Lumpbucket Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 I had a quick flick through the X-Box thread, but I'm not going to give reasons why I didn't buy an X-Box (heck, I didn't buy a Playstation, Gamecube, SNES, Megadrive, Saturn, Dreamcast, or N64 either...), but I can give more reason to hate Microsoft than "They suck". Before I get the nitty gritty, Microsoft have done SOME good. The BASICs they supplied to the manufacturors of 8-bit computers in the early 80s were usually very good, for example. Anyway... 1: Dodgy business practices Right from the start Microsoft tried nasty tactics to get their way. One of the reasons MS-DOS became so powerful is that Microsoft created a license that basically said "If you sell a PC with MS-DOS, you can't sell a PC with anything else". A resulting lawsuit succesfully stopped this practice, but after the damage was done. Competing DOS compatible operating systems; often with superior features, died because they couldn't get the distribution. Want to sell a dual boot PC with Windows on it? Fine, as long as the other OS is also a Microsoft OS, otherwise Microsoft will eat you for breafast. Be, Inc. found themselves at the sharp end of this deal... Some other interesting licensing issues: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archi...hive/26517.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25956.html Interestingly, when Microsoft created Excel, they were rumoured to put updates into MS-DOS that caused the current industry standard, Lotus 1-2-3, to fail. 2: Microsoft and "standards" Microsoft trumpets its dominance in the market as being good for consumers! "If everyone uses microsoft, everyone has access to the same files and standards!", which is nice, as long you don't invent some new technology which Microsoft want to license and ruin. Take Java, for example. Sun created a system where one binary can run on many operating systems through a translation layer called a "JVM"! Thats nice, thought Microsoft, and created a nice Microsoft Java standard that runs on... err.... Microsoft JVMs only. They happily plastered "Sun JAVA compatible" all over it.. Of course, Sun sued. http://java.sun.com/lawsuit/ 3: Security Microsoft Windows is programmed by a massive team of programmers, and tested by an even bigger team, yet security holes of frightening severity make it into all their major products. If this wasn't bad enough, they then drag their feet about fixing them! Its often not until theres an exploit out there that they even admit them! There are lots more, but these are the some of the most important ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Righty, Well here's the other side (perhaps?) Dodgy business? Many similar companies do similar things. Now it would be nice to back this up with examples, but I have a hopeless memory, which gets in the way...gah. I know far less than I should about apple, but what has their situation been on only letting their own stuff run on their machines? Better than Microsoft's? As for the various rumours, often these come from people feeling hard done by, and grow. Microsoft standards...so they may not be perfect, in fact they may be far from perfect, but look at when everyone had their own slandered. You had Amiga stuff, Acorn stuff, Apple stuff, Windows stuff, Os2 stuff etc etc. Now I have nothing against any of these (hell, I love amigas), but it did make things harder. Security holes. So there are more security holes reported in Windows than other OSs. I don't know, but couldn't this be because of the huge number of computers running Windows? If your going to try and get into one it might as well be Windows? Now I know Microsoft is a pretty unpopular company, and although I probably come across as a fanboy, this is not the case. I admit I should use other OSs (that AmigaOS 4 looks like it could be neat), I have at least tried most of them. Windows may not be perfect but it does everything I want to do...*thinks now would be a good time to shut up* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacGurl Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Actually, Apple doesn't just have their own stuff running on Macs. In fact, Apple promotes Microsoft Office products more than Appleworks or any similar application that Apple makes. Apple does have some software that's only for the Mac, but they've also tried to make it as easy as possible to share information from your Mac to your PC. I don't see M$ doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 There was an issue recently where Dell wanted to ship computers with no operating system installed. They couldn't do it, however, because of MS's restrictive licensing. They DID find a loophole, though... They started shipping some computers with an OS -- but NOT installed. Rather they started shipping the computers with a floppy containing FreeDOS, an MSDos clone. It's kinda a nice OS too, and so far in my testing, runs just about all MS dos programs I can throw at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris++ Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 I agree with everything you stated, Lumpbucket; and anyone who's been a good little brainwashed consumer might try to defend MS, but some of us who've been using many different kinds of computers for over 20 years (loooong before they were "cool"), and who've used superior OSs that DIDN'T need the shady business practices to get popular by word of mouth (Amiga OSs, for instance), see right through MS's schemes (and badly designed Win. registry access, among other inefficiencies!). (Adding Bucket's items to my existing personal list of 1,247 reasons to hate Microsoft...) CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Alternate OS's all the way. I use MS because I have to at work. I'm looking into freedos with OpenGEM on it, and I'm highly interested in AtheOS. I have Linux, but having trouble getting the hang of it. I even have an alternate OS page I'm developing on my website. Just has links right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raijin Z Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 I'm not so pissed about the security holes, it's the goddamn instability that bothers me. Who cares about possibly being attacked from the outside if Windows kills your hard drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fretwobbler Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Microsoft should be treated like polotics and religion and not discussed on message boards. Some stones are best left un-turned. But for the record.. BAD Their Operating Systems are poo, especially the network ones. Some of their products are a bit expensive. PRO'S Thier Licencing scheme for SME business is brilliant. They provide a very good living for 200,000 families around the world. Their route to market is the most streamlined in the software industry and puts the likes of Lotus(IBM) to shame. They contribute more money to FAST than any other company in the world. They make internet business more viable by putting Numb-Schmuck technology in the hands of the masses instead of the Geeky-Tecky IT-aware elite. Well thats enough, you should get which side of the fence I sit on. But hey.... the press and the competition love to shoot down the winners dont they! Why do people direct corporate vengeance towards a software company then sit back and watch "Acme Nuclear Bombs" or "Dodgy Accountants Inc" carry on regardless. There is a lot worse out there, they just dont get the coverage, probably because its not fashionable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 another reason to hate them... no more lik-sang.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fretwobbler Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 anyone who's been a good little brainwashed consumer might try to defend MS, but some of us who've been using many different kinds of computers for over 20 years Just to defend myself here Chris, I am not a 'Little Brainwashed Consumer' as you put it, on the contrary, in fact I have over 8 years experience of dealing with Microsoft at a business-to-business level and I tell you something for nothing, as a business(lets forget product quality for a moment) they wipe the floor with almost any other company in the world. If anyone is the 'Little Brainwashed Copnsumer' it is people like yourself who, while having experience of using their products, you know absolutely nothing about their role and efficiencies as a corporate entity. Why dont you try and make your _own_ decisions based on your _own_ experiences rathere than what the press and internet-rabble say. If you owned your own business and took a long hard look at who offered the lowest TCO for desktop based OS and office software you would realise that MS offer the best solution. Oh......and you live in a country that gave us Enron, but you still slate Microsoft. Wake up and realise who is doing the most for _your_ countries economy. ......and if you hate them so much then dont use their products, nobody's forced too. I dont like Ford cars but I dont publicaly state my hatred of them, but then that isnt fashionable is it. If you(or anyone else) can give me 1 good reason how Microsoft has detrimentaly affected _their_ lives personally I will be very surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 another reason to hate them... no more lik-sang.com What happened with Lik Sang? I know I haven't been able to access their site for well over a week now... hmmmmm Clint Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 If you(or anyone else) can give me 1 good reason how Microsoft has detrimentaly affected _their_ lives personally I will be very surprised. Because of security holes in Outlook, viruses like Klez are running rampant. I own a Mac, but I still get lots of virus email. Sure, I can't be infected, but I still have to delete the virus emails, and whose attachements bite into (a) my hard drive space (until I delete them, which eats into my time) and (b) the time it takes for me to download them (I'm not on broadband). Is that going to kill me? No. Does it inconvenience me and piss me off? Yes. Therefore, yes, MS has detrimentally affected my life personally. Oh yeah, and Visual Source Safe, normally a fairly stable product, HAS occasionally lost checked in source code, meaning I've had to recreate hours of work. This is on two separate occasions, so let's estimate about six hours of productivity lost. Six hours my employer therefore lost, and were boring to me in the recreation. Perhaps that's a better example of "detrimental" than the first, though I consider it a lesser bug (for occurences, and probably severity too) than the prior example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 clint: ms shut them down for selling xbox mod chips. As for a direct bad influence to my life, the lik-sang issue. I was going to buy a programmers flash link for the neogeo pocket color, and the language on it is derivitive of c, and i was planning to learn to make some simple games on it, becuase its a great little system, now i cant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liveinabin Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 lan-kwei.com are another Hong-Kong based importer who do more-or-less the same thing. You could try them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fretwobbler Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 @Russ -The only thing I know about V Sourcesafe is its part number but I appreciate losing hours of work will be bad and very frustrating. I have fallen foul of this myself with MS products in the past, but I have also fallen foul of losing work from other products, Domino, SAP, even the unbreakable Netware 3 has cost me time and money in the past. Regarding Outlook though, you arent forced to use it. Thats the crux of my point. Nescape X would solve that problem, all these people moan about them endlessly which in itself gets very tiring no matter which side you favour yet the vast majority probably continue to use their products. You have experience from a programming perspective and have encountered problems, I can respect your view for that, what I cant respect is when people start threads with a post that looks like it could have been cut and pasted from any anti-MS site that have no bearing on the forum(or even whole site) they are posted in (what is MS security holes got to do with Modern Gaming????). Lets pretend Outlook was a car, if you bought an outlook-car from MS and realised you couldnt lock the door, you wouldnt carry on buying cars from them and just moan about it, youd buy a differant car. Thats what people (like you already have done in using a mac) should do. Vote with your feet, dont moan about it. @Liquid Sky, while i agree thats a bit of a bummer, if I owned a business and someone was selling illegal and un-licenced bolt-on products for my kit I'd shut them down as well, would you let them continue? On a lighter note, check out this new version of windows....Windows RG... http://www.lbstone.com/void/UDCMLAGEBF/winrg.swf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 is lan-kwei trustable and valid tho? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 as for the would i shut someone down? of course. but the issue is that lik sang sold alot of stuff for development as well, grey market stuff, that could be seen either way, yet SHOULD be used for good. Take a GBA flasher.. if someone cant afford a gba game they load it into the system and hurt nintendo. But if someone has a linker and is working on homebrew software and needs to check the program on a real unit, they would have to buy a more costly product to make carts.. im not even sure how someone that wasent directly in the industry would get one. Like me, I was wanting to make painfully simple games, just for me, because i wouldnt have the means to produce carts, the NGPC is a niche system.. but anyway im done griping now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Night Phantom Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 Regarding Outlook though, you arent forced to use it. Thats the crux of my point. Nescape X would solve that problem, all these people moan about them endlessly which in itself gets very tiring no matter which side you favour yet the vast majority probably continue to use their products. ... Lets pretend Outlook was a car, if you bought an outlook-car from MS and realised you couldnt lock the door, you wouldnt carry on buying cars from them and just moan about it, youd buy a differant car. Thats what people (like you already have done in using a mac) should do. Vote with your feet, dont moan about it. You’re right: Russ isn’t forced to use Outlook—at least, on his personal time. In fact, I bet he doesn’t. The virus-spawned e-mail messages he is inundated with are coming from other computers, many of which I am sure do have Outlook and its lousy, virus-welcoming architecture. I experience the same problem he does, and it’s the programs other people are running that contribute to the problem, not the ones I am running. Accordingly, a better car analogy would be Microsoft producing an Outlook car that occasionally spewed shrapnel at innocent bystanders, even if they wouldn’t buy a Microsoft car if it were the last automobile on Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 clint: ms shut them down for selling xbox mod chips. As for a direct bad influence to my life, the lik-sang issue. I was going to buy a programmers flash link for the neogeo pocket color, and the language on it is derivitive of c, and i was planning to learn to make some simple games on it, becuase its a great little system, now i cant What a pitty.... they had a nice operation up and going. I never purchased from them but they had a lot of nice stuff that I had been wanting to get (import gamewise) Figured MS would have given a warning saying "STOP SELLLING" or we will take you to court, but I guess their too quick on action eh? Clint Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liveinabin Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 is lan-kwei trustable and valid tho? Oh yeah, totally. They're pretty much the same as Lik-Sang. Planetgamecube.com swear by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 @Russ -The only thing I know about V Sourcesafe is its part number but I appreciate losing hours of work will be bad and very frustrating. I have fallen foul of this myself with MS products in the past, but I have also fallen foul of losing work from other products, Domino, SAP, even the unbreakable Netware 3 has cost me time and money in the past. I've lost work by my own stupidity too, but I don't like that to happen MORE often than just me shooting myself in the foot... Regarding Outlook though, you arent forced to use it. Thats the crux of my point. Ah, that depends though. At work, I WAS forced to use it (now we have Lotus Notes, and that's WORSE, though for other reasons -- outside of security issues, I actually prefer Outlook). At home of course, I wouldn't touch Outlook with a ten foot pole. Not just for security, but also because it's Outlook that's unleashed the evil of top-posting upon the world in a big way. For that alone, Microsoft should be punished. (Hell, HTML-format email too... Ick). Nescape X would solve that problem, all these people moan about them endlessly which in itself gets very tiring no matter which side you favour yet the vast majority probably continue to use their products. Keep in mind also that due to monopolistic practices, MS pushes the product into the hands of people who might otherwise choose something different. Would you rather pay $X+Y for a computer and a better email program, or just $X for a computer with Outlook which you can probably get used to? For many people, it's hard to justify $Y more. Others won't know about other options because they don't have to go look for it, and they'll wonder how they got klez too. You have experience from a programming perspective and have encountered problems, I can respect your view for that, what I cant respect is when people start threads with a post that looks like it could have been cut and pasted from any anti-MS site that have no bearing on the forum(or even whole site) they are posted in (what is MS security holes got to do with Modern Gaming????). Well, the XBox IS going online... How would like it if when you went to play Halo 2 Online, all the saved games on your hard drive got erased? Or it grabbed your passwords and used it to add some charges to your online credit card account and lock you out so you can't fix it? I'm not saying that WILL or even CAN happen, but do you trust MS to do it right? I don't. They'll probably run XBox online accounts through their Passport system eventually, and Passport isn't all that secure. Lets pretend Outlook was a car, if you bought an outlook-car from MS and realised you couldnt lock the door, you wouldnt carry on buying cars from them and just moan about it, youd buy a differant car. Thats what people (like you already have done in using a mac) should do. Vote with your feet, dont moan about it. But the problem is that the bigger MS gets, the worse Macs will get (cheaper materials to compete and less software), and someday I may not have a choice (if the MS monopoly gets complete and Macs, Linux, etc, are no longer available). It's okay while I CAN buy another car, but will that always be true? And by buying a Mac I don't waive my right to complain about PCs or MS if I still have to encounter their evil on the road, you know? To use the analogy of Outlook as a car, here's my real concern: my car drives just fine -- it's good-looking, it gets where I'm going efficiently, and has all the extras I need. But these damned ugly, unsafe MS cars keep losing control, threatening to smash into me, and I'm afraid that the roads won't be safe to drive on at all someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kherman Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Ahhh, simple formula: Misrosoft is a BAD product with INDCREDIBLE marketing. See also: Bose There are many companies like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 NEW reason to hate Microsoft and THIS DIRECTLY affects my job Microsoft changes MDAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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