LCD TV Choice

[flashjazzcat]

Rather than go down the VGA scan converter route, I've decided it would be more flexible to replace my Samsung Syncmaster 2032BW TFT monitor with a hybrid LCD TV/Monitor with S-Video and composite inputs for the 8-Bit and the ST. The 8-Bit will go in via S-video, and the ST via VGA/Composite (high and medium/low res respectively). I've found two good bargains and I'm trying to decide between them:

 

First, the Samsung SM2032MW 20" TFT:

 

SM2032MW

 

This has no freeview tuner, just analogue, but that's not really an issue since I usually watch freeview through the PC's tuner card. Desktop resolution of 1680x1050 is identical to my current monitor, but this one has s-video, composite, DVI and VGA inputs.

 

On the other hand, if I'm going for an upgrade anyway, for another £60 I could get this:

 

LG M227WD

 

This is a 22" TFT with a 1920x1080 (HD) resolution, freeview tuner, and a fantastic range of inputs for a monitor of its price range (including s-video, composite, HD, VGA, DVI, etc). Hopefully the PC will handle the huge desktop real-estate OK. I'm kind of torn between the two. The LG looks fantastic, but the Samsung - being a two year old model - is such a bargain and nearly identical to my current set-up. I guess it's a question of what's the better investment in the long term. I think I know the answer already...

[Rybags]

LCD TVs seem to be a comparative ripoff when pit against LCD DVI monitors of the same size/resolution.

 

At least these 2 seem to have DVI... VGA on it's own isn't much of a selling point because a PC driven LCD through a VGA port looks markedly inferior compared to using DVI.

 

But, as you say, you'll be running your old gear on it.

 

1960x1080 is a pretty sweet monitor resolution - full HD without need for any downscaling.

 

The disadvantage is that when it comes time to play PC games, you need a right kickarse 3D card to drive the thing for most modern games. Then again, it's not a great deal more than 1680x1050 which in itself requires a fair bit of grunt for gaming.

[candle]

atariwise - choose philips

samsung will give you all but trubles, lg is more tolerant, but it may be pain in the ass

[Rybags]

Yeah, that's a point.

 

It seems some modern LCD TVs, and other gear like HDD Recorders just don't like the old gear with their non-standard progressive video.

Well worthwhile trying before you buy, or at least get verification that it behaves all right from someone with similar setup to yours.

[Jetboot Jack]

I'd suggest checking the TV's have RGB scart, 'cos that's the ONLY proper way to use an ST in Lo/Medium res!!!

 

sTeVE

[JamesD]

I've had mixed results with LCD TVs. A 15" Magnavox LCDTV I purchased just for my old machines doesn't work. A cheap 19" LCD TV (can't remember the name) seemed to work and so does my 37" VIZIO.

[Atari8guy]

atariwise - choose philips

samsung will give you all but trubles, lg is more tolerant, but it may be pain in the ass

I used a Samsung SyncMaster and it works great for my Atari.

 

I also have a Media Center PC hooked to a 42 Inch Samsung and it works great too....

 

Just my experience, but Samsung works for me. Of course I"m NTSC so that might be a factor for the Atari.

[candle]

there was a discussion on atariarea about samsung not syncing at all with pal atari (xe series)

i personally have only experience with lg and philips, and philips wins here - lg has color issues (wrong or no color at random, or heavly blinking picture - some mods in atari nessesary to get it stabilised, s-video mod alone does not much )

[flashjazzcat]

Loads of opinions here - thanks people! Seems like it might be a good idea to take the Atari and a PSU into the shop and try it out.

 

Just doing a bit more reading up: this is going to be especially complicated since the monitor is intended to work with the ST and the 8-bit. The analogue frequency range of the LG means it SHOULD work with the ST in hi-res mode (using a VGA adapter). Low and medium res with the ST isn't such an issue since I rarely use them. Over at Atari Forum, the best screen by far if you don't want ST hi-res (which is outside the monitor's frequency range) is apparently the Sharp LD19D1EBK, which reportedly gives a flawless picture with various 8-bits via s-video, as well as with the ST using composite in Low/Medium res. Shame it's only a 19" panel; the low resolution and the fact it won't handle ST VGA output means it's a non-starter for me.

 

S-video seems to be becoming more and more scarce on new TFT panels, so now seems to be a good time to buy if you can find something that works. With the LG, the jump in resolution is a concern (I'm using an 8600GT graphics card), but then again I do very little gaming. If I'm buying at Richer Sounds, it really is between the 22" LG and the 20" Samsung (assuming either one works, of course). It may or may not be pertinent that the little LCD TV I'm using with the Atari 8-bit at the moment does handle the s-video signal very nicely indeed and is an LG. I've really set myself the challenge of finding a true all-in-one solution which will handle 8-bit, ST and PC. Not going to be easy. I'm also wondering if the 16:9 aspect ratio of the LG isn't going to stretch the Atari picture somewhat...

Edited May 24, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[Rybags]

Another point to insist on - ability to force a particular Aspect Ratio.

 

Although plenty of people still use them to hook VCRs up to, so they should have a way to set 4:3 pillarboxed.

[emkay]

You know what? I still own standard 4:3 CRT TV sets and 5:4 PC Monitors.

And I'll keep them, until there is no real better techinque then CRT available.

 

I dislike 16:9 because I don't like cutted heads and bodys...

I dislike the colours of all TFT technique based screen...

 

Biggest utter crap is 16:9 for Computerdisplays, because letters are higher than wide. And if you want to show portrait photos, 3/4 of the screen gets blank.

 

Not to tell about the "glare" displays.

 

This all reminds me a bit of the C64 hype in the 80s. It's new, it's cool. And at the end it is a simple marketing strategy.

 

IT is said:

 

-16:9 is a better view for the eyes

-TFT has all needed colours

-High Glare is the best of the best.

 

 

IT is reality:

 

-Workplace Displays still use 5:4 (4:3) and antireflexion coating. Otherwise the owner of a business has to fear that his employees get sick more often.

-Film and Photo related studios still use CRTs, if they want to keep the colours as original as possible. You can see right on the first sight of a Game-Screenshot, whether a developer has used a CRT or a TFT display.

 

 

My only fears belong to the facts that the displays in sometime will get broken, or the HDMI decoder is requiered for watching a movie/TV. And there is no really better choice of displays to buy.

 

Let's hope that Laser TV (100% correct colours) and/or the SED (cathode ray diodes) technique will come fast with a reasonable prizing, and that 16:9 (next time we can buy 21:9 displays ...) will be a fast ending nightmare.

[Divya16]

Another point to insist on - ability to force a particular Aspect Ratio.

 

Although plenty of people still use them to hook VCRs up to, so they should have a way to set 4:3 pillarboxed.

 

What about plasma flat TVs; are they worse than TFTs or just more expensive?

[candle]

from mine personal experience - far better, but, when it comes to power consumption ones has to reconsider from time to time

in my opinion - if someone is looking for crisp, vivid colors then plasma seems the best

there are also led backlighted lcd with dynamic backlight giving them 120% of colour gammut of CRT technology, and they are real eye candy to look at - wish they would be cheaper though

since i'm repair tech for displays (working with both tehcnologies) i got some comparasment - even when comparing barco pcd series of high-end dtp monitors to those led backlighted lcds - and they are comparable...

 

then again - atari wise - need to hook up to the atari if they let you, otherwise you will be buying cat in the bag (or whatever english expression is )

[Tezz]

...And I'll keep them, until there is no real better techinque then CRT available.

that's true in many ways although lcd panels (especially with led backlight) have come a long way the last 2-years however once the much anticipated oled panels become affordable and are able to be produced in larger sizes, LCD and Plasma will be a thing of the past.

[Jetboot Jack]

Flashjazzcat - why do you want to hook up the ST via composite? You've mentioned it twice. Why not scart RGB?

 

sTeVE

[flashjazzcat]

Flashjazzcat - why do you want to hook up the ST via composite? You've mentioned it twice. Why not scart RGB?

The ST will almost always be hooked up via VGA (in mono), but I have no particular preference when it comes to low/medium res. The composite leads will plug into a scart adapter; if this brings an increase in quality, I'll go down that route.

 

Well, I've just this minute arrived home with the Samsung SM2032MW after a long and arduous journey to Richer Sounds in Newcastle. I tried the 8-bit in the 32" Samsung panel downstairs this morning and it worked great. The bigger TV is of a similar vintage to the 2032MW so I'm hoping for the best. The staff were very helpful and are happy to give me an exchange if the Samsung doesn't work out. I'll post my findings later on. It has a really good range of inputs and I'm hoping for a picture as good as the one on the big Samsung downstairs, which was really excellent and rock solid (albeit in mono as with all TVs I try at the moment because my s-video cable is kaput and I'm waiting for a replacement).

[WizWor]

What about plasma flat TVs; are they worse than TFTs or just more expensive?

I use my NTSC A8s with a CRT when possible (I still have 1x25" and 2x27" CRTs in my home). I have, however, used one with an LCD (camping). The CRT is much better. Something with the way they do colors is responsible, I think. I haven't plugged one into my plasma, but I can -- if anyone is interested.

 

We use a PS3 with the plasma. That's amazing, but that's another world.

 

When I was shopping for a big tv, I found a lot of interesting information and have collected the links and my thoughts here.

 

In my opinion, plasma looks much better than LCD at the same price point. The only downside is that the screen is glass -- highly reflective. You can mitigate this by mounting the TV at a slightly forward angle, but curtains and shades work best. At sized up to 50 inches, 720p looks great and there are some good values out there.

[flashjazzcat]

The SM2032MW works: Picture is as good as with the 32" TV, no flicker, although it's hard to judge since I'm using an s-video cable with a broken chroma line until a replacement arrives. If VGA from the ST works, too, this is exactly the set I've been looking for.

 

I'll post some screen shots later when I get everything set up properly.

 

...Just tried ST hi-res and it's perfect. Will try ST low/medium res later. If the 8-bit picture is good when I get the new cable, this is a brilliant all-in-one solution.

 

And some photos:

 

 

 

 

 

I'll try some video when I get the colour working (I've tried re-wiring the cable but the chroma is well and truly gone: it's mono with the known compatible TFT as well). The only thing I don't like and which can only be conveyed in video is what I would call "over processing" when the screen image changes during screen writes. Pixels accasionally flip-flop on and off around the edges of characters when there's movement on the screen. The overall effect is pleasing, though. Can't wait to get the colour working.

Edited May 25, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[candle]

try 8bit atari hi-res interlaced modes

[flashjazzcat]

try 8bit atari hi-res interlaced modes

I will when I get the new cable.

 

ST medium/low res using composite-in is disgustingly bad. Hopefully SCART will work better, but I use hi-res 99% of the time anyway. ST VGA actually looks better than on the 2023BW.

 

Hopefully the new cable will arrive tomorrow, then I can check for vertical colour banding, etc.

[Jetboot Jack]

I warned ya - ST lo/med res ONLY looks acceptable on RGB

 

Hooked via RGB scart to a range of LCD/Plasma panels (SONY Bravia 32" LCD, Toshiba 19" LCD and Pioneer 60" Plasma) ST's look great

 

sTeVE

[ClausB]

I have, however, used one with an LCD (camping).

Tent - check!

Sleeping bags - check!

Lantern - check!

Wood - check!

Beans - check!

Atari - check!

Wizards - check!

Plasma - check! No, wait, take the LCD. We are roughing it, remember?

[candle]

ClausB: have forgot 'bout that diesel power generator

[atariksi]

try 8bit atari hi-res interlaced modes

I will when I get the new cable.

 

ST medium/low res using composite-in is disgustingly bad. Hopefully SCART will work better, but I use hi-res 99% of the time anyway. ST VGA actually looks better than on the 2023BW.

 

Hopefully the new cable will arrive tomorrow, then I can check for vertical colour banding, etc.

 

What about Atari 8-bit overscan? Some displays show more overscan area than others. Try the POKE 559,35 in text mode and see how many chars are visible.

[atariksi]

What about plasma flat TVs; are they worse than TFTs or just more expensive?

I use my NTSC A8s with a CRT when possible (I still have 1x25" and 2x27" CRTs in my home). I have, however, used one with an LCD (camping). The CRT is much better. Something with the way they do colors is responsible, I think. I haven't plugged one into my plasma, but I can -- if anyone is interested.

 

We use a PS3 with the plasma. That's amazing, but that's another world.

 

When I was shopping for a big tv, I found a lot of interesting information and have collected the links and my thoughts here.

 

In my opinion, plasma looks much better than LCD at the same price point. The only downside is that the screen is glass -- highly reflective. You can mitigate this by mounting the TV at a slightly forward angle, but curtains and shades work best. At sized up to 50 inches, 720p looks great and there are some good values out there.

 

That's an interesting point you make in that article regarding motion blurring; now is the field shifting vertically by one scanline every 1/60 or is it also shifting horizontally by half a color clock (given it's 227.5 color clocks/line)? If it's doing both, that would give impression of not only twice refresh rate but also of 4X higher resolution rather than 2X.