Cartrige dumping utility : release it or not ?

[Zerosquare]

As some of you may known, I've written a cartridge dumping utility to help bustern in extracting a Fight for Life beta from a flash cart he bought.

 

I think it would benefit the community to make this program available to everyone. There are several scenarios in which a dumping utility can be useful :

- copying prototype and beta versions

- getting a ROM image of games you own to use on an emulator

- making a back-up of your games

- checking that the contents of cartridges (commercial or self-made) are not corrupted in any way

 

However, a lot of past threads have shown that this topic tends to be controversial.

As I don't want to be the subject of various accusations after the fact, I'd like everyone to post their arguments (pro or against) here before deciding whether I will release this utility or not.

 

Forewarning : whatever your opinion is, please offer solid and constructive arguments, and remain polite. I don't want to see this topic locked, and I'll notify a moderator if things go out of hand in any way. Thank you.

[+Mitch]

While I personally wouldn't mind having a copy just for future reference it's not something that I would need at present.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid whatever you decide you will get negative feedback.

 

Quick question that just occurred to me, does it backup save game data? Now that would be useful.

 

Mitch

[primeform]

dude release it. all the haters on here are going to die alone in there moms basements anyways.

 

 

ill direct there hating towards me instead

Edited April 13, 2010 by primeform

[Zerosquare]

Quick question that just occurred to me, does it backup save game data? Now that would be useful.

At the moment, it doesn't. But this is a very good idea for a new feature

Supporting the Memory Cart would be interesting too.

[potatohead]

Releasing it is a good thing. It's a good development tool, and like any good tool, could be used to do bad things, but can also be used to good things.

 

Over time, the number of people involved with the community will change. Some will stay, come, go, return, etc...

 

In the end, if things remain sufficiently closed, the productivity of that community may not reach the potential it otherwise would. The end game being, the more accessible the system is, the more robust the community around it is, and that value add is likely to offset the value loss over what a few clowns may choose to do. Given they will in the end, do it anyway, why not set the tone, get more of the right people doing the right kinds of things more often than not now, rather than try to establish that later when it's likely interest may be significantly less?

[primeform]

Releasing it is a good thing. It's a good development tool, and like any good tool, could be used to do bad things, but can also be used to good things.

 

Over time, the number of people involved with the community will change. Some will stay, come, go, return, etc...

 

In the end, if things remain sufficiently closed, the productivity of that community may not reach the potential it otherwise would. The end game being, the more accessible the system is, the more robust the community around it is, and that value add is likely to offset the value loss over what a few clowns may choose to do. Given they will in the end, do it anyway, why not set the tone, get more of the right people doing the right kinds of things more often than not now, rather than try to establish that later when it's likely interest may be significantly less?

 

 

thats what i meant...

[potatohead]

Cheers

[busterm]

I personally support the program with out it I would of not be able to get the image of the flashcart. Which im very very thankful for =P

 

I do see were controversy would rise with future releases. I know for the skunkboard developers can lock out the device in there game code as least from what I somewhat remember. I wonder if this could also be done with this program. So as not to hamper any future cartridge releases form the likes of Songbird or Force design and so on.

 

Is it possible to implement such a thing were it could maybe check the header before dumping the game. If thats even possible. Im speaking in theory only here

 

I do also acknowledge that in order to use this program the user has a good deal of things he must accomplish first (so i doubt average users would even use it), to the point its probably no more difficult to just remove the eprom from the cartridges and dump them with the low price of eprom programmers/readers these days on ebay.

 

Regardless I full support ZS decision one way or the other.

[doctorclu]

I am also for this, and think it would be a great tool, especially if other flash carts should emerge with unique rom images. This tool could port the image and make it possible to free up the flash cart for other development use.

[Zerosquare]

Is it possible to implement such a thing were it could maybe check the header before dumping the game. If thats even possible. Im speaking in theory only here

It's possible, but since the software is going to be open-source, it would be easy for someone to disable the check.

 

On the other hand, it's not as if it was the only way to dump Jaguar cartridges : besides desoldering ROMs, there is another (non-invasive) way that I know of. It's more difficult for an average user, but it didn't prevent existing games from being dumped (including those that shouldn't have been, unfortunately). So I think the release of this tool would make little difference for those with dishonest intentions. But I believe it can be helpful for honest people.

[+rdemming]

Quick question that just occurred to me, does it backup save game data? Now that would be useful.

 

Although it does not backup the save game data, Matthias EEPROM browser utility is very interesting.

Of course a EEPROM backup utility should also be able to restore the data.

 

Robert

[busterm]

Is it possible to implement such a thing were it could maybe check the header before dumping the game. If thats even possible. Im speaking in theory only here

It's possible, but since the software is going to be open-source, it would be easy for someone to disable the check.

 

On the other hand, it's not as if it was the only way to dump Jaguar cartridges : besides desoldering ROMs, there is another (non-invasive) way that I know of. It's more difficult for an average user, but it didn't prevent existing games from being dumped (including those that shouldn't have been, unfortunately). So I think the release of this tool would make little difference for those with dishonest intentions. But I believe it can be helpful for honest people.

 

You've got a very good point there ZS,your absolutely right.

 

Im also intrigued by hopefully being able to dump the save ram. I cant tell you how pissed I was a couple weeks ago when i by mistake overwrote my Pitfall save game at the final boss errr the horror.

 

Now what would be super duper crazy awesome if the program could allow one to dump the save ram and then later re-upload it back to the cartridge. If thats even remotely possible. Again im just speaking in theory here but the save ram is writable. But how kewl would it be to share save files with fellow members kind of like the old PSX days.

 

I would split the lottery for a save file of Towers II near the end =P

Edited April 13, 2010 by busterm

[Zerosquare]

Im also intrigued by hopefully being able to dump the save ram. I cant tell you how pissed I was a couple weeks ago when i by mistake overwrote my Pitfall save game at the final boss errr the horror.

 

Now what would be super duper crazy awesome if the program could allow one to dump the save ram and then later re-upload it back to the cartridge. If thats even remotely possible.

Yes, this is technically possible. You would even be able to exchange saves between an emulator and a real cartridge (I even have one good reason to implement it : I'm much better at Tempest 2000 when using a keyboard than when using the Jaguar pad )

[Starcat]

Quick question that just occurred to me, does it backup save game data? Now that would be useful.

At the moment, it doesn't. But this is a very good idea for a new feature

Supporting the Memory Cart would be interesting too.

 

Zerosquare, Matthias wrote a tool that displays the conent of the savegame eeprom a while ago.

I'm not sure if the source is also on his website, but it might.

Maybe it helps you implement a feature to backup savegames, unless of course you already know how to do it.

 

The thing to think about regarding a release of your tool is, that people could exchange roms after dumping.

Then again, this has been done a long time ago already. Not so much inside the Jaguar community but in the emulation community. So does it affect the Jaguar community much? I don't know.

 

Not so many people have the means to run rom images on the jaguar itself and even if they did, they are Jag fans and probably either own the original or plan to buy it at some point if they like it.

 

Most people who pirate roms use them on an emulator and they don't really care about the Jag as a system, I think. They would never buy the games, they are just hording what they can get for free.

 

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want my games to be dumped and distributed somewhere without my permission either.

However I believe rom dumps of games like avp, t2k etc didn't hurt the value or demand of the actual games.

 

Maybe it would make more sense to do some kind of poll, as there will always be people that approve of it as a tool, while others disapprove and see it a way to pirate games.

 

Regards, Lars.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Starcat

[Starcat]

Sorry, Robert. Didn't see your post before.

[GroovyBee]

Just release it. A tool like this can be used for both good and bad. Collectors for the jag will always want the real game on cartridge or CD. There is no substitute for having the real thing. Look at how many times a homebrew game binary is released for any retro system and fans/collectors start asking for a physical copy.

 

Take for example the recent 2600 sale of Air Raid :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/160607-my-air-raid-auction-update/page__view__findpost__p__1985273

 

The boxed cart sold for $31,600 and yet its ROM image is freely available on AA for download. Collectors will always have their own Holy Grail for any system.

 

If you release the tool the following will happen :-

- Shouting, name calling and finger pointing from the vocal minority.

- Collectors will still want new homebrew carts and CDs.

- Battlesphere will still demand a hefty price tag between collectors.

- People who don't buy new homebrew jag games will keep on not buying.

- People who pirate games will keep on pirating games.

- People who play ROM images in emulators will keep on playing ROM images.

- The world keeps on turning.

 

If you don't release the tool the following will happen :-

- Shouting, name calling and finger pointing from the vocal minority.

- Collectors will still want new homebrew carts and CDs.

- Battlesphere will still demand a hefty price tag between collectors.

- People who don't buy new homebrew jag games will keep on not buying.

- People who pirate games will keep on pirating games.

- People who play ROM images in emulators will keep on playing ROM images.

- The world keeps on turning.

 

So, no change either way.

[Atari_Owl]

I have my doubts that it would be used as a tool (however noble the initial intentions) - there have been games released, even including the source code and yet nothing ever came of them - the idea that it would be used for hacks to games for which even less information has been released seems beyond unlikely.

 

Having said that - i'm not deluded enough to think anybody will listen.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Atari_Owl

[ovalbugmann]

Sure Zero! I say hell yeah - go ahead and release it!

 

This if you think about it could be a very important release. A changing of the guard in a new Jaguar era. It could be a turning point in Jaguar Community history, a more open, positive and trusting direction. Whereas in the past, this particular utility was the prime tool in the Jag software pirate's black tool bag - now with everybody having it we'll all be responsible for respecting people's stated IP wishes.

 

I also, have a flashcart with a Jaguar beta on it that I need to get off there, because I would like to use it to load other things, but can't because I don't want to loose the beta. I would be interested in the non-invasive method, you have mentioned as I would like to extract the data without soldering, if that's possible....?

[potatohead]

IMHO, the primary reason for no real activity on source releases is the Jaguar is hard to develop on. That is being worked on, and it's a good thing.

 

A secondary reason is poor overall availability of development hardware, and the poor state of emulation. Lots of stuff gets written for lots of systems, because they are simply avaliable. Somebody gets a bug, sees the tools there, and they jam on it for a while. Lots of times, this results in nothing but a person having a good time, but not always. Everybody is really interested in the "not always", and that's the core of homebrew / indie gaming right there.

 

Down the list somewhere, I don't know where, another significant reason is the vitriol over actually doing stuff with a Jaguar. Somebody sees the box, thinks it might be fun to bang on, asks the wrong question, and *BAM!*. They recover from that, and go find a Dreamcast

 

I reviewed a top-notch DC release last issue. Know what? It was bad ass fun, well produced, and the easiest thing in the world to pirate. Hell, we had shipping trouble, and I asked for, and received an ISO, with the magazine name in the title screen, so they could feel good about that ISO getting out. Did the review on that, saw the real copy hit my door, finished up on that.

 

That release came in Jewel case, was on a nice, professionally mastered CD, and came with some great art, both in game, and on media.

 

In the end, that's totally worth the $$$ (which is why it was reviewed) You know those guys would never have finished the project, had they been focused on all the bad things that could potentially happen. What they did was focus on value for those wanting to buy in and play the thing straight up.

 

Something to think about.

Edited April 13, 2010 by potatohead

[potatohead]

Dang, just missed my edit window. Well, I had a follow on thought that might make some people more happy. Not totally grooving happy, but maybe move them from unhappy campers to stoic ones!

 

On run of the tool, with successful detection of hardware, have the user first read a little story about "bobby the pirate and the harm he has caused the world" Be sure this scrolls, and has some simple humor, just because.

 

In that story, embed a random numeric code greater than 6 digits, written long form, so they have to write it down, or really work hard to remember, and present it graphically, so that a cut 'n paste for a script won't work well without PITA OCR

 

,then input to a prompt:

 

"I promise on my Mamma, and all that is good, wholesome, and righteous, not to pirate games; knowing I will suffer eternal damnation should I forget the promise I have made today [promise code]." And do an exact match on that, case, spaces, grammar, etc...

 

On successful promise, graphically display the happy fun Jaguar guy, who doesn't pirate. Be sure and make the facial expression and character posture, extra in your face gloating happy, with a thumb up, wink in the eye, that just reeks of "yeah, you are one of us!", just for fun!

 

A clear demonstration of the power inherent in community norms in action right there!

 

Cheers again all!

Edited April 13, 2010 by potatohead

[Starcat]

I have my doubts that it would be used as a tool (however noble the initial intentions) - there have been games released, even including the source code and yet nothing ever came of them - the idea that it would be used for hacks to games for which even less information has been released seems beyond unlikely.

 

That's sadly very true, as well. There is a lot of stuff out there, especially source codes to official games, that are not used except maybe for very few people who are far enough to develop such a game themselves and being curious how atari did it and how they can do it better.

[sh3-rg]

I'd say just release the tool in a form that only saves out the atari flash cart so prototypes can be preserved & maybe then shared. Although it might be fun to be able to load/save save game data to & from a production cart, I'm not sure I'd go as far as BJLing a jaguar even if the tool could do that.

[jaguar_fan]

Personally, I do not care if the Cartridge dumping utility will be released or not. I have all carts ever availabe in my possession and use them as they are.

 

However, should I ever get a flash cart in my hands with something on it to preserve, then I would be glad to have such a dumping utility, so I can save whatever is on that flash cart.

 

I see a clear tendency that most people would like to have that utility...

[Lendorien]

I don't own a Jag, nor have I ever played one. With that caveat in place, I will say that my opinion is that you ought to release this tool. The Jag, from all my reading about it, has a dearth of development tools available for it. While this one could be used for nefarious purposes, the good will undoubtedly outweigh the bad by expanding the tools available for future hackers/developers.

 

I think I used up my limit of two dollar words for the day.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Lendorien

[overridex]

I think most things have already been said here, but I'd like to see it released - especially open source so it can get some Linux love. I'd like to help in getting the open source Virtual Jaguar emulator working better but it's hard to motivate myself without using my favorite games to test with.

 

I think having more tools available for the Jaguar is a good thing, there are already other ways to dump roms for those who really want to do it for the wrong reasons. There should be something out there for the people doing it for the right reasons.

 

-Dan