Harmony Cart Interference

[zagon]

In my interference-testing I have stumbled upon another issue:

 

The Harmony cart menu screen jumps every two seconds or so and randomly hangs while navigating the file list on the SD-card.

This occurs *ONLY* if the TV-switch is set to color and the Harmony cart is flashed with the PAL50 version of the menu.

 

All other menu variants PAL60 and NTSC, color cycling or not, work as expected with the same SD-card.

Also the PAL50 menu works if TV-switch is set to bw.

 

This occurs with the 103c version of the BIOS on both of my Harmony carts.

 

Have anyone else seen this?

[+Philsan]

In my interference-testing I have stumbled upon another issue:

 

The Harmony cart menu screen jumps every two seconds or so and randomly hangs while navigating the file list on the SD-card.

This occurs *ONLY* if the TV-switch is set to color and the Harmony cart is flashed with the PAL50 version of the menu.

 

All other menu variants PAL60 and NTSC, color cycling or not, work as expected with the same SD-card.

Also the PAL50 menu works if TV-switch is set to bw.

 

This occurs with the 103c version of the BIOS on both of my Harmony carts.

 

Have anyone else seen this?

 

I have exactly the same problem with PAL50 firmware!

In the "Harmony cart preorder list" thread ten days ago I have written that I had problems with PAL50 (but I have not described them, quickly flashing cart to PAL60).

With TV switch set to BW the menu works so I think this is only a software bug, not related with interferences.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I have exactly the same problem with PAL50 firmware!

In the "Harmony cart preorder list" thread ten days ago I have written that I had problems with PAL50.

With TV switch set to BW the menu works so I think this is only a software bug, not related with interferences.

Fixing that will be my task then.

[Monk]

What logic indicates that? Anything is still possible, you know. I guess we'll know more when I receive the other cart..

Mine. Maybe your's is different.

 

Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning.. I didn't mean there are different types of logics actually (women's logic isn't really logic at all)

 

I mean, I don't see any logical reason why the Atari individuals couldn't be somehow responsible for the interference - it does happen with many different cartridges, not only the Harmony Cart. The 32-in-1 and Kaboom! and I think even Circus Atari has it - and even Jungle Hunt and so on. How could Harmony Cart cause all this when the interference was there before the Harmony Cart ever came into the same building?

 

So, what kind of logic dictates that it still cannot be the Atari hardware, I would just be interested to hear, I am not saying it can't.. just wanting to keep all options open so far, unless some options are very clearly and obviously, logically and verifiably closed (in which case I'd appreciate an explanation as to why - and also some experiments that I could perhaps run to prove it)

 

Thanks.

 

- Monk

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning..

If exchanging all parts except for the cart itself doesn't change the problem, the cart has to be the problem.

 

Yes, it still could be the hardware, but since the problem is very rare, the chances the one person has the same faulty hardware twice are extremely unlikely.

[Monk]

Heh, I meant that HOW does logic dictate that, actually - I mean what kind of logical reasoning..

If exchanging all parts except for the cart itself doesn't change the problem, the cart has to be the problem.

 

Oh. THAT kind of logic. I don't think it is as simple as that, because it still occurs when you CHANGE the cart (to 32-in-1 for example).

 

Yes, it still could be the hardware, but since the problem is very rare, the chances the one person has the same faulty hardware twice are extremely unlikely.

 

How do you know it is a very rare problem? Two people have already had it with multiple Atari consoles. Who knows if there will be more reports in the future.. perhaps all those who got the Harmony Cart either don't notice the interference, don't care about the interference (because they might think it's normal, always having had it?), or haven't yet tested the cart - or perhaps they are all just LUCKY, having Atari machines which do not react this way to Harmony Cart (and some other carts as well).

 

Well, I shouldn't even be here yet.. I should hold all my ponderings until I can do some more testing.

 

Personally, I think my Ataris and all Philsan's Ataris are just faulty somehow, and react that way to too complex (or not well enough shielded) cartridges. I am pretty sure Philsan's Ataris would react to the 32-in-1 cart exactly the same.

 

- Monk

[+Philsan]

Monk, I don't think all my three different consoles (a VCS bought in Switzerland, a 2600 and a new 2600 jr. bought in Italy) are faulty.

So *in this moment* it is logic to think that our two Harmony carts are faulty.

 

But the fact that no one has noticed the PAL50 firmware bug (apart me and zagon) and the fact that I am the only one to have found that Gunfight doesn't work (because the game is protected) lets me agree with you on the fact that definitely more testing is needed before being sure of any theory.

[maiki]

I don't think this interference is related to Harmony. Something is wrong with your Atari or TV cable. I have 32 in 1 cart and there is no interference like that one you describe here. Just an ordinary analogue goodness with some typical "composite" bleeding. To be honest, I don't get why people mod their consoles since the composite is hardly any better than well tuned RF... at least on my PAL Junior '91 model I have absolutely no complaints about its antenna signal.

[+Philsan]

Fred, what we do now?

Do you think it would be useful to buy a 32 in 1 cart to test it with my three consoles?

I have found a lot of them on Ebay.

Then I could send you my Harmony cart together with 32 in 1 cart.

[+batari]

Fred, what we do now?

Do you think it would be useful to buy a 32 in 1 cart to test it with my three consoles?

I have found a lot of them on Ebay.

Then I could send you my Harmony cart together with 32 in 1 cart.

Probably the best course of action is to wait for Monk to get the second Harmony. If it fixes the problem, I will replace yours and get both carts back to identify the problem. If it does not fix the problem, then yes, a 32-in-1 cart would probably help.

[Monk]

Monk, I don't think all my three different consoles (a VCS bought in Switzerland, a 2600 and a new 2600 jr. bought in Italy) are faulty.

So *in this moment* it is logic to think that our two Harmony carts are faulty.

 

No, it's not. A faulty harmony cart again wouldn't explain the same exact interference in the 32-in-1 (which was there long before I even heard of Harmony Carts).. quite a feat from a non-existent Harmony Cart to perform, eh?

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Monk, I don't think all my three different consoles (a VCS bought in Switzerland, a 2600 and a new 2600 jr. bought in Italy) are faulty.

 

But the fact that no one has noticed the PAL50 firmware bug (apart me and zagon) and the fact that I am the only one to have found that Gunfight doesn't work (because the game is protected) lets me agree with you on the fact that definitely more testing is needed before being sure of any theory.

 

Btw, why couldn't all of your Ataris be faulty? Because the Swiss people make things so accurately? (-8

 

I haven't noticed that bug because I really haven't checked.. doesn't seem worthwhile thing to check considering all the other problems which seem more important - and related to the hassle to do that.. the menu system just works flawlessly to me in PAL60 and NTSC anyway (I really haven't noticed much difference between those BIOS or firmware versions in practical everyday usage anyway)

 

- Monk

[Monk]

I don't think this interference is related to Harmony. Something is wrong with your Atari or TV cable.

 

Of course it's related to Harmony. Original carts do _NOT_ have this problem, Harmony Cart does.

 

If it was a TV cable, are you saying the cable has a sophisticated A.I. and only produces interference to Harmony Cart, 32-in-1 and some others in a lesser extent because it LIKES original carts better? (-8

 

(I said this is quite an explanation-killer.. - multiple carts having that phenomenon, multiple Ataris having it, and yet some original carts being completely FREE of it)

 

- Monk

[Monk]

I have 32 in 1 cart and there is no interference like that one you describe here. Just an ordinary analogue goodness with some typical "composite" bleeding. To be honest, I don't get why people mod their consoles since the composite is hardly any better than well tuned RF... at least on my PAL Junior '91 model I have absolutely no complaints about its antenna signal.

 

This is -=* EXACTLY *=- the situation with many original carts that I have. The pic quality is just PERFECT to my eye, and no disturbing interference can be seen. Only the regular, normal RF one that I like.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Probably the best course of action is to wait for Monk to get the second Harmony. If it fixes the problem, I will replace yours and get both carts back to identify the problem. If it does not fix the problem, then yes, a 32-in-1 cart would probably help.

 

Yeps, perhaps I could receive it today or later this week.. I'll probably know in five hours or six perhaps.

 

If I am still awake and it comes today, I plan to test it immediately with both Ataris I have and then come here to report the findings.

 

Thanks again for sending me the other one btw! I am very willing to send you back the other Harmony Cart and my 32-in-1 too if you wish.. I just like to complete all possible tests first with the other cart (whenever it arrives).

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Okay, I got the new Harmony Cart!

 

The interference is still there, just as it was before.

 

Except.. I am not sure about this, but it seems that the picture quality would be a little bit better with the new one (the menu text being much easier to read, and the colors being more vivid).

 

Also, Pitfall II:Lost Caverns now works! (I didn't test it much but it loaded without any garbled mess like the first cart)

 

I have been making a list of games that don't work with the first cart (like Burger Time and some others), which I hope to test with the new one, and I am sure they will work with the new one.

 

I am not very disappointed, as I kind of knew the interference would still be there. So far I tested this only with the two Atari 2600jr's that I have; the PAL one and the NTSC one, and as far as the interference itself goes, nothing has changed.

 

So it wasn't just one individual buggy cart, as some here suggested.. as I knew it couldn't be, because a buggy cart couldn't cause OTHER carts to have interference, hehe. My guess is that all these Ataris are somehow 'faulty' or badly shielded, or there's something here in Europe that creates that interference that isn't a factor in USA, or then some mystery explanation which I never even thought of.

 

I don't know if Harmony Cart could've been made in such a way that the interference wouldn't be there (after all, it's in the 32-in-1 too), but especially without experiencing it first hand I understand it would've been pretty difficult. But in any case, as many people don't even seem to have this effect, it can't really be Harmony Cart's fault in my opinion.

 

Thank you again, mr. Batari, this new cart is great - finally I can again play Pitfall II - and I can almost swear the picture quality seems just a little bit better than the other cart.. if I ever get that NTSC-(supporting)-television, I'm not even gonna let that interference bother me anymore.. it's more important that the games work and play well anyway.

 

In day or two I might have the opportunity to test the Harmony Cart in an apartment which is much further from any airport, and also which has a Dart Vader model in it. If I remember correctly, also that one had the interference with the 32-in-1, so I am pretty sure it will still have it with Harmony Cart .. would be neat to have some kind of access to lots and lots of Atari machines to be able to test it with so many of them that we could definitely be sure it's not Atari's fault (but I guess it HAS to be either the Atari or the Harmony Cart, and it can't really be the Harmony CArt, because it works with other people without creating this phenomenon)

 

Thank you for your patience, I hope to continue informing you guys of the results when I have the opportunity to conduct the final tests.

 

Sincerely,

 

- Monk

 

p.s. Mr. Batari - please understand that I am still very excited about this Harmony Cart, especially the new one since Pitfall II works etc. I am very grateful for your honesty, your efforts, your very hard work - and also I would like to take this opportunity to thank mr. Walton, mr. Anthony, mr. Delicon, mr. Jentzsch, mr. Payson, mr. Strum and mr. Yarusso! Thank you all, this is a great product and I really love using it!

[Monk]

Ok, now I am totally puzzled.

 

I cannot explain this with ANY logic, this just isn't possible - I must be slipped into the Twilight Zone..

 

I took my PAL Atari 2600jr to my mom's place, to test it there and also to test Harmony Cart with her Darth Vader-model.

 

The results are very puzzling, and I feel really dumb for not being able to figure it out.

 

Firstly, the Darth Vader showed lots of interference. Nothing new or unexpected there.

 

Secondly, MY Atari showed so very very little amount of interference that it was barely noticeable, and heckuva lot less than the Darth Vader model, which showed at least as much interference than MY Atari shows at home, where I live.

 

Now, I used the same PSU, but of course the RF cable was different.

 

If the interference that MY Atari showed in my mom's place was always as small as it was there, I probably wouldn't really even paid any attention to it, EVER.

 

I shot some video, but somehow the camera seems to actually exaggarate the interference a bit in this case - I can't explain it. I mean, if it is the Harmony Cart, the both Ataris would have shown the same amount of interference, right? If it's the Atari, it should show the same interference no matter WHERE it is plugged in! If it's the TV, it would also show the interference with BOTH Atari's exactly the same. same reason why it can't be the PSU or the RF cable or any damn thing..

 

It can't even be the airport vicinity because then the Darth Vader Atari wouldn't have shown any interference!

 

I mean - WHAT THE F???

 

I cannot explain this, I am giving up .. I might put the videos in youtube at some point in time, but remember that the camera exaggarates the smaller interference, so it looks almost as big, although it was barely noticeable and not at all disturbing (also the pic quality was just great, when normally the interference makes it kinda awful).

 

What a weird phenomenon - three different Ataris, two different locations, two different Harmony Carts, two different PSU's, four different televisions, and the interference is the same EXCEPT when my Atari is moved to my mom's place (where the other Atari still shows awfully bad interference)..

 

Aargh, this sounds like some kind of weird fuzzy logic phenomenon or perhaps I am just too sleepy to try to figure this out.. if anyone can, please explain this /-:>

 

- Monk

[Eckhard Stolberg]

Since you are from Finland, I suppose you are using a European 2-prong PSU. Did you try plugging it into the wall outlet upside down from what you normally use? I don't know if a different polarity could cause the kind of interference that you are experiencing, but it might be something that was different between the test at your place and your mom's, so it might be worth a try.

[Monk]

Since you are from Finland, I suppose you are using a European 2-prong PSU. Did you try plugging it into the wall outlet upside down from what you normally use? I don't know if a different polarity could cause the kind of interference that you are experiencing, but it might be something that was different between the test at your place and your mom's, so it might be worth a try.

 

I am not FROM Finland, I just LIVE in Finland right now.

 

I thought about that. BUT, why would that exact same polarity cause lots of interference with the Darth Vader model, and almost nil with MY Atari 2600jr?

 

Besides, I also used a NTSC PSU for the NTSC Atari 2600jr, and the interference was still there. I was thinking myself about the PSU somehow being the fault too.. but I just can't figure out how. But, I am willing to try switching both the PSU's around to see if it has any effect.

 

I am also thinking of trying to purchase more PSU's and try with at least one more different one, or switching the PSU's with my mom to see if that has effect.. it's a really confusing, weird problem.

 

Thanks anyways for your input - it's always encouraging to at least have someone else pondering about this too..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Since you are from Finland, I suppose you are using a European 2-prong PSU. Did you try plugging it into the wall outlet upside down from what you normally use? I don't know if a different polarity could cause the kind of interference that you are experiencing, but it might be something that was different between the test at your place and your mom's, so it might be worth a try.

 

Hi again.

 

I actually did this today, and the results were nil. I mean, it didn't affect at all. I did it with both the PAL and the NTSC Atari. I did notice, that the NTSC seems to suffer even MORE from the interference than the PAL Atari.. none of this makes any sense, but I am starting to expect nothing with this to make sense anymore. I don't think we can ever get to the bottom of this.. it's just gonna remain one of those mysteries that are the curse of my life, I suppose. I just hope Philsan finds some kind of solution though.. would hate someone else to also have the same curse.

 

- Monk

[zagon]

I have now tried a ferrite bead on the RF-cable too. It made no visible difference to me.

However, I have succeded in reducing the interference to a completely acceptable level.

 

The one thing that influences the level of interference I see the most is simply the arrangement of the RF-cable.

I have mentioned this before in this thread but I think its worth repeating since it's such a simple thing to test.

 

The more length of RF-cable I locate closer to the atari and cart, the more interference I see.

If I arrange the cable so it just runs straight away from the atari I see almost no interference.

On the other hand, if I coil it up around the cart I see *lots* of interference (obviously not a good idea).

 

I don't think that my RF-cable is broken, I have tested with two.

 

Monk, Philsan: Do your interference vary at all with the arrangement of your RF-cables?

[Monk]

Monk, Philsan: Do your interference vary at all with the arrangement of your RF-cables?

 

No.

 

I think the interference YOU are talking about, is just the regular RF interference, which is acceptable.

 

Our interference, however, is something compeltely different, and much more annoying, and no cable differences affect it.

 

Of course, I can try and test this theory a bit further, but I really do not think it will affect at all. Besides, how would the RF cable know what cartridge to cause interference to? Wouldn't the interfrence be just as bad with all Ataris then, and all cartridges too?

 

And in all locations.. I was trying to upload this video to youtube yesterday where I show the difference in that interference with the 2600jr and the DarthVader model but there's some fault and I can't seem to get upload done to youtube..

 

Anyway, here is the type of interference I get

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rbwxi7pElk

 

(this is from the NTSC Atari 2600jr, hence no colors or sound)

 

Is YOUR interference identical to this one, or something else?

 

- Monk

[Monk]

I have now tried a ferrite bead on the RF-cable too. It made no visible difference to me.

However, I have succeded in reducing the interference to a completely acceptable level.

 

Oh, this reminds me - I also tried that aluminium foil thing, but it made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Here is the video, I got it uploaded now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVaNDX3EHM

 

You can clearly see how the interference anomaly is stronger with the Darth Vader model than my Atari 2600 jr PAL. In my apartment, however, the interference is equally strong with my Atari 2600 jr PAL.

 

(and even a bit worse with the NTSC version, I think)

 

I don't know how to explain this, I don't know how to try to fix it - I would greatly appreciate good explanations.

 

- Monk

Edited January 18, 2010 by Monk

[+Philsan]

Zagon, as I ("if when you move or bend your cable the interferences change, the problem is in your cable and not in Harmony cart") and Monk have written, I think we are talking about a different thing.

If I move or bend my RF cables I have the classic RF interferences but Harmony cart's "interferences" are different and don't move or change.