STE'86 Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 (edited) I was talking on the phone with PeteD last night and briefly we discussed the problems with fresh coders coming to the A8 who maybe experienced 8bit coders but not have any "hands on time" of the atari systems. now apart from the fact that some of u are WAY too fast to start getting uptight with anyone who asks any questions which u see as getting "disrespectful" of your baby A8, what we agreed on was this: that u guys need to start some kind of "repository" of info for tricks, tips and info for games programming on the A8. now this does not mean copying huge swathes of books to web pages, as these books are generally very dry and tbh "technical information" books by approved sources generally dont mention the problems and downsides to what they talk about. they simply gloss over or ignore them. what u really need are "how to's" provided by people who have actually done the stuff. a sort of "one stop games programming library". not just code necessarily but detailed theory and "backdoor" methods that atari didnt tell u about. also what u need is a "bugs and problems" list and where possible "workarounds" (i know some of u are in denial about such things but the rest of mankind know they do exist on all machines). "it is not a bug its a feature" is NOT an acceptable answer to the poor bastards trying to write software. thoughts? Steve Edited September 12, 2009 by STE'86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I suggested that the other day... there's one project a member was running - "Heavy Metal Atari" or something like that. He was compiling all the beaut tricks around like APAC, other software driven modes, VScrol tricks etc. All we'd need to do is revive that. I've not coded much on the C-64 for years and was in the dark about most of the techniques above sprites in the border and DMA Delay, but I DL'd all the C= Hacking articles... it's prettywell enough for someone who knows 6502 but not the '64 to get into some advanced stuff, so all we need is to do similar for the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I suggested that the other day... there's one project a member was running - "Heavy Metal Atari" or something like that. He was compiling all the beaut tricks around like APAC, other software driven modes, VScrol tricks etc. All we'd need to do is revive that. I've not coded much on the C-64 for years and was in the dark about most of the techniques above sprites in the border and DMA Delay, but I DL'd all the C= Hacking articles... it's prettywell enough for someone who knows 6502 but not the '64 to get into some advanced stuff, so all we need is to do similar for the Atari. I'd love to see something like this.. How about something like Codebase64 ? Something that people can contribute to and improve upon fairly easily.. At the moment with my adventure into Atari land I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel and searching for information can be really tedious at times, and I'm loathe to spark up a thread here everytime I've got a question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I downloaded the Ironman Atari (I think what Rybags is talking about) pdf. It's got some useful info in as far as some of the newer techniques go but really needs the "simple" stuff too. I know that's not the idea of that document but just some simple Init routines would be great for nooby A8 coders. I spent about 3 days a few weeks ago just making a screen, some PMG and some DLIs work how I wanted And andym00 is right, you don't really want us C64 guys pestering you every 5 mins to ask really simple stuff Maybe Atariage would host a wiki or something? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 That'd be it. Can you put the thread link? Be a good idea to revive and expand on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/123931-ironman-atari-a-compilation-of-advanced-atari-8-bit-programming-techniques/ Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 codebase64 was a good source for me when starting Berzerk port or Beyond Evil code transfer. so actually we would need codebase800... I am not sure if polish coders do not have already a wiki for code? unfortunatly always in polish... I would post stuff like this or is this too advanced already? switch_off_os_rom sei ;stop interrups mva #0 ^4e ;stop all interrupts mva #$fe ^31 mwa #nmi $fffa mwa #nmi $fffe mva #$c0 ^4e rts ; NMI routine ; ^4f==#$5f if VBLKI ; ^4f==#$9f if DLI nmi bit ^4f bpl sys_vbl ; DLI routine, e.g. ; pha jmp (dliv) ; pla ; rti ; VBL routine, e.g. sys_vbl pha txa:pha tya:pha dec 20 lda $d300 ;prepare joystick and #$0f sta stick0 jsr vbl pla:tay pla:tax pla rti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 (edited) codebase64 was a good source for me when starting Berzerk port or Beyond Evil code transfer. so actually we would need codebase800... I am not sure if polish coders do not have already a wiki for code? unfortunatly always in polish... I would post stuff like this or is this too advanced already? [snip] The wacky TQA syntax always takes me 5 times as long to decipher as normal assembler Though the above example is quite tame in comparison to some of the stuff I've seen you post Edited September 12, 2009 by andym00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 That's exactly the type of I thing I was looking for a few weeks ago when I first started. Although I'm not used to that syntax so maybe just plain 6502, not compiler specific stuff like mva etc. although it's easy enough to understand once you know what they do it's easier to read lda #<irq sta $fffe etc at least for me (old school you know hehe) Just something simple like that that has all the stuff u need to set a system running to do DLIs etc Also some quick memory info, like if you do or don't switch off the ROMs, where is available for putting stuff. Also a list of equates for registers and for register settings (I think I've seen some of these on my searches for info) so like in your example where you're testing for what caused the interrupt, or enabling interrupts you can just do LDA #DLI|VBLANK STA NMIEN that type of thing. I always find that easier than working with "magic numbers" as we always used to call them, it also saves on having to explain what those lines do with a comment. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Yep... lose the macros. No point having something for a person wanting to learn the machine if it's using examples with instructions they haven't seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urchlay Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I would post stuff like this or is this too advanced already? A bit of (hopefully) constructive criticism: For sample code, please please please don't use stuff like "mva" or "pla:tay". Some of us don't use whatever assembler you're using that supports this non-standard syntax (MADS, is it?). I think sample code should be as generic as possible, to make it useful to as many people as possible... Also, I'd say instead of "lda $d300", it makes the code easier to read if you define "PORTA = $d300" at the top, then "lda PORTA" in the code... Actually, if there's going to be a code repository with lots of people contributing to it, it might not be a bad idea to have someone write up some coding style guidelines. Since the sample code is meant mostly for other humans to read and learn from, it'd help if all the code were written in the same style... Just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore, of course. All of this is meant in a friendly way: I'm not trying to be rude or snarky, I just have some experience writing "teaching" code and I'm trying to help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 the QuickAss or now MADS "ingame" macros drive me nuts... I copied it directly from my source code library and it was written by Fox years ago (around 10 years to be honest)... Of course I have a standard ass format of that, too... it was just an example to get what you are looking for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I would post stuff like this or is this too advanced already? A bit of (hopefully) constructive criticism: For sample code, please please please don't use stuff like "mva" or "pla:tay". Some of us don't use whatever assembler you're using that supports this non-standard syntax (MADS, is it?). I think sample code should be as generic as possible, to make it useful to as many people as possible... Also, I'd say instead of "lda $d300", it makes the code easier to read if you define "PORTA = $d300" at the top, then "lda PORTA" in the code... Actually, if there's going to be a code repository with lots of people contributing to it, it might not be a bad idea to have someone write up some coding style guidelines. Since the sample code is meant mostly for other humans to read and learn from, it'd help if all the code were written in the same style... Just my 2 cents, feel free to ignore, of course. All of this is meant in a friendly way: I'm not trying to be rude or snarky, I just have some experience writing "teaching" code and I'm trying to help... yup, my intension, too... in my projects for 2 years now I do not use these macros like MVA etc anymore... only simpler macros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 MADS archive does have many usefull examples but the issue there imho... most of the examples are high level MADS examples so you definitly need practise in MADS to understand that... no offence to XXL, Tebe and others as I find good that the examples are there but even for me hard to understand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I agree that a coding style guide would be a good thing. How about using sensible label names in examples too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 MADS archive does have many usefull examples but the issue there imho... most of the examples are high level MADS examples so you definitly need practise in MADS to understand that... no offence to XXL, Tebe and others as I find good that the examples are there but even for me hard to understand... Yep, working with Tebe has been an education for me ... it sure takes time to get my head around the macros. I'm converted to MADS now, an easy transition for me using xasm previously. I would tend to agree with the consensus here that the source code resource and technical docs should be clear and concise with standard syntax, macro free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 It seems the best coding/answer threads are those around a specific game - I think Heaven has gotten alot of good advice when asking specifically about certain aspects of a problem he had in a game (Gridrunner and Beyond Evil good examples). Pete - I think your Fist topic also had some info in it. I think those would be good places to start and then harvest the info into a tech guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 (edited) I suggested that the other day... there's one project a member was running - "Heavy Metal Atari" or something like that. He was compiling all the beaut tricks around like APAC, other software driven modes, VScrol tricks etc. All we'd need to do is revive that. I've not coded much on the C-64 for years and was in the dark about most of the techniques above sprites in the border and DMA Delay, but I DL'd all the C= Hacking articles... it's prettywell enough for someone who knows 6502 but not the '64 to get into some advanced stuff, so all we need is to do similar for the Atari. I'd love to see something like this.. How about something like Codebase64 ? Something that people can contribute to and improve upon fairly easily.. At the moment with my adventure into Atari land I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel and searching for information can be really tedious at times, and I'm loathe to spark up a thread here everytime I've got a question Either something like codebase or the csdb thing (since it discusses both coding and software based h/w tricks) Edited September 12, 2009 by carmel_andrews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 It seems the best coding/answer threads are those around a specific game - I think Heaven has gotten alot of good advice when asking specifically about certain aspects of a problem he had in a game (Gridrunner and Beyond Evil good examples). Pete - I think your Fist topic also had some info in it. I think those would be good places to start and then harvest the info into a tech guide. Yeah, even the massive "argue till your legs drop off" thread has a lot of useful info in it. Shame it's such a slog to find it Tiz a good idea to start looking through specific threads because it saves having to think of what info people might want if the questions have already been asked. eg José's question about PRIOR. It's well documented already but some examples with code and pictures might help some people get a better grasp of the different modes. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwhyte Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 (edited) Once I'm done with finishing up writing the first novel in a trilogy I'm working on—look for it on the shelves 2nd quarter 2010—I possibly could give a go at mashing together a De Re 2.0 book. However, until then: Quoth the server, "Four oh four." Edited September 12, 2009 by dwhyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Once I had a plan to build a homepage explaining most advanced pokey techniques for music and interesting instruments, and how to deal with the timers and polycounters etc. ...I still have it on my HD, and in the meantime I still didn't even half complete it. At that time I really had the feeling no one was interested anyway. But, last time I'm thinking about making a PDF file (using LaTeX or others), with some nice pictures / graphs etc. and a detailed & decent explanation of real pokey features. My problem is, I've already got many plans and only time for a few. I did 3 years of testing pokey sound features and I accurately wrote out all findings in a packet of ±100 pages (with just a pen). However, this is just non-structured stuff, and worst of all, it's in dutch, so (nearly) no one here can use it. However, these notes I made may be a good source for making an official document. If time serves, I'd like to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 (edited) Well, you'll certainly find masses of the subjects have been discussed in depth over the years on AA but trawling through the forum to find them in the middle of a thread particularly the totally unrelated ones to the thread title which broke off into a discussion would take some conciderable time but for sure, the info is there to be found for somebody dedicated to go through it all. Edited September 12, 2009 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I even use AA forums to search my answeres or specific code fragments... esp. for Beyond Evil or the sample replay routines... as I had several PCs and hard discs with source code... so web would be the best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 btw... having these 2 printouts on A4 paper is always usefull... http://www.atariarchives.org/dere/programmerscard.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+therealbountybob Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 There is this 5200 / 8 bit-coding forum here on AtariAge (I only found it recently and had been posting basic coding questions here instead...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.