A Discussion of this forum's policies

[Pete5125]

Yes sadly, their has to be someone in charge because these threads get out of control....don't know why but it has always been that way here, their are other spots on the web you can discuss piracy, just not here and it has to stay this way because people on this board will go crazy, So I vote every thing stays as is, if we are voting, besides nobody trying to change this boards rules...is helping pay to run this site including me so I figure none of our votes should count...make your own Jag site I'm sure pleanty will visit.

[Christos]

Yes sadly, their has to be someone in charge because these threads get out of control....don't know why but it has always been that way here, their are other spots on the web you can discuss piracy, just not here and it has to stay this way because people on this board will go crazy, So I vote every thing stays as is, if we are voting, besides nobody trying to change this boards rules...is helping pay to run this site including me so I figure none of our votes should count...make your own Jag site I'm sure pleanty will visit.

 

Still, it's quite amazing how every other atari (and I imagine most of the other retro) community has solved those problems and the jaguar one hasn't. Obviously a paradigm shift is urgently needed.

[Mr Morden]

Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve

 

Nobody at all is saying Indie developers can't protect their work. Again, someone has got their flaming torch and pitchfork out and started chasing common sense away before they even thought about things. We are talking about opening up the GENERAL DISCUSSION. If an Indie says "Hey, I made this to sell, please don't host an image" then that should be respected.

 

Wow, you seem to have a lot of disinformation coming at you since your arrival here and granted, that can be chalked up to the fact that you're new... but once again, before you go spouting off about something you know nothing about, get the facts. Every year this seller (aka developer) does a charity bike ride. He not only asks for donations on the diabetes Tour De Cure site, but he also sells one copy of BS on EBay. I don't know where you got your information about him keeping the money, but it makes no sense when he:

1. Is adamant about raising money for fighting diabetes and

2. Doesn't even need the money.

 

Once again, we've been brought off-topic with disinformation.

 

No, it hasn't. I specifically pointed out that the sales for this game go to charity. But you cannot honestly say that the only units of this rom for sale on ebay are from the developer. Other people sell them. For STUPIDLY HIGH PRICES, and guess what? THEY KEEP THE CASH THEMSELVES. The fact that the original dev is doing it for charity is great, but, honestly, don't you think selling more for less would get that charity more cash in the long run? Surely selling 200 units at $80 is better than selling one at $1000? That's his call, sure enough. But why should everyone else be forced to avoid certain subjects just because a handful of individuals think it should be so?

 

Battlespehere is, no doubt, the greatest game ever produced for the Jaguar. But the price of Spanish Inquisition Dark Age paranoia it has forced on the community for years since it's release, in my opinion, was not worth the price of admission.

 

Despite what you may think, we are in contact with several more potential devs who have all completed and delivered working productions many times over. They are all respected in their home scenes, and they are all reading this. The universal response from them all regarding what's going on here is "why should we even bother going there." - and that is a shame, because it's turning away great potential.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Mr Morden

[Mr Morden]

And another thing I'd like to add.

 

This thread is NOT ABOUT HOSTING ROM IMAGES. Al has already said this won't happen, as they are magnitues larger than 2600/7800/a8 roms.

 

You won't see images of Tempest 2000, Cybermorph, or *gasp* Battlesphere here. We're not even asking for that to happen.

 

We're asking for the restrictions on discussion to be removed. This is not about obtaining ROMs. It's about being able to talk more freely and openly about ANY subject related to the Jaguar. Isn't that a GoodThing?

Edited June 28, 2009 by Mr Morden

[kgenthe]

And another thing I'd like to add.

 

This thread is NOT ABOUT HOSTING ROM IMAGES. Al has already said this won't happen, as they are magnitues larger than 2600/7800/a8 roms.

 

You won't see images of Tempest 2000, Cybermorph, or *gasp* Battlesphere here. We're not even asking for that to happen.

 

We're asking for the restrictions on discussion to be removed. This is not about obtaining ROMs. It's about being able to talk more freely and openly about ANY subject related to the Jaguar. Isn't that a GoodThing?

This may have been directed at me. I am not trying to get this place to host roms. I am pointing out the fact the very site that promotes piracy (sorta) of other platforms is the same site that censors a lot of Jaguar discussions (piracy related or not). Which alludes to what doctorclu stated earlier about the hypocrisy of said rules.

[+remowilliams]

This may have been directed at me. I am not trying to get this place to host roms.

I don't think it's directed at you at all. I think it's directed at the couple of people who keep trying to drag this discussion off into 'U R all scummy ROMz pirate thieves!!' weeds.

[doctorclu]

Ok then. I see we agreed on the same things again today more or less. Saw that we are not trying to host roms here on Atariage... would be nice and even more equal, but not neccessary.

 

Just looking for less restrictions on this forum.

 

We agree that the stances on things from copying carts to simply backing up CD's are treated in polar opposite ways in comparison to the rest of the Atari hardware forums (2600, 5200, 7800, etc) and the Jaguar.

 

So what next? We've come to agree on this, that we need a change. So are we waiting on Al to make a decision? Is he the moderator of this forum?

 

Speaking of moderators, looking at the other Atari hardware forums, the best way to have what they have is a moderator that steps in when things start to become flame wars. Everything else seems to be fine.

 

There was a mention that other boards worked through problems but not the Jaguar. As I learned at summer camp as a counselor, sometimes you have to give people the chance to resolve problems and not break up every petty fight. Manage too strictly and people will not find the solutions on their own. Or never find true resolution.

 

Like the other Atari hardware forums, what we need are to be shown maybe how to do things (a FAQ), a chance to discuss openly where the only rule is be cool the other person talking. And a moderator who only steps in when things go from discussion to flame war.

 

Beyond that, we've talked for five pages, a lot have voiced they want a change, so Al, how can we go from this point?

[Mr Morden]

I don't think it's directed at you at all. I think it's directed at the couple of people who keep trying to drag this discussion off into 'U R all scummy ROMz pirate thieves!!' weeds.

 

This is not at all about piracy. It's about Jaguar Forum Censorship. Which doesn't exist in any other forum here. Why is that? Please tell me why this forum should not be opened up like all the others, or, god forbid, tell us why all the other forums should be locked down to bring them into line with here.

 

There's nothing special about the Jaguar community that should place it in a special catagory from everything else. It's a lump of plastic with silicon in it.

[viMaster]

Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve

 

It's off topic, but I feel like a comment. Your stance implies that the majority of Jaguar fans who buy recent Jaguar games are only buying them because they have no option... that they would simply stop doing that & that they are mostly closet pirates & would rather copy games than buy them if it wasn't for people such as our good self protecting the devs. That's more than paranoid, eh? It's been said many times before, look to the examples set on other systems. If devs don't want their stuff copied, put up a disclaimer, make it known, the vast majority of people will respect that because they respect the effort of the devs. The few that won't were likely not going to be customers & more likely to be rom collectors who just aren't worth the effort of considering.

Where's a forehead-smacking smiley when you need one.

 

kZa, it's like we're arguing the same point and yet some people don't get it... and you don't realize we're arguing the same point.

Taken from what I was originally quoting & replying to:

Exactly. It's about the pitchforks that come out everytime someone says they can make an emulator, or a flash device, or anything that might, possibly, even indirectly allow one game - and lets be VERY clear about this, there is, as far as I can see, only one developer on the entire planet who is trying to enforce this stupidity - to be loaded and played.

And then my comment:

Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve

Do you see what I'm getting at? He mentioned only one developer on the entire planet is trying to enforce it... and he said it was stupidity. The fact is, if the Battlesphere team don't want their game to be loaded on flash devices, they have the right. They have been vocal on that point, which is why it can't be loaded onto a Skunkboard.

Wait, wasn't that your point? That people should honor that anyway?

[Gorf]

I don't want to get into an all out brawl with Gorf. I think Cyrano Jones covered that pretty well a few weeks back, I've only got one JagPad, and I don't want to have to lube it up. But this seems like a really stupid argument.

 

If you are not looking to get into an all out brawl wtih me , then why bring up this historical horse-assery? Talk about

really stupid.

 

It is very clear that every one of you ROM dudes missed the clearly made point. If you want games from us they

will cost you. We make carts. We do not make ROM images for upload. We appreciate the original media that

the console was intended to use. As true fans of the system, we want to release professional quality games in

cart/ CD form because many people want and appreciate that. Only you guys complain about this...wonder why?

 

We are simply concerned with getting back the money we put out for the cost of the materials. I think a 1st grader

would be able to grasp this simple concept, no?

 

 

The only form of uploadable games will be skunk based and serialized. Dont like it? Can't help you...of course there is

always the other two execptions, demo's of Gorf classic and Surounded! that you are welcome to download and play

by all means. ...they both run on skunk BTW.

 

 

NOBODY. I repeat. NOBODY is going to get rich from Jaguar development. If you want to be repayed for your work, why would you even look at the Jaguar to begin with? Saying the toolset sucks, so it's hard work, so I should be repaid... is lunacy.

 

If you really believe this idiocy, your dumber than that joystick joke. We are making Jag games. If you want them, get ready to pay

for them. If you don't, you're young, you'll get over it. We promise however that the quality will be worthy of your money.

 

They cost us time, and effort and quite frankly a lot of retarded idiocy like from all of you who can't wait to download any ROM

you can get your hands on. If you dont like it find another console to be a fan of or learn to code yourself and write your own

games and then come back and tell me how much you think it's "no problem".

 

More lunacy is assuming you know what you are saying about the jag tools when clearly you dont.

 

A stupid argument is believing someone is not worthy of their labor. That's as looney you can get. You do not come across as a

gracious type yourself (because you sound like you are owed a free ride here) so I highly doubt you'd put up with this for nothing

either.

 

Now, Reboot are producing games for fun - like we've always done on all the platforms we have worked on in the past. If some people expect payment for their work, that IS THEIR RIGHT. But it SHOULD NOT give them the right to make demands on how other people create development equipment.

 

This is yet another fine example of you not having even the foggiest clue about what you are saying. I never once demanded any one

how they should make anything. I simply said I would not support it if it were allowed to pirate commercial ROMS which BTW is also MY

RIGHT. Sorry my friend but this is fantasy on your part. A fantasy brought about by an inability to appreciate the hard work being put

into our efforts. Also a fantasy based on an attitude that you are owed our efforts at no cost somehow too. Our games are produced for

fun too. For fun for you guys when you buy them and play them and fun for us making them. Also fun for us getting back money to pay

for the cost of the carts the packaging, the shipping materials and all the whiney little bullshit that goes along with it.

 

 

You see... I've got a working .ROM image of the test of Project One. I've encrypted it. I've tried to upload it to the Skunkboard for testing, so that maybe, just maybe we could make a real, honest to god, hold in your hands, cartridge. Guess what? I can't.

 

Life's a bitch. but just to show you I'm not the devil incarnate, a simpler unencrypted version might actually run on the skunk.....or learn something...

read below....***

 

And the reason for this, I presume, is because of the demands from the "few" that the Skunk should not be able to upload to $800000-$802000 in order to prevent piracy.

 

And an excellent reason to do so from a developers point of view. I suppose it's all perspective now is'nt it?

 

***

A test ROM can be run on a skunk if they simply recompile for it. Seems to me if they trust you with that image,

they can trust you with another that will run on the skunk.(...or maybe it might be becasue they dont fully trust

you? If so, I wonder why? )

 

Great work guys, get a development tool crippled so that a test rom for a new product can't be created on it.

 

Yes it was an excellent job on KSkunk and Tursi's part....however...

 

 

BZZZZT!!! Not it's purpose. It's purpose it to write code with, not run ROMS. If the developers of the game want

you to run it on a skunk, there is nothing stopping them. Try again, space cadet.

 

It's exactly this kind of attitude that holds things back, and I think this example is specifically what DrClu is talking about.

 

Right, and the only 'things' it holds back is dudes like you using ROM's you have no right to. Boohoo....get over it.

 

Here are the facts, like it or not. You have no respect for those that do supply the hard work and development for games

for your DEAD system, that everyone else did forget.

 

Now , if CyranoJ wants to code the simple games on the Jaguar, God bless him. I understand his point that some games

are not a hard project. We however are trying to accomplish fast and detailed games to push the power of the machine

and quite frankly for our own pleasure and curiosity. The hopeful result is a game worthy of cart space and your support.

If you want to operate other wise, I can't stop you, but don't tell me I have no right to operate as I see fit.

 

Thank you come again.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Gorf

[viMaster]

Wrong, there are a few different people. You're right... it's so stupid that these indie developers want to protect their work from being copied and passed around... man... the nerve

 

Nobody at all is saying Indie developers can't protect their work. Again, someone has got their flaming torch and pitchfork out and started chasing common sense away before they even thought about things. We are talking about opening up the GENERAL DISCUSSION. If an Indie says "Hey, I made this to sell, please don't host an image" then that should be respected.

But wait... you were referring to Battlesphere and its devs, were you not, when you made this statement, which is the one I was quoting when I made the above statement?

Exactly. It's about the pitchforks that come out everytime someone says they can make an emulator, or a flash device, or anything that might, possibly, even indirectly allow one game - and lets be VERY clear about this, there is, as far as I can see, only one developer on the entire planet who is trying to enforce this stupidity - to be loaded and played.

In the very next sentence, you mentioned Battlesphere, so I'm led to believe that is the one you are talking about?

You weren't opening up general discussion in that quote, you were talking specifically about one game and its one developer. There's only been one famous one that must be the one you're talking about -- 4Play & Battlesphere.

So if, in fact, you are saying that an indie developer wishes to not have their game copied around, that it should be respected.

Then why can't you respect the wishes of 4Play? They have said time and time again that Battlesphere is not to be copied.

What's the difference?

Wow, you seem to have a lot of disinformation coming at you since your arrival here and granted, that can be chalked up to the fact that you're new... but once again, before you go spouting off about something you know nothing about, get the facts. Every year this seller (aka developer) does a charity bike ride. He not only asks for donations on the diabetes Tour De Cure site, but he also sells one copy of BS on EBay. I don't know where you got your information about him keeping the money, but it makes no sense when he:

1. Is adamant about raising money for fighting diabetes and

2. Doesn't even need the money.

 

Once again, we've been brought off-topic with disinformation.

 

No, it hasn't. I specifically pointed out that the sales for this game go to charity. But you cannot honestly say that the only units of this rom for sale on ebay are from the developer. Other people sell them. For STUPIDLY HIGH PRICES, and guess what? THEY KEEP THE CASH THEMSELVES. The fact that the original dev is doing it for charity is great, but, honestly, don't you think selling more for less would get that charity more cash in the long run? Surely selling 200 units at $80 is better than selling one at $1000? That's his call, sure enough. But why should everyone else be forced to avoid certain subjects just because a handful of individuals think it should be so?

Here, I obviously misunderstood you and I apologize for that.

What I thought you were referring to was the one copy a year that goes on sale DIRECT from the developer, whose proceeds go directly to the Tour de Cure.

I was mistaken regarding what you were talking about.

 

I agree that it's ridiculous that Battlesphere costs that much from other people who have purchased it. It generally goes for between $300-600 depending on which version.

It sucks, but it's supply & demand.

 

I don't know how many copies 4Play still has, but they're only selling one a year and again, for charity, which is an important and unselfish thing to do in this world.

4Play certainly can't be held responsible for what everyone does with Battlesphere after they've purchased it. Obviously, people have been raking in the dough now for years with that game, which is unfortunate, but again, is just supply & demand. There are more expensive games out there -- look at a couple for the 2600, lol.

Battlespehere is, no doubt, the greatest game ever produced for the Jaguar. But the price of Spanish Inquisition Dark Age paranoia it has forced on the community for years since it's release, in my opinion, was not worth the price of admission.

 

Despite what you may think, we are in contact with several more potential devs who have all completed and delivered working productions many times over. They are all respected in their home scenes, and they are all reading this. The universal response from them all regarding what's going on here is "why should we even bother going there." - and that is a shame, because it's turning away great potential.

You might be being sarcastic with the whole Battlesphere being the greatest game on the Jaguar, I'm not sure. Personally, it might not be. It's certainly one of the most impressive and definitely the most impressive of the homebrews. I like a couple games better, but that's just my opinion.

 

As far as other devs, it's unfortunate if they don't want to bother with the Jaguar. I think they would be surprised at how much they'd be appreciated if they made games for it. I've always said (and always will) that new talent is always welcome and that includes you, Mr Morden and Reboot. Opinions may differ regarding everything just being free for everyone, but that's certainly not a reason to give up. Jaguar fans love stuff they can buy in a nice physical package and they also love the free stuff they can just download and load with BJL or the skunk. Why can't there be room for both?

 

That being said, if these other developers really don't want to bother with it, I'm not going to, as some might say, "lick their fingers."

[Gorf]

That being said, if these other developers really don't want to bother with it, I'm not going to, as some might say, "lick their fingers."

 

It's not at all abot any of this Vi. It has everything to do with those thinking becasue a sysetm is dead, that no one has a right to protect their work on it

or charge money to cover cost. They feel they have a right to what is not really theirs to begin with. That is all it is and all it will ever be.

[doctorclu]

Right, and the only 'things' it holds back is dudes like you using ROM's you have no right to. Boohoo....get over it.

 

Here are the facts, like it or not. You have no respect for those that do supply the hard work and development for games for your DEAD system, that everyone else did forget. ...

 

If you want to operate other wise, I can't stop you, but don't tell me I have no right to operate as I see fit.

 

A fairly heated message, and I would like to point out the people asking for change have been fairly even tempered and I don't believe the attitude in Gorf's message represents the group that are working for the change of policy in this thread.

 

That said, Gorf, you are a developer, and I believe the idea is that since you did not release your project to the public, and are still with us and working on this material, that your material would not be up for discussion, talks of duplication, etc.

 

I know the common sensial, non-censored approach would be new to the Jaguar forum here on Atariage, but if we apply what we've seen on the other forums, we would give that respect to your work.

 

Again, with this first step we are working on, this is not about featuring your roms, or even the older roms, but the ability to talk openly and communicate without censorship about the Jaguar.

 

Thank you for your hard work on the Jaguar, having made clear what I said above, your work is not what this thread is about.

Edited June 28, 2009 by doctorclu

[viMaster]

Right, and the only 'things' it holds back is dudes like you using ROM's you have no right to. Boohoo....get over it.

 

Here are the facts, like it or not. You have no respect for those that do supply the hard work and development for games for your DEAD system, that everyone else did forget. ...

 

If you want to operate other wise, I can't stop you, but don't tell me I have no right to operate as I see fit.

 

A fairly heated message, and I would like to point out the people asking for chance have been fairly even tempered and I don't believe the attitude in Gorf's message represents the group that are working for the change of policy in this thread.

 

That said, Gorf, you are a developer, and I believe the idea is that since you did not release your project to the public, and are still with us and working on this material, that your material would not be up for opening discussion, talks of duplication, etc.

 

I know the common sensial, non-censored approach would be new to the Jaguar forum here on Atariage, but if we apply what we've seen on the other forums, we would give that respect to your work.

 

Again, with this first step we are working on, this is not about featuring your roms, or even the older roms, but the ability to talk openly and communicate without censorship about the Jaguar.

 

Thank you for your hard work on the Jaguar, having made clear what I said above, your work is not what this thread is about.

Yes, on topic again, (yikes) the censorship is kinda ridiculous, in my opinion.

I don't know if Al will change it, but so far it appears that he won't.

[Chickybaby]

Watch it or you'll end up with this thread being locked, which would be ironic.

[Gorf]

Thank you for your hard work on the Jaguar, having made clear what I said above, your work is not what this thread is about.

 

I never said people cant talk about it. Talk about what ever you want, but dont be suprised at my reaction if it's about

copying games you should not be copying or any subject I find my self on the opposite side of. Im totally into the first

amendment. Sticks and stones and all.

 

Oh, and the heat is coming from the joystick up my ass bullshit. Hardly was necesary.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Gorf

[doctorclu]

Yes, on topic again, (yikes) the censorship is kinda ridiculous, in my opinion.

I don't know if Al will change it, but so far it appears that he won't.

 

Watch it or you'll end up with this thread being locked, which would be ironic.

 

Well Chickybaby, you seem to be in the know as one of the moderators here. So who do we need to talk to to make change here? Al? You? Fill us in, how can we work together on this?

[Albert]

Well Chickybaby, you seem to be in the know as one of the moderators here. So who do we need to talk to to make change here? Al? You? Fill us in, how can we work together on this?

I am obviously reading this thread, if a change was to be made it would be by me, and you are starting to get on my nerves now. I am not sure I will do anything at this point, and right now I have bigger fish to fry given I have to setup a new server and move AtariAge over to it.

 

And Gorf, I don't see anyone here advocating the copying of homebrew games, most especially in the case where developers are selling their games and/or have expressed that they do not want them copied. I think your statement is out of line in that regard.

 

..Al

[Chickybaby]

I'm only an enforcer.

If you are arguing about a discussion on wanting to change forum policies and there are some pretty snippy if not nasty comments being passed around it's not a good sign imo.

 

Oops, Albert beat me to it... but not annoying him should be definitely a priority.

[+remowilliams]

If you are arguing about a discussion on wanting to change forum policies and there are some pretty snippy if not nasty comments being passed around it's not a good sign imo.

Generally speaking, no it isn't. However this is the Jag forum where a small but violently vocal minority get their way by shouting and flaming down threads they don't happen to like, until they wind up locked. That's whats happened for several years now, and you can pretty easily see that the majority of folks participating here would like to have a civil discussion.

[doctorclu]

I am obviously reading this thread, if a change was to be made it would be by me, and you are starting to get on my nerves now. I am not sure I will do anything at this point, and right now I have bigger fish to fry given I have to setup a new server and move AtariAge over to it.

 

Al, the only thing "getting on my nerves" about you is your lack of input on this ...until I got on your nerves.

 

Listen, I know Atariage has been up and down lately. Thank you for the input, that's all we've been asking for... who do we talk to, who will decide, etc. I think we've established that we'd like a change and hit some good points. So how long do you think you'll need to tackle the current issues you mentioned above, and at what time can we discuss this with you? How long do think you need?

[+Sauron]

Doc, I'm sure Albert will make it well clear when he's ready to handle this topic. It's not like he's ever been oblivious to it, believe me. Until then, just be patient and focus on having fun here instead of trying to start a "revolution". The Jag community may be behind the times in many ways, but eventually it'll be forced to evolve.

[doctorclu]

If you are arguing about a discussion on wanting to change forum policies and there are some pretty snippy if not nasty comments being passed around it's not a good sign imo.

Generally speaking, no it isn't. However this is the Jag forum where a small but violently vocal minority get their way by shouting and flaming down threads they don't happen to like, until they wind up locked. That's whats happened for several years now, and you can pretty easily see that the majority of folks participating here would like to have a civil discussion.

 

Well said RemoWilliams. Civil discussion for change is the goal here.

[+remowilliams]

Thank you for the input, that's all we've been asking for... who do we talk to, who will decide, etc.

Doc, give it a bit of time. As you can see from this single thread alone, the amount of babysitting this forum requires due to the endless carrying on of relatively few, is enormous. The fact that anybody wants to deal with it all, is quite frankly amazing...

[+Sauron]

Doc, give it a bit of time. As you can see from this single thread alone, the amount of babysitting this forum requires due to the endless carrying on of relatively few, is enormous. The fact that anybody wants to deal with it all, is quite frankly amazing...

 

My thoughts exactly. Of course, I'm one of the ones who volunteered to actually deal with it...