Atari 8bit is superior to the ST

[Lazarus]

It should be mentioned that the YUV color space is bigger than the RGB color space. An analog TV can display saturated bright colors which you won't be able to show on a VGA monitor.

Television/broadcast is one thing, but the actual signal for a color CRT display is RGB, so analog RGB signals are the msot direct way to disply on a color CRT period.

Yes but the RGB of an analog TV has far higher extreme values than you'd get from a TFT/VGA/LCD.

[PeteD]

It should be mentioned that the YUV color space is bigger than the RGB color space. An analog TV can display saturated bright colors which you won't be able to show on a VGA monitor.

Television/broadcast is one thing, but the actual signal for a color CRT display is RGB, so analog RGB signals are the msot direct way to disply on a color CRT period.

Yes but the RGB of an analog TV has far higher extreme values than you'd get from a TFT/VGA/LCD.

 

But in this situation we're talking about fixed values. If the A8 had palette registers not indexes (like the ST where you give it the RGB values, not pick them from 512) but in YUV then there'd be some room for utilising the head/toe room of the YUV formulas. As it is they're pretty much classed as errors when converting (from an RGB viewpoint) because they do produce ranges you don't really want to display normally.

 

 

Pete

Edited January 5, 2010 by PeteD

[Lazarus]

But in this situation we're talking about fixed values. If the A8 had palette registers not indexes (like the ST where you give it the RGB values, not pick them from 512) but in YUV then there'd be some room for utilising the head/toe room of the YUV formulas. As it is they're pretty much classed as errors when converting (from an RGB viewpoint) because they do produce ranges you don't really want to display normally.

From my experience VGA cannot reproduce the brighter colors of the A8 and C64. Has nothing to do with "formulas" but with $FFFFFF being a nice background color for MS Word instead of a bright white.

[PeteD]

But in this situation we're talking about fixed values. If the A8 had palette registers not indexes (like the ST where you give it the RGB values, not pick them from 512) but in YUV then there'd be some room for utilising the head/toe room of the YUV formulas. As it is they're pretty much classed as errors when converting (from an RGB viewpoint) because they do produce ranges you don't really want to display normally.

From my experience VGA cannot reproduce the brighter colors of the A8 and C64. Has nothing to do with "formulas" but with $FFFFFF being a nice background color for MS Word instead of a bright white.

 

Just so you know, I wasn't disagreeing with you, there are of course differences with the way the different displays and connectors work. I'm just pointing out that the A8/C64 whatever other machine may produce colours that don't display as well on VGA because of the way their signals are made/transmitted but it's not anything to do with the A8 vs ST palette argument, more a display issue. $FFFFFF can be BRIGHT bright white if you fiddle with your settings (less so on LCD) the same as most people's CRT TVs are "off".

 

 

Pete

Edited January 5, 2010 by PeteD

[Crazyace]

But in this situation we're talking about fixed values. If the A8 had palette registers not indexes (like the ST where you give it the RGB values, not pick them from 512) but in YUV then there'd be some room for utilising the head/toe room of the YUV formulas. As it is they're pretty much classed as errors when converting (from an RGB viewpoint) because they do produce ranges you don't really want to display normally.

From my experience VGA cannot reproduce the brighter colors of the A8 and C64. Has nothing to do with "formulas" but with $FFFFFF being a nice background color for MS Word instead of a bright white.

 

In this context, the ST doesn't use RGB via VGA , but via a TV - so that's where the comparision should be made

[vcsdream]

. Maybe it's being English, we're used to truth in the media etc.....

 

 

Pete

 

 

says the man who lives in 'The Sun' gutterpress controlled country...(and the 'etc' stands for politics perhaps, as in Tony Blair?)

 

Now that is the joke of the century.

Edited January 5, 2010 by vcsdream

[PeteD]

. Maybe it's being English, we're used to truth in the media etc.....

 

 

Pete

 

 

says the man who lives in 'The Sun' gutterpress controlled country...(and the 'etc' stands for politics perhaps, as in Tony Blair?)

 

Now that is the joke of the century.

 

I don't read "The Sun" and it certainly doesn't control the country, and don't try to read my mind where etc comes into it And where do you live? The land of perfection and light? Come back when you've got something relevant to contribute instead of trying to troll by picking out 1 thing I say.

 

I await your next magnificent reply..

 

 

Pete

Edited January 5, 2010 by PeteD

[vcsdream]

magnificent reply..

 

 

Pete

 

 

Thank you very much for the compliment

[Albert]

One thing I am doing today is installing a mod that lets me ban individuals from specific threads. An insult like the above from 'vcsdream' and you'll instantly be booted from the thread.

 

..Al

[JamesD]

This is completion of my reply to JamesD:

 

...

Sprites and games have nothing to do with desktop publishing.

You are trying to make this a IIgs vs 8 bit argument when it's about desktop publishing on the 8 bit vs ST in reference to the poll.

 

Not only that, I said the Atari 8 bit wasn't superior at everything in reference to the poll and gave examples to support that.

It was clear that anyone voting for #1 in the poll is wrong. I stopped short of using the word fanboy.

 

*YOU* claim I said "has surpassed the A8 in everything".

Nowhere in my posts does it say anything of the kind and I didn't even vote that way.

You are using a straw man argument and it doesn't even relate to the topic.

 

And yet you accuse *me* of not being able to read.

...

I don't really care how one votes, but it's possible that someone can vote A8 has surpassed St in everything and be right. I know a lot of people when I was building science projects who had all sorts of hardware installed in their A8 machines including one he was using to control a Robot. Obviously, he's not going to pick the ST which is lacking hardware support in most areas where A8 isn't. I don't think anyone made a sprite hardware upgrade for ST. And as far as your "straw-man" stuff, I interpreted your constant discussion about DTP to mean that you take that as some form of ultimate test. I don't. I never use DTP even today, but I do claim it's doable on A8.

Well, my original post was about the poll that is the topic that started this, you replied to MY post and tried to twist my words around by saying something I never said. And since I voted consistent with what I was saying then I think it applies.

I'm sure *you* don't care because you were trying to say my argument was something totally different and you don't want to admit it.

Now you are talking science projects... which has NOTHING to do with what I said. Again!

 

"but it's possible that someone can vote A8 has surpassed ST in everything and be right"

That is the heart of the matter right there. "everything" To prove it wrong all you need is one thing the ST is better at and it's wrong.

If you want to argue that I can post the definition of everything for you.

Not only that but look at the wording. "Has surpassed" as in currently. Which rules out some non-existent theoretical application you *might* be able to build.

To be fair, the poll says "is" but present tense suggests currently and again... no desktop publishing on Atari 8 bit, excellent desktop publishing on the ST.

How about this... it's possible that someone can vote A8 has surpassed ST in everything because they they don't want to admit their beloved 8 bit isn't the best at everything.

 

*IF* anyone cares... to *surpass* (the word used in the poll and your post) the ST at desktop publishing would require writing the largest application for the Atari 8 bit that has ever been written. It would require accessing more RAM in a dynamic fashion (rather than already knowing where everything is like a demo) than has ever been written for the 8 bit. It would require more storage space than any application that has ever been written for the 8 bit. It would require larger files than any application that has ever been written for the 8 bit, and the project files would exceed the maximum size any Atari 8 bit DOS can handle. You would either need a new dos or to write a new dos layer into the program that transparently splits the project into multiple Atari DOS files.

I could go on but that should tell you just adding the stuff you mentioned (128K+, etc...) doesn't even begin to cover what is involved.

 

Sprite upgrade to the ST? Huh? Now you are trying to make this about sprites AGAIN and I already pointed out that has nothing to do with my original statement which was about desktop publishing.

 

"I interpreted" < notice YOU replied to what you wanted to reply too and not what I said. You messed up and don't want to admit it.

(and accused *me* of not being able to read I might add)

 

Has anyone EVER seen Atariksi say he was wrong and apologize? Has he ever said "sorry, I misread your post"?

No, somehow he always tries to twist things around... as you'll see below.

 

To quote my post... "I also said you could probably do simple CAD stuff on the 8 bit. As a matter of fact, there were some simple house planner CAD programs for the Apple so I think I can safely say I'm sure of it."

I just said I'm sure you could do simple CAD stuff on the Atari because it's being done on the Apple II.

The II didn't have linearly addressed RAM either.

What the hell are you replying to anyway?

You seem to be replying to something completely different.

 

If you agree A8 can do some simple CAD stuff, fine. Then we agree. If you don't know what I'm replying to then you shouldn't be refuting.

You misread my post and started to argue with me. You even quoted my text which even said the 8 bit could do simple CAD stuff!

You were replying to something you THOUGHT I wrote rather that what I actually wrote and you can't even admit you screwed up, but instead try to twist it around against me AGAIN with this:

"if you don't know what I'm replying to then you shouldn't be refuting."

How about this... if you aren't going to read what people are posting, *you* shouldn't be refuting.

 

Let's not forget you accused *me* of not being able to read (clearly a personal attack) and yet you misread what I posted. Then you KEEP going back to your arguments that were to something I never said but you "interpreted".

 

Oh and... still no proof the Atari 8 bit could surpass the ST at desktop publishing.

We both no it's never going to happen so let it die.

[Heaven/TQA]

this thread starts again to become like our lovely C64 vs A8 thread...

 

so Albert, close it and we restart again with Apple 2 vs A8 thread... or ZX Spectrum vs A8 thread or Dragon 32 vs A8 thread.

[andym00]

this thread starts again to become like our lovely C64 vs A8 thread...

 

so Albert, close it and we restart again with Apple 2 vs A8 thread... or ZX Spectrum vs A8 thread or Dragon 32 vs A8 thread.

 

The Atari 'ST vs. Wall Switch' thread has my money for the next widow-maker

 

I must admit, the recent mention again of the DTP stuff has got me wondering about how fast the puny 6502 could handle stuff like that whilst not looking totally rubbish, at least the A8 would be able to use its hires mode and wide screen stuff for something useful.. Not something I ever considered before, but I was thinking a lot a while back about vector fonts and things and rendering them in realtime, and had some ideas of how you could do it reasonably well.. Not that it progressed very far

Edited January 5, 2010 by andym00

[GroovyBee]

so Albert, close it and we restart again with Apple 2 vs A8 thread... or ZX Spectrum vs A8 thread or Dragon 32 vs A8 thread.

 

Or head over to FormatWar. I'm sure TMR would be happy to see this thread going over there .

[carmel_andrews]

which is better at keeping you warm...A man made fire or a heater powered by electricity

 

Which is better at cooking the family meal....A man made fire or a cooker powered by electricity

 

which one is the ST and which one is the Atari 8bit

[ANTIQ]

I heard you can find out by pouring soup into the cartridge slot.

[frogstar_robot]

I must admit, the recent mention again of the DTP stuff has got me wondering about how fast the puny 6502 could handle stuff like that whilst not looking totally rubbish, at least the A8 would be able to use its hires mode and wide screen stuff for something useful.. Not something I ever considered before, but I was thinking a lot a while back about vector fonts and things and rendering them in realtime, and had some ideas of how you could do it reasonably well.. Not that it progressed very far

 

There is also the recent thread about using an A8 to drive a xterm Tektronix vector emulator. For that matter, the general technique would work for any 8-bit with some form of serial or ethernet output. The A8 could even gain speed at this by turning off ANTIC. Of course we still have the large issues of the amount of CPU power, disk, memory, and filesizes being small.

 

Still most of our beloved 8-bits would have power somewhat comparable to a 60s vector CAD terminal though I suspect those were timeshare terminals off machines that though very very large and very very expensive would still have more resources than one of our 8-bits. It seems to me a simple proof of concept is possible anyway.

[JamesD]

I saw this after the other post so they are out of order.

 

I PROVED you can't read! It wasn't an insult. I specifically wrote A8s with 128K+ RAM or big secondary storage and you went and claimed it doesn't have memory and other inapplicable trash.

Wow... you proved I can't read? I must be understanding this telepathically.

That would save me the time to reply if you could do that. But that feature also does not exist in you.

And another insult. ("also does not exist in you" < saying I can't read again)

 

Okay, so then I disagree with you. I claim you can do DTP on A8 as described above and before and in 8-bit Era as well and by time St was introduced.

Then we disagree and you "claim".

 

Rather than quote everything and go point by point I'll try to hit the key ramblings...

Insults, IIgs too late and didn't have enough ram standard, ST had 512K and no hard drive, Atari 8 bit had everything then, Atari 8 bit can do everything.

All sorts of crap deleted.

 

The 8 bit era has nothing to do with the topic. You tried to introduce it, I said it had nothing to do with it and you keep harping on it.

Forget the 8 bit era, it's not in the poll or my original post and now I've repeatedly said it.

 

The IIgs had a RAM expansion slot and a RAM board shipped at the same time as the IIgs. There were commercial RAM boards with more RAM than any hack upgrade I've seen for the Atari. Mine has 4MB and an IDE interface... but the entire thing is going further and further from the original post you replied to. I was allowing for a lot of extras by using the IIgs for comparison. 24 bit address buss, hard drive, faster CPU, better graphics for the purpose. Again... it's not about a comparison vs Atari 8 bit, just the most RAM I've seen on a 6502ish system, fast storage and fast CPU.

Forget the IIgs, picture your Atari with 512K or 1024K and a hard drive if you like because otherwise you won't shut up about the IIgs.

 

More importantly, this wasn't about the existence of RAM expansions then or now. It was about size of RAM and speed. Remember me talking about the code size exploding, loop unrolling, running out of stack space, etc...?

Your program would be larger and slower than the ST version. It would require more RAM than the ST.

The ST program pretty much required a hard drive and more than 512K if you wanted to do much.

When your fonts are 100+K in size and even more RAM is required to scale them... 512K disappears really quickly.

If you wanted to use any of the expansion modules for the software, undo buffer, layers... all suck RAM and a professional system will have more than 1MB of RAM. Scaling and rotating true type or postscript fonts requires a lot of CPU power. Scaling and rotating a hi-res true color photo on a fast ST is challenging and sucks huge amounts of RAM. Doing it on a 6502... you are dreaming.

 

You aren't just writing *a* desktop publisher, you are writing a better desktop publisher than on ST and no limits were placed on the machines.

I'm saying you can't do it and prove it if you insist you can.

 

This isn't about a stripped down desktop publisher, it's not about hypothetically possible, it's about "surpasses the ST at Everything" as mentioned in the poll and my original post.

If it doesn't meet that criteria... that answer on the poll can't be true.

[JamesD]

this thread starts again to become like our lovely C64 vs A8 thread...

 

so Albert, close it and we restart again with Apple 2 vs A8 thread... or ZX Spectrum vs A8 thread or Dragon 32 vs A8 thread.

On that I agree.

 

How about... alien anal probes vs the Atari 8 bit.

Either way the answer gets pulled out of your a**.

[flashjazzcat]

I must admit, the recent mention again of the DTP stuff has got me wondering about how fast the puny 6502 could handle stuff like that whilst not looking totally rubbish, at least the A8 would be able to use its hires mode and wide screen stuff for something useful.. Not something I ever considered before, but I was thinking a lot a while back about vector fonts and things and rendering them in realtime, and had some ideas of how you could do it reasonably well.. Not that it progressed very far

It'll progress further - hopefully - when my GUI takes shape. I'm slowly gathering info on vector font rendering, etc, and when I get through this hardware madness I aim to make a start on something which should look every bit as good as GEOS on the C64, and run faster too. I'm going to write the word processor, but I will be farming out other stuff (i.e. DTP) to any interested programmers. So if this thread's still going in a year's time - who knows - it might take a different turn.

[dwhyte]

On that I agree.

 

How about... alien anal probes vs the Atari 8 bit.

Either way the answer gets pulled out of your a**.

 

 

That was funny...

[JamesD]

which is better at keeping you warm...A man made fire or a heater powered by electricity

 

Which is better at cooking the family meal....A man made fire or a cooker powered by electricity

 

which one is the ST and which one is the Atari 8bit

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm all night.

Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

[atariksi]

Add that to the list of "crazy" things you did. Compare 128-color based parrot to ST's 512-color based palette and claim A8 palette is 128 colors.

 

Oh dear, I guess it was crazy, after all there's no way the parrot could actually be reproduced on the A8 using all 128 colours at that resolution. Please feel free to provide a version of the parrot picture on the A8 , oh - and I'm also waiting for an A8 bin/image of the Kaliya picture.

 

Go re-read what you wrote. You claimed that A8 has 128 colors and that's why it was okay for you to use the 128 color picture. You already drew the conclusion-- you weren't waiting for any 256 color picture; in fact, you denied that A8 has 256 color palette.

[atariksi]

When I gave you example of Boulderdash, you drew some absurd conclusion that this proves that ST can do A8 games.

No, actually I wrote code for you to show Boulderdash would be possible ( this is called proof ) - and made a considered statement that any A8 game could be reproduced on the ST.

...

I am talking about the conclusion you drew. It's not proof that any A8 can be reproduced; it's just that you can fit it into the frame's time although still inferior to A8.

[atariksi]

This is completion of my reply to JamesD:

 

...

Sprites and games have nothing to do with desktop publishing.

You are trying to make this a IIgs vs 8 bit argument when it's about desktop publishing on the 8 bit vs ST in reference to the poll.

 

Not only that, I said the Atari 8 bit wasn't superior at everything in reference to the poll and gave examples to support that.

It was clear that anyone voting for #1 in the poll is wrong. I stopped short of using the word fanboy.

 

*YOU* claim I said "has surpassed the A8 in everything".

Nowhere in my posts does it say anything of the kind and I didn't even vote that way.

You are using a straw man argument and it doesn't even relate to the topic.

 

And yet you accuse *me* of not being able to read.

...

I don't really care how one votes, but it's possible that someone can vote A8 has surpassed St in everything and be right. I know a lot of people when I was building science projects who had all sorts of hardware installed in their A8 machines including one he was using to control a Robot. Obviously, he's not going to pick the ST which is lacking hardware support in most areas where A8 isn't. I don't think anyone made a sprite hardware upgrade for ST. And as far as your "straw-man" stuff, I interpreted your constant discussion about DTP to mean that you take that as some form of ultimate test. I don't. I never use DTP even today, but I do claim it's doable on A8.

Well, my original post was about the poll that is the topic that started this, you replied to MY post and tried to twist my words around by saying something I never said. And since I voted consistent with what I was saying then I think it applies.

...

I haven't twisted anything. I am also arguing consistent with what I voted. But I don't accept your speculation that people who votes that A8 can surpass ST in everything is fanboyism.

 

I'm sure *you* don't care because you were trying to say my argument was something totally different and you don't want to admit it.

Now you are talking science projects... which has NOTHING to do with what I said. Again!

No, you yourself stated early on that DTP is impossible on A8. And the science fair is where I saw all the expanded 8-bits in the early 1980s doing stuff the ST can't.

 

To prove it wrong all you need is one thing the ST is better at and it's wrong.

And you haven't provided that thing.

 

Sprite upgrade to the ST? Huh? Now you are trying to make this about sprites AGAIN and I already pointed out that has nothing to do with my original statement which was about desktop publishing.

 

"I interpreted" < notice YOU replied to what you wanted to reply too and not what I said. You messed up and don't want to admit it.

(and accused *me* of not being able to read I might add)

Don't take it too bad yet; you are still misunderstanding. Sprites was an example of hardware feature which ST doesn't have nor any upgrade h/w that allows it do have it.

 

Has anyone EVER seen Atariksi say he was wrong and apologize? Has he ever said "sorry, I misread your post"?

No, somehow he always tries to twist things around... as you'll see below.

...

I don't need to twist things since I only comment on what I know. If you can disprove it, then I'll accept it. I don't see why I should accept your speculation that A8 can't do DTP (that's your main point here).

 

To quote my post... "I also said you could probably do simple CAD stuff on the 8 bit. As a matter of fact, there were some simple house planner CAD programs for the Apple so I think I can safely say I'm sure of it."

I just said I'm sure you could do simple CAD stuff on the Atari because it's being done on the Apple II.

The II didn't have linearly addressed RAM either.

What the hell are you replying to anyway?

You seem to be replying to something completely different.

 

If you agree A8 can do some simple CAD stuff, fine. Then we agree. If you don't know what I'm replying to then you shouldn't be refuting.

You misread my post and started to argue with me. You even quoted my text which even said the 8 bit could do simple CAD stuff!

You were replying to something you THOUGHT I wrote rather that what I actually wrote and you can't even admit you screwed up, but instead try to twist it around against me AGAIN with this:

"if you don't know what I'm replying to then you shouldn't be refuting."

How about this... if you aren't going to read what people are posting, *you* shouldn't be refuting.

...

That actually applies to you more. You didn't even bother addressing the issue that A8s had RAM expansions and hard drives when you kept babbling there's not enough RAM. So apply your criticism to yourself. If A8 can do CAD stuff then you had no point in brining it into the discussion and regardless of how one understands it, it's irrelevant to the point.

 

Let's not forget you accused *me* of not being able to read (clearly a personal attack) and yet you misread what I posted. Then you KEEP going back to your arguments that were to something I never said but you "interpreted".

...

You did misread. I'll find the quote and prove it (when I have time). It's perfectly fine to interpret that you are for some reason stressing DTP as something significant.

 

Oh and... still no proof the Atari 8 bit could surpass the ST at desktop publishing.

We both no it's never going to happen so let it die.

 

First accept that DTP is your main argument. I don't want to address CAD garbage and other stuff.

[PeteD]

Add that to the list of "crazy" things you did. Compare 128-color based parrot to ST's 512-color based palette and claim A8 palette is 128 colors.

 

Oh dear, I guess it was crazy, after all there's no way the parrot could actually be reproduced on the A8 using all 128 colours at that resolution. Please feel free to provide a version of the parrot picture on the A8 , oh - and I'm also waiting for an A8 bin/image of the Kaliya picture.

 

Go re-read what you wrote. You claimed that A8 has 128 colors and that's why it was okay for you to use the 128 color picture. You already drew the conclusion-- you weren't waiting for any 256 color picture; in fact, you denied that A8 has 256 color palette.

 

I believe the original point was in the only A8 mode even remotely resembling any of those images you only have 128 colours. If people posted actual image in 80x200 (like some of the APAC stuff I've been posting or any other "software" mode) you'd cry about that and say showing the palette in that resolution wasn't fair. It would be closer to the true capabilities of the machine, but not fair.. Figures.

 

 

Pete