laoo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'm the author of this thingie. Sorry for this windows specific stuff. I'm not skilled in linux programming so there is currently only windows version (and I know I shouldn't use this intrinsic, but happily it's easily substitutable). I'm happy you're trying to port it. It works only through SDL (X11 front-end is not modified to support VBXE). I've attached an ATR image with some original code that runs under VBXE. Please write me about your compilation problems to laoo(at)icomp.pl and I'll try to help. vbxeTest.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urchlay Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 It works only through SDL (X11 front-end is not modified to support VBXE). I've attached an ATR image with some original code that runs under VBXE. Please write me about your compilation problems to laoo(at)icomp.pl and I'll try to help. Thanks for the ATR... At the moment I've got the code so it'll compile, but not link (yet). Hopefully next time you hear from me will be with a patch attached to my post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 ReconsiderAtari design has 30 years now, do You really think spare parts will be there much longer? This is approach in the right direction, no matter what would You write or think One step closer... No. It's not the right direction. If you want to have the "right" atari feeling, after all old Hardware got blown away, you can do something like this: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/atari800/ I think, it is currently the most powerful Atari computer .... But, well.... as fast as it is, it is not able to reproduce the "simple" waves of the real Pokey. Perhaps, in "10" years, after the last A8 has gone, some people may show the A8 emulator with built in VBXE support and tell others "hey, look , it's hardware from 1979... " .... deceiving oneself and others.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) you're comparing another emulator running on plain pc to real hardware - keep this that way vbxe as such don't takes a thing from orginal atari, but adds to it but wait - you're reading this thread on IBM XT equipped with Tandy, or MGA? wait, you've moved to EGA?? since i can't run certain software i've written on pc some time ago (dos based, digging deep into hardware) then its probably not pc anymore? Edited May 19, 2009 by candle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Well, I think any attempt to improve the 400/800/XL/XE's graphics abilities is great, *if* it's readily available to anyone who wants to purchase it. Go buy a PC? Okay, but didn't the PC's graphics abilities evolve quite a bit over time, primarily due to the development of... wait for it... wait for it... new and better graphics cards? So isn't that like saying that if you go out and buy the latest/greatest/most powerful and most highly-accelerated 3D graphics card for your PC, then you aren't being true to the original PC's lesser graphics abilities? I don't know if I'll ever get an actual VBXE card for my Atari-- given the limited production run(s), plus I have no idea how much one costs-- but if I can partake of its benefits on an emulator, then at least I get to see what all the fuss is about. Michael Two important factors to note regarding PCs upgrading video cards: (1) they were backward compatible with older video cards-- EGA ran CGA stuff, MCGA ran EGA stuff, VGA ran MCGA stuff, SVGA ran VGA stuff (and still does if you boot from DOS). (2) The upgrade video cards were available for plugging into slots for those that had older video cards (no soldering required and easy to install). I guess if VBXE doesn't cause conflict with GTIA/CTIA based Atari software and is easy to install, it can be considered like a video card upgrade. At least by having something like this, we have another item to bring to the table in case Apple IIGS fans start claiming they have the best 8-bit machine. I mean if we remove the restriction of being in the 8-bit Era, then there's plenty of time to come up with new hardware anytime you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfdbg Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 like another quest for undiscovered pokey sounds? Well, those "undiscovered" POKEY sounds are a real challenge and, at least , something the real Atari hardware has to offer. So why do Atari fans "undermine" the development of the real Atari? This is still weird .... why do you want to undermine someone elses (not mine!) work?? Undermine? Extension like the VBXE are something like deceiving oneself ... showing how worse the real A8 was. Those Extensions undermine the progress of full supporting the real A8 in all cases. There is so much work to do, to have a relieable emulation, but people decide to import "non original stuff" .... Well, if you want better graphics than the real A8 has to offer, you can buy a PC cheaply.... Seriously, the only one who can change that is you yourself. I'm myself not really aware that any feature of the POKEY is not emulated correctly, except for a perfect SIO sound (i.e. the serial transfer) and the CAS output sound. However, why, in case you think that I missed something, write up a minimal program (source code preferred) that demonstrates the effect that is missing. Note the "minimal", thus there's something to reproduce. Alternatively, you might also want to update the sources itself, that's what they're good for. (-: So long, Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar_robot Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 At least by having something like this, we have another item to bring to the table in case Apple IIGS fans start claiming they have the best 8-bit machine. I mean if we remove the restriction of being in the 8-bit Era, then there's plenty of time to come up with new hardware anytime you want. If combined with a 65816 upgrade then we'll have an "Atari IIGS". The resemblance would get even stronger if the ECI/PBI were brought out to an expansion backplane. Course then everybody will have to indulge a 4000+ thread with the C-64 SuperCPU fanboys....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaGtGruff Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 It's a modified version of Atari++ 1.55, based on looking at the sources. So I guess you'd call it "Atari++ 1.55 VBXE" in your naming scheme? Yes. First I made a folder called VBXE inside my atari++ folder. Then, after I had it decompressed, looked at the readme, and saw that it's a modification of 1.55, I renamed the folder to 1.55 VBXE. I thought about moving the VBXE folder inside the 1.55 folder, but figured it was better to keep it at the same level as the other versions, so I wouldn't "lose" it. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwinslow Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'd like to take a moment to *THANK* Electron, Candle, and Laoo. No matter what you think of the general idea of hardware upgrades to our favorite 8-bit, this is the coolest thing to come along in a long time, and projects like these are very hard to do. Things like this, MG's fantastic MIO project and others are what are keeping the atari alive in a way that no other 8bit community is. So, thanks for all the hard work. We appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookt Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'd like to take a moment to *THANK* Electron, Candle, and Laoo. No matter what you think of the general idea of hardware upgrades to our favorite 8-bit, this is the coolest thing to come along in a long time, and projects like these are very hard to do. Things like this, MG's fantastic MIO project and others are what are keeping the atari alive in a way that no other 8bit community is. So, thanks for all the hard work. We appreciate it. Agreed. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I am absolutely clueless with Linux, will this be implemented in any of the windows emulators (or the xbox-Shannon?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 mimo, but whats the problem? You got tarball compilable under Microsoft Visual C, and executable to not have to compile a thing! just run it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 mimo, but whats the problem? You got tarball compilable under Microsoft Visual C, and executable to not have to compile a thing!just run it Like I said, what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 ReconsiderAtari design has 30 years now, do You really think spare parts will be there much longer? This is approach in the right direction, no matter what would You write or think One step closer... No. It's not the right direction. If you want to have the "right" atari feeling, after all old Hardware got blown away, you can do something like this: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/atari800/ I think, it is currently the most powerful Atari computer .... But, well.... as fast as it is, it is not able to reproduce the "simple" waves of the real Pokey. Perhaps, in "10" years, after the last A8 has gone, some people may show the A8 emulator with built in VBXE support and tell others "hey, look , it's hardware from 1979... " .... deceiving oneself and others.... It looks weird; sort of like transplanting animal organs with a human or something like that. I rather have the Atari motherboard w/o the case than having an Atari w/internals of a PC. Same for PC, let it be what it is. What a stupid thing to do -- put a CD/DVD drive where the joystick ports are-- that's one of the things thats unique among 8-bit Ataris and worse on PC. I would agree that POKEY sounds are impossible to do exactly using standard PC hardware (beeps or sound blaster); however with all these non-standard audio boards out there, someone could possible hack into some of their hardware and do some low-level stuff similar to POKEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 At least by having something like this, we have another item to bring to the table in case Apple IIGS fans start claiming they have the best 8-bit machine. I mean if we remove the restriction of being in the 8-bit Era, then there's plenty of time to come up with new hardware anytime you want. If combined with a 65816 upgrade then we'll have an "Atari IIGS". The resemblance would get even stronger if the ECI/PBI were brought out to an expansion backplane. Course then everybody will have to indulge a 4000+ thread with the C-64 SuperCPU fanboys....... Do they actually use those expansion slots for anything? I would think once you put in some REAL hardware upgrade hacks available like quad-POKEY, accelerator, and VBXE, you should be able to out-do the Apple IIGS. Even just VBXE would give Atari the edge of IIGS given IIGS has no blitter and would waste it's 2.8Mhz speed copying graphics data. And IIGS does have a GUI so it would be doing a lot of graphical manipulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) I'll second the thanks. I think this mod is awesome! Just got done reading a great book. The purists -vs- the enhanceers! What a wonderful problem to have actually. With stuff like the high speed SIO happening, this mod makes a lot of sense. Besides, isn't the pure Atari basically still there? If so, what's the big deal? I sure don't see a downside, but for building up an audience. Looks like a nice modded machines niche for somebody. Or the perfect roll your own deal. Start with a video mod, then do RAM, then do graphics. For people that like the hardware tinkering, this is really cool. Edited May 19, 2009 by potatohead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I'll second the thanks. I think this mod is awesome! Just got done reading a great book. The purists -vs- the enhanceers! What a wonderful problem to have actually. With stuff like the high speed SIO happening, this mod makes a lot of sense. Besides, isn't the pure Atari basically still there? If so, what's the big deal? I sure don't see a downside, but for building up an audience. Looks like a nice modded machines niche for somebody. Or the perfect roll your own deal. Start with a video mod, then do RAM, then do graphics. For people that like the hardware tinkering, this is really cool. The purists -vs- the enhanceers! That happens with old cars as well. Some people feel that they should only be restored to 100% factory original, complete with mistakes. Others like to do it better, and still others prefer to mod and enhance. I'm just glad for any interest in the 8-bit platform. I've been a user since 1982 and I have no plans of stopping anytime soon. I keep some of my machines original, and I mod others. Stephen Anderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Me too. I love 8 bit computing. My only issue right now is time. I want more of it. Right now, people can do micro-controllers for a wonderful 8 bit like experience, but with higher clock speeds and lots of custom graphics. I'm having a great time there. Problem there is smaller audiences, and no assembled systems to home brew for. I love home brew huge! Enhancing 8 bit computers brings the chance to port more of the 8 bit era, and build more of those kinds of games. I love Atari, but it is limited in some ways. Don't get me wrong, the art is wonderful. Just look at the RAM games being made. That's cool stuff. YOOMP! Space Harrier TEMPEST EXTREME and others are absolutely fantastic projects that show off the very best of our machines. There are ongoing hacks too. Vertical interlace, colors, that cartridge luma mod deal. All pushing what should have failed long ago. Excellent. I don't see those activities changing all that much. VBXE seems to be the kind of thing that will bring in people who have higher expectations. At some point, the hobby continues to need new blood. And, for the somewhat retro crowd, like those people banging on micros, it presents a system where one can make a cart and do home brew. Win-win as far as I am concerned. Another area is taking games and adding VBXE to them. You just know somebody is gonna go down that road. It could be used very lightly to spruce up some excellent games, or make a port possible. At the end of the day, we've a nice 8 bit machine driving the thing. It's all good. --better than the endless stream of new consoles that flash in the pan, or see niche use without any real roots. Things like the game park interest me, but it's not really retro. I would rather work with a micro, where skills in hardware and software are relevant, and or augment older machines. Putting CPU's in carts, for example. The Harmony project and the luma mod project are excellent as they bring out more of the original. Those projects are not possible without melding some new tech with old. So why not do it for graphics? Technically, this is a home run too. Love it. The authors should feel really good about having gotten it done in such a creative way as to not break the old school attributes of the machine. Only problem is getting a batch of them built, or making it simple to mod machines. I know I'm saving my pennies to buy some stuff. Hoping to start a home brew project too. It's great to see Atari stuff happening. What's wrong with that? Anyone that wants to stay old school can and will probably keep the largest audience. There are no worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I've attached an ATR image with some original code that runs under VBXE. Well, I've just run the demo and I can't say I wasn't excited to see 8x8 80 column text scrolling across the top line of the screen. Any chance of the source code to these small programs? When I get back into working on LW I could work on making it support VBXE's 80 column mode (providing the code overhead isn't too great) if it detects the hardware when it runs. Ideally it would work seamlessly: VBXE users would get clearer, faster 80 column text but the program would still work as before on machines without the upgrade. I suspect that the code overhead will be large enough, however, to require VBXE support to be built into a LW add-on package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Flashjazzcat: download VBXE package v1.09 from atariarea or atarionline sites, there are sources for every example provided Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwhyte Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Righteous!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I am not really looking to do 80 column applications on an Atari 8-bit, but rather use VBXE more for game sprites than anything. If someone want to display text for scores, titles, and other game related text messages, most will just use Antic Modes 2 & 6. The Atari is more of a video game machine and anyone serious about word processing like applications would just use a PC or MAC. I am personally excited about its sprite capabilities. Since I retain the source code for several game projects, would not mind developing VBXE ports of my games. I just need to find some docs on how to use the thing in assembly. I cannot disagree with what some people are saying about developing for a narrow market right now that there is little chance of making a major profit. Maybe if we used carts big enough to include both VBXE and Standard Graphics versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 some facts about the cart internals: 32Mbit (4Mbytes) flash device in tsop48 package costs about $2, 512kbit (64kbytes) flash device in dip32 package costs about $5 glue logic in both cases stays the same - another $2 VBXE docs in English are published in VBXE 2 thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 any ideas why my fire does not work with core 1.09 while the plasma demo works? and with the latest 1.55 build the test atr crashes with illegial opcode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atx4us Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Long waited support for VBXE graphics card is now released including source code you can download it from here Candle, Are there any sample programs that we can use to try out the VBXE extension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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