ecase of the ST, audio was weak even compared to NES, and about on par with SMS, plus it was stuck with a simple bitmapped display manipulated by the CPU, no sprites or hardware scrolling. (opposed to Amiga which had sprites and the blitter) Still, games tended to look better on ST than SMS or NES, but there are exceptions. (with the exception of sprite Flicker, the Dizzy games look better on NES imho)

 

2) From todays view, it's nearly incomprehensible, why both companies, Atari and Commodore, were not able to release a new generation of machines with a competitive price around 1989, and instead traversing along their old design almost until their very end. I'd have loved to see a AGA specced Amiga released in the late eighties. The time AGA came out, I didn't care for Amigas anymore, because 386 ATs with 25MHZ, harddisks, VGA gfx capabilities were already crushing what little the Amiga or ST had to offer back then. All the cool games suddenly appeared for PCs, and not for Amiga or ST anymore, or just as halfassed ports (remember Wing Commander, Gunship2000, Doom, etc). Too little too late. But why? I mean, they (Atari) were able to solder together a competitive computer with a good price(the ST) in under a year in 85, so why didn't they do it again in 89/90?

 

Yeah, it seems like they made incrimental improvements (with STe and ECS) rather than pusing soumthing more equivelent to VGA earlier on. (at least something equivelent to mode 13h -320x200x256 colors- in addition to a lower color high res mode) In either case (assuming late '80s) probably 68020 based, rather than th emore expensive 030 (at least for mid-range versions), maybe even with lower-end 68k based units (maybe just faster 68k) utilizing the enhanced video capabilities. (like the MEGA STE, but with the updated video capabilities)

 

Quick answer:

 

For Atari... The Tramiels...

 

For Amiga...well, you know who was over them.

 

If that's in response to the above quoted post, is was under the Tramiels that Atari managed to get the ST to market in the ~1 year period. However, in that same line, by 1989, Jack had stepped asside and Sam had taken over, so this could have something to do with it. (it seem like Sam may not have had the same business managing skills as his father)

As for Commodore, maybe the same kind of thing, their management seems like it was weakening after Jack left, they rode on the success of the Amiga for a while, but then things seem to have started falling apart.

Edited October 29, 2009 by kool kitty89

[kool kitty89]

1) The ST/Amiga ports of R-Type/Outrun/Afterburner/Street Fighter ALL looked worse than the Japanese PC-Engine which was half the price and games cost the same even on import around the same in 1987 just one year after the Amiga was readily on sale....and it was 8/16bit not 16/32bit. I think it's fair to say the Megadrive parallax scrolling + 64 hardware sprites in addition to bliter and 4ch stereo

The bitness refrence doesn't really mean that much in this comparison, comparing a 68k to 65C02 derivative is comparing vastly different processors. (and as I understand it, the 650x of similar clock speed would be a good deal faster for many things)

Also, the Amiga doesn't really have 4 channel stereo, it has 4 mono channels, with a pair hard waired to lest and right speakers. (so sort of 2-stereo/4-mono, with true 2-channel stereo -with panning- possible when channels are paired as 2 stereo channels total, similarly the SNES has 8 mono channels, but not hard wired, such that "hard" left-right-center panning is possible as well as paired channels for true stereo -similar ont the Sega Genesis/MD too for the FM chip -paired or hard panning, with the PSG chip being mono only iirc)

Anyway, not particularly important to this discussion.

 

 

2) Doom certainly was flavour of the decade (and all its imitators) which clearly was suited to the PC's architecture of massive CPU grunt and sod all else Without a 28mhz CPU of some 32bit flavour the ST/Amiga were stuffed. I have run Amiga Wing Commander (horrible game) on an 030 @ 33mhz and it is no different to a slow 486SX or fast 386DX really.

 

On conversions (ports) to other platforms, it would be possible to optimize the game to utilize more hardware though, such as if texture mapping could be done in hardware, or scaled sprites/blitter objects. (I think the Playstation port may have actually been modified to be rendered in polygons as the PSX was faster at this than software raycasting)

Lack of such optimization is often present in sloppy ports, like the Wing Commander port you mention, compare it to the Sega CD version, with 12.5 MHz 68k and graphics ASIC (sort of a flexible blitter, oriented, but not limited to, scaling and rotation) along with stock Genesis hardware, way smoother than the A1200 (or CD32) ports (without CPU accelerators). This is due to utilization of the graphics ASIC (which is particularly suited to a game like Wing Commander), while the Amiga port seems to have avoided using the blitter for help.

[+DarkLord]

As for Commodore, maybe the same kind of thing, their management seems like it was weakening after Jack left, they rode on the success of the Amiga for a while, but then things seem to have started falling apart.

 

Don't forget, Commodore got a ton of mileage from C64 sales, even for quite some time

after the Amiga was introduced. I think also, that Commodore management after Jack was

never happy that Amiga sales didn't reach C64 sales in its heyday.

[kool kitty89]

Definitely, and especially in Europe. (with the sustained popularity of old 8-bit computers -like Amstrad CPC and ZX Spectrum)

[atarian63]

Definitely, and especially in Europe. (with the sustained popularity of old 8-bit computers -like Amstrad CPC and ZX Spectrum)

Probably but it was dead here in the usa by 88.

[kool kitty89]

As I understand it, the eu/uk market was considerably different than US around this time, much more budget market orineted (something that really shifted by the time the Playstation came arround according to people I've talked to), the 8-bit computers competed directly with contemporary game consoles and persisted for what would be kind of rediculously long had it occured in the US. (cassettes were also a much more popular medium for software as I understand if, with floppy disks not becoming as popular and cartridges probably being next after tapes -for games at least)

I think support for such computers (c64 in partcular) lasted at least as long as the NES. I think this was true for the 2600 as well, with the 2600 Jr. remaining viable in Europe/UK a good deal longer than in North America.

[atarian63]

As I understand it, the eu/uk market was considerably different than US around this time, much more budget market orineted (something that really shifted by the time the Playstation came arround according to people I've talked to), the 8-bit computers competed directly with contemporary game consoles and persisted for what would be kind of rediculously long had it occured in the US. (cassettes were also a much more popular medium for software as I understand if, with floppy disks not becoming as popular and cartridges probably being next after tapes -for games at least)

I think support for such computers (c64 in partcular) lasted at least as long as the NES. I think this was true for the 2600 as well, with the 2600 Jr. remaining viable in Europe/UK a good deal longer than in North America.

Yes quite different worlds, must be 8bit system heaven! Would have been nice to have had support here in the US like that for A8,5200,7800.

I suppose the good thing for a UK or euro pc or console owner is you really got the value out of your system! Here it seemed to change about the time things got good..and frequently.

[The_Laird]

As I understand it, the eu/uk market was considerably different than US around this time, much more budget market orineted (something that really shifted by the time the Playstation came arround according to people I've talked to), the 8-bit computers competed directly with contemporary game consoles and persisted for what would be kind of rediculously long had it occured in the US. (cassettes were also a much more popular medium for software as I understand if, with floppy disks not becoming as popular and cartridges probably being next after tapes -for games at least)

I think support for such computers (c64 in partcular) lasted at least as long as the NES. I think this was true for the 2600 as well, with the 2600 Jr. remaining viable in Europe/UK a good deal longer than in North America.

 

Oh yeah you could still buy 2600 games in many retailers like Toys R Us well into the nineties!

[kool kitty89]

Oh yeah you could still buy 2600 games in many retailers like Toys R Us well into the nineties!

 

Did the 2600 outlast the 7800 too, or was there still 7800 stuff available then too?

 

Too bad the A8-bit computers never really broke into that market along with the other 8-bit conputers. (would have been nice to be selling Atari 8-bitters alongside the ST like the C64 was alongside the Amiga, particularly with all the stockpiled hardware and cartridges Atari Corp had left in inventory, maybe if they'd had a market like that, rather than resorting to things like the XEGS)

[+DarkLord]

Too bad the A8-bit computers never really broke into that market along with the other 8-bit conputers. (would have been nice to be selling Atari 8-bitters alongside the ST like the C64 was alongside the Amiga, particularly with all the stockpiled hardware and cartridges Atari Corp had left in inventory, maybe if they'd had a market like that, rather than resorting to things like the XEGS)

 

I can't speak for everyone - but in my area Atari 8bits were sold alongside of the

ST's...and on their own at the local Magic Marts and other stores...

[kool kitty89]

Too bad the A8-bit computers never really broke into that market along with the other 8-bit conputers. (would have been nice to be selling Atari 8-bitters alongside the ST like the C64 was alongside the Amiga, particularly with all the stockpiled hardware and cartridges Atari Corp had left in inventory, maybe if they'd had a market like that, rather than resorting to things like the XEGS)

 

I can't speak for everyone - but in my area Atari 8bits were sold alongside of the

ST's...and on their own at the local Magic Marts and other stores...

 

I meant that they didn't have the same kind of market pennetration as the Spectrum or Amstrad, let alone C64 (inless I'm much mistaken in this assumption), not that A8-bit computers weren't being marketed at all. (the XE Series were sold at the same time as the ST in the US as well, but that doesn't mean they were selling that well -then again, the ST wasn't that big over here either -or the Amiga, though somewhat more popular than the ST line as I understand)

Edited October 31, 2009 by kool kitty89

[Marius]

The Atari ST is a superb machine. I really like it because of different reasons. Music programs are still great, and many game titles are really cool.

 

But I also have to admit, that in the atari line the atari 8bit wins for me. Ofcourse: ST is better in graphics, and has much more power, but for some reason the atari 8bit line is more fun. I think it is cooler to see an 8bit computer running on it's maximum strength than a 16bit computer.

 

Most 16bit computers lack what people call soul.

 

I have this 'soul'-experience much more with atari 800xl and 2600.

 

But I have to admit: i wished there where a few of ST titles on 8bit platform.

 

My favorite games on ST platform are: Addams Family, Bubble Bobble, Outrun, R-Type and a few more.

 

Best is to use both systems, but I don't have space for two setups. So that is why i prefer my 800xl.

 

Nice topic btw.

Marius

[+DarkLord]

 

Most 16bit computers lack what people call soul.

 

I have this 'soul'-experience much more with atari 800xl and 2600.

 

Nice topic btw.

Marius

 

Hi Marius! How's it going - hadn't heard from you in a while.

 

I have to say, the ST line has always been the one with "soul" for me. I tried

the Amiga and so many others and even when technically superior, I always found

them somewhat unsatisfying.

 

From the 6" drop as a cure (direct from Atari Corp. itself!) to the face hidden

in ST Basic, and so much more...well, I was hooked from the get-go, as it were,

on the ST line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my Atari 800Xl too.

[+DarkLord]

I meant that they didn't have the same kind of market pennetration as the Spectrum or Amstrad, let alone C64 (inless I'm much mistaken in this assumption), not that A8-bit computers weren't being marketed at all. (the XE Series were sold at the same time as the ST in the US as well, but that doesn't mean they were selling that well -then again, the ST wasn't that big over here either -or the Amiga, though somewhat more popular than the ST line as I understand)

 

I understand, and you're right about market penetration over-all.

 

I was very fortunate - considering I'm in Eastern Kentucky, that

I had an Atari dealer within 20 minutes of me, through the 80's.

With such a visible presense, Atari was a well known name around

here, and Stan, the dealer was a great guy. He eventually saw the

inevitable writing on the wall, sold his building, and retired to

Florida. He told me he made a small fortune while things were good.

I was always happy about that.

 

Anyways, guess thats why different people see it differently.

[The_Laird]

Oh yeah you could still buy 2600 games in many retailers like Toys R Us well into the nineties!

 

Did the 2600 outlast the 7800 too, or was there still 7800 stuff available then too?

 

Too bad the A8-bit computers never really broke into that market along with the other 8-bit conputers. (would have been nice to be selling Atari 8-bitters alongside the ST like the C64 was alongside the Amiga, particularly with all the stockpiled hardware and cartridges Atari Corp had left in inventory, maybe if they'd had a market like that, rather than resorting to things like the XEGS)

 

Yeah they sold the 7800 and games too. In fact Argos which are a massive catalogue style shop chain over here sold the 7800 and games too. The XE however you only really saw in mail order catalogues although I remember them selling XE's and games on teh local market. There was a guy who sold folk/classical music CD's and strangely also sold Atari 8-Bit stuff (2600, 7800, XL & XE)

[Retro Rogue]

I meant that they didn't have the same kind of market pennetration as the Spectrum or Amstrad, let alone C64 (inless I'm much mistaken in this assumption), not that A8-bit computers weren't being marketed at all. (the XE Series were sold at the same time as the ST in the US as well, but that doesn't mean they were selling that well -then again, the ST wasn't that big over here either -or the Amiga, though somewhat more popular than the ST line as I understand)

 

In the US the Atari 8-bits had 20% of the market as of the end of 1983, and that was with a reported missmanaged underproduction of units, not allowing them to meet actual demand. Commodore and TI each had a 1/3 at that time. Atari actually had 28 percent of the dollar sales because of it's relatively higher priced products. By '84, TI and many of the other low end computer makers had left the market, leaving Commodore and Atari to take over their percentages. Commodore rose to 60% of the "under $500" market between Vic20 and 64 sales (about three million 64's sold by the end of '84). Atari had about 800,000 800xl sales from it's debut in late '83 through '84, and that of course does not include 600xl, 1200xl, etc. sales. which were comparable over their lifetimes. By all those numbers and percentages, Atari 8-bits had pretty good market penetration from '79-'84.