LCD TV Choice

[atariksi]

You know what? I still own standard 4:3 CRT TV sets and 5:4 PC Monitors.

And I'll keep them, until there is no real better techinque then CRT available.

 

I dislike 16:9 because I don't like cutted heads and bodys...

I dislike the colours of all TFT technique based screen...

 

Biggest utter crap is 16:9 for Computerdisplays, because letters are higher than wide. And if you want to show portrait photos, 3/4 of the screen gets blank.

 

Not to tell about the "glare" displays.

 

This all reminds me a bit of the C64 hype in the 80s. It's new, it's cool. And at the end it is a simple marketing strategy.

 

IT is said:

 

-16:9 is a better view for the eyes

-TFT has all needed colours

-High Glare is the best of the best.

 

 

IT is reality:

 

-Workplace Displays still use 5:4 (4:3) and antireflexion coating. Otherwise the owner of a business has to fear that his employees get sick more often.

-Film and Photo related studios still use CRTs, if they want to keep the colours as original as possible. You can see right on the first sight of a Game-Screenshot, whether a developer has used a CRT or a TFT display.

 

 

...

 

Yeah, I don't like these new ratio screens that cut off pictures regardless of how you set the zoom; otherwise, you have to shorten the screen size and waste a few inches of your screen. I have a 23" LCD, but only on HDTV signal does it actually use the 23". Otherwise, either you crop the picture or you have to use a smaller portion of the screen.

 

Regarding colors being off, yeah it seems like the negative things are not stressed in the marketing but the convenience of light weight seems to outweigh the things that aren't correct for most people. Even the contrast ratio and angles where you can view the image is limited with TFT. I have a bigger problem with all the MP3 crap-- it's inferior to 16-bit linear uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) audio, but all the hype/marketing makes it like a normal/standard thing.

[flashjazzcat]

Still can't fully test the TV yet because the s-video cable hasn't arrived. Are the Atari s-video cables compatible with C64 ones? There's a UK seller doing C64 cables...

[candle]

well.. you would be more lucky making your own one, than making the c64 work

atari uses din-5, c64 uses din-7 and the other one din-7...

why won't you test the i-lace without s-video cable? reason i ask is some "features" my 37" has - they can be turned off eventually, but it took me a while to figure them out

 

result was - no interlaec at all... tv would memorize random combination of pixels from two frames rather than display flickering picture...

[flashjazzcat]

well.. you would be more lucky making your own one, than making the c64 work

atari uses din-5, c64 uses din-7 and the other one din-7...

why won't you test the i-lace without s-video cable? reason i ask is some "features" my 37" has - they can be turned off eventually, but it took me a while to figure them out

 

result was - no interlaec at all... tv would memorize random combination of pixels from two frames rather than display flickering picture...

Thanks - I wasn't sure what kind of DIN plug the C64 used. The Atari cable is coming from the USA but is taking some time in the post. I've already hacked up the exisitng (faulty) cable in an attempt to fix the broken colour wire but the break is obviously further down. Tell you what: it's late now, but regardless of whether I have a working cable tomorrow I'll test the interlace with both the faulted s-video lead and the RF cable just for good measure. I'll post pics.

[candle]

fjc, tell you what - go to the nearest a/v store, buy standard s-video cable, cut the plug on the one end and marry it with din5 connector from that broken one

why would you even bother to get s-video cable from the states at first place?

this is not rocket science - just few wires to solder

you can even go low-tek and use heated up nail to do that

[WizWor]

What about plasma flat TVs; are they worse than TFTs or just more expensive?

I use my NTSC A8s with a CRT when possible (I still have 1x25" and 2x27" CRTs in my home). I have, however, used one with an LCD (camping). The CRT is much better. Something with the way they do colors is responsible, I think. I haven't plugged one into my plasma, but I can -- if anyone is interested.

 

We use a PS3 with the plasma. That's amazing, but that's another world.

 

When I was shopping for a big tv, I found a lot of interesting information and have collected the links and my thoughts here.

 

In my opinion, plasma looks much better than LCD at the same price point. The only downside is that the screen is glass -- highly reflective. You can mitigate this by mounting the TV at a slightly forward angle, but curtains and shades work best. At sized up to 50 inches, 720p looks great and there are some good values out there.

 

That's an interesting point you make in that article regarding motion blurring; now is the field shifting vertically by one scanline every 1/60 or is it also shifting horizontally by half a color clock (given it's 227.5 color clocks/line)? If it's doing both, that would give impression of not only twice refresh rate but also of 4X higher resolution rather than 2X.

I'm not an engineer or even a TV salesman. It has to do with the size and shape of the pixels, that they are perfectly lit or perfectly off, and how fast they are refreshed. Plasma or phosphors go bright then dim and I guess that comes across as smooth to our brains. That's how it was explained to me, anyway. If you can't see it or don't watch tv where this is a factor, don't look for it. It's just something that really ruined LCD TV for me. In fact, there are three aspects of an LCD displays that are obvious to my eye that I don't care for...

 

1) motion blur -- especially obvious watching sports (hockey, football, auto racing)

2) diminished image at wide angles

3) not very black

 

If I brought you into a retail outlet, you could easily see blur with the right sports programming -- once I pointed it out. No LCD I could afford wasn't affected by this. If I had you walk to one side of the wall of TVs and look back to the other side, you'd be able to easily distinguish the plasmas from the LCDs as the LCDs look washed out. This was a big deal to me because most of the seats in my living room are to one side or the other. The lack of blackness is not noticable until you sit in your darkened living room to watch a dark movie. Black is kind of dark gray.

 

Another quality that affected my impression of a set was color. Maybe the term is fidelity. I didn't have meters to measure color -- just my eyes. I spent a lot of time looking and found some sets never seemed to achieve a satisfying color to me. Other sets I could adjust, but each change of programming meant more diddling.

 

For me, these qualities were much more apparent than 720/768p vs 1080p.

 

I would not use my opinion or even an expert's to decide on a set. Get what looks good to you. I put the links up to draw attention to what I thought were important factors to consider. Instead of saying, "Get this," or "Stay away from that," I tried to link articles that helped me carefully look at TVs -- look at things that I might have otherwise missed. By the time I handed over my credit card, I was very confident I'd love the set. Eight months later, I'm still in love

[+Stephen]

I'm not an engineer or even a TV salesman. It has to do with the size and shape of the pixels, that they are perfectly lit or perfectly off, and how fast they are refreshed. Plasma or phosphors go bright then dim and I guess that comes across as smooth to our brains. That's how it was explained to me, anyway. If you can't see it or don't watch tv where this is a factor, don't look for it. It's just something that really ruined LCD TV for me. In fact, there are three aspects of an LCD displays that are obvious to my eye that I don't care for...

 

1) motion blur -- especially obvious watching sports (hockey, football, auto racing)

2) diminished image at wide angles

3) not very black

 

If I brought you into a retail outlet, you could easily see blur with the right sports programming -- once I pointed it out. No LCD I could afford wasn't affected by this. If I had you walk to one side of the wall of TVs and look back to the other side, you'd be able to easily distinguish the plasmas from the LCDs as the LCDs look washed out. This was a big deal to me because most of the seats in my living room are to one side or the other. The lack of blackness is not noticable until you sit in your darkened living room to watch a dark movie. Black is kind of dark gray.

 

Another quality that affected my impression of a set was color. Maybe the term is fidelity. I didn't have meters to measure color -- just my eyes. I spent a lot of time looking and found some sets never seemed to achieve a satisfying color to me. Other sets I could adjust, but each change of programming meant more diddling.

 

For me, these qualities were much more apparent than 720/768p vs 1080p.

 

I would not use my opinion or even an expert's to decide on a set. Get what looks good to you. I put the links up to draw attention to what I thought were important factors to consider. Instead of saying, "Get this," or "Stay away from that," I tried to link articles that helped me carefully look at TVs -- look at things that I might have otherwise missed. By the time I handed over my credit card, I was very confident I'd love the set. Eight months later, I'm still in love

I agree with all of that. I'll also add something I've noticed with DLP technology. My eyes are insanely sensitive to flicker. I cannot use a CRT computer monitor at anything under 75Hz or it looks like a strobe light to me. So I am really sensitive to the "rainbow" effect that DLP sets produce. The best way to see it is run something that does white text on a black backgruond. Gently move your eyes from side to side. The white letters leave behind colored tracers. Very distracting. On the plus side, many people don't notice this, and you get much blacker blacks, and almost no "screen door" effect (black lines between every pixel) with the DLP sets. I have a widescreen CRT TV for everyday viewing, and a DLP projector for movies & gaming. I have yet to try any of my Atari 8-bits with either display.

 

Stephen Anderson

[Jetboot Jack]

I agree DLP is nasty I've come back to projectors time and time again, and 100% failed to see why anyone would want a DLP system, the color artifacts are just too distracting...

 

However I would like to leap to the defense of LCD TV's (and Plasma unit's too).

 

I personally find the new SONY X series EXTREMELY good, and yes I do watch HD material (HDDVD/BLURAY/SKY/DOWNLOADED) - and nothing from the CRT world comes close in terms of PQ - not just resolution, but also color depth (including inky blacks) and image stability (the system does 240Hz scanning). Having said that I find my Pioneer Plasma even better when watching 24fps movies

 

I do own a 40" HD crt too - and by comparison the PQ is noteably worse, just not as vivid, not as 3D as the LCD/Plasma screens (it's a 2003 SONY broadcast unit).

 

I would recommend LCD TV based on my experiences without hesitation - technology is moving on, it's like people who still insist vinyl is better than CD

 

sTeVE

[atariksi]

Still can't fully test the TV yet because the s-video cable hasn't arrived. Are the Atari s-video cables compatible with C64 ones? There's a UK seller doing C64 cables...

 

The luminance, audio out, and video out pins are compatible and in same place. If you cut off the extra pins (if they are there), the DIN-7 will fit in DIN-5.

[flashjazzcat]

fjc, tell you what - go to the nearest a/v store, buy standard s-video cable, cut the plug on the one end and marry it with din5 connector from that broken one

why would you even bother to get s-video cable from the states at first place?

this is not rocket science - just few wires to solder

you can even go low-tek and use heated up nail to do that

Soldering is no problem: I bought the cable last year before I had any soldering equipment or skill, and I figured I might as well exchange it since it's faulted. Still, I'll make my own since the replacement still isn't here. I've just pulled the 5-pin din apart (hard to do since it was sealed with glue), and I'm now trying to figure out the wiring. The chroma is wired to what looks like a capacitor but is presumably a resistor (IN5400?). Two wires from the s-video are wired to ground, as are one wire each from the audio and composite cables. The Atari's composite video pin isn't wired to anything (?) - explains why the composite plug never worked with this cable. Instead, the two RCA jacks are wired to the audio pin. Then there's just the luma line.

 

Presumably it would be better to wire one of the RCA jacks to composite video, to create a true dual-purpose cable. Will the cable work without resistor, or should I leave it be? Now looking for an old s-video cable to cut up...

[atariksi]

...The Atari's composite video pin isn't wired to anything (?) - explains why the composite plug never worked with this cable....

Presumably it would be better to wire one of the RCA jacks to composite video, to create a true dual-purpose cable. ..

 

You can also get the composite video output by using a Y-cable to merge luminance and chrominance signals without having to break the cable and do any soldering. But since some machines don't have chroma signal, it's better to use the composite video connector.

[flashjazzcat]

The solder joins on the din plug were pretty ropey so I decided to strip everything back and rewire it. It hasn't made much difference. S-video is now deplorably bad, and composite - although it now works quite well (since I wired one of the RCA jacks to the correct pin), is monochrome. I find this quite alarming. RF output is in colour but of predictably low quality. This is really infuriating. An intermittent fault on the old s-video cable originally resulted in the mono output. Strapping the cable up with some tape to put a kink in it kept the colour working for a while. I can understand there still being a break somewhere in the chroma line (since I couldn't find another s-video cable to strip), but composite video being mono is worrying. I hope there isn't a problem at the Atari end...

 

RF input:

 

 

Composite video:

 

 

S-video:

 

Edited May 27, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[candle]

fjc: you wired composite signal to where luminance should go on s-video, and luminance where composite should go in composiste

[flashjazzcat]

fjc: you wired composite signal to where luminance should go on s-video, and luminance where composite should go in composiste

Brilliant! Thanks. All is as it was before now, except that I now have composite as well. Not that it's worth having... s-video is STILL mono. Can't believe I couldn't find an s-video cable to strip...

[flashjazzcat]

I got the colour working on the s-video cable by wiring up the chroma separately. The picture's still quite bad, though, because the capacitor that was originally wired to the chroma at the DIN end isn't fitted. I don't recall exactly how it was fitted: I think one end was attached to the chroma signal (going to s-video), while the other was wired to both the Atari chroma pin and ground. Does that make sense?

[+bob1200xl]

The 1N5400 is a diode - leave it out. There shouldn't be any components in the cable, just wire. What is bad? S-video?

 

Bob

 

 

 

I got the colour working on the s-video cable by wiring up the chroma separately. The picture's still quite bad, though, because the capacitor that was originally wired to the chroma at the DIN end isn't fitted. I don't recall exactly how it was fitted: I think one end was attached to the chroma signal (going to s-video), while the other was wired to both the Atari chroma pin and ground. Does that make sense?

[candle]

they should have s-video cables in tesco - don't get the fancy ones, cheapest should do

and Bob is right - there shouldn't be any componensts beside the cable - i think someone was making composite out of luma/chroma rather than wireing them to proper pins of mini-din4 plug

picture of what you're getting on screen now would be apropriate

[flashjazzcat]

I got a cheapo s-video cable today and wired it up WITHOUT the diode. Here's the result on the Samsung:

 

 

Here's the result on the smaller LG LCD TV I was using previously:

 

 

The LG is showing vertical banding that wasn't there when the diode was present (or, in any case, before the old cable lost the colour). Clearly it's far more pleasing than the Samsung, though. I wonder if the Samsung's problem is an amplified version of the banding on the LG, and can it be toned down? So frustrating, when the Samsung's mono s-video picture was damn near perfect.

 

...results with the diode fitted. Connected in line with chroma, not connected to ground:

 

 

 

Better, but now with terrible scan lines. I hope this Samsung doesn't have to go back... Works PERFECTLY on the 32" Samsung downstairs, but I don't the the wife will let me use that for the PC!

Edited May 28, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[candle]

fjc: still wired it wrong! you got CVBS signal going to Luminance input of S-VHS connector, - this is what you see as those mosaic patterns

[flashjazzcat]

fjc: still wired it wrong! you got CVBS signal going to Luminance input of S-VHS connector, - this is what you see as those mosaic patterns

Surely not. Picture is perfect on living room Samsung TV. Composite video is wired to (unused) composite video RCA.

[candle]

yes, you did

 

seriously!

[flashjazzcat]

OK, going clockwise in order around the 5-pin din (as looking at the back of the Atari socket), pins are:

 

1 - Composite luminance

4 - Composite video

2 - Ground

5 - Composite chroma

3 - Audio

 

This is from the pin diagram in Appendix 15 of "Mapping the Atari". I can't see any wiring problem, unless the pinouts are wrong. The two ground leads from the svideo cable, plus the "bare" ground under the shielding are wired to pin 2 "Ground" on the DIN, as is ground from the audio and composite video RCA jacks. Puzzled beyond belief here. Need to make a decision on whether this TV's a keeper or not by tomorrow...

[candle]

some atari computers have cvbs and luminance shorted - this might be a problem...

 

you can test it wiring pin 4 to composite in, and then pin 1 to composite in - if both will give you color picture, then you have a problem...

[flashjazzcat]

As already stated, the cable as wired gives a great picture on a different set. s-video and composite is known working on this Atari.

 

Well, it works OK on the LG and on the other Samsung. If the cable works on two other TVs then surely it's wired correctly. I have to rationally conclude that it's the set that's at fault so it's going back to the shop.

Edited May 28, 2009 by flashjazzcat

[flashjazzcat]

Right: latest development is I took the SM2032MW back to the shop and exchanged it for the LG M227WD. Well - I won't actually get hold of it till Monday since they sold the last one in stock at Richers 30 seconds before I walked in. I did, however, take the 8-bit into the shop and tested it on the LG's near identical 19" counterpart. Perfect s-video output (with my home-made cable, although it needs a diode to deal with slight vertical banding), and the 1920x1080 desktop will be a bonus. Can't wait to get it on Monday. Should be the perfect all-in-one solution I've been looking for.