Nolan Bushnell Appointed to Atari Board

[jaybird3rd]

I think that depends...

In general, yes.. For the non technical person, definitely.

 

But, if you are in a competing (or planning to) business and you see this new product/idea and honestly think you can do better, then I think that makes perfect sense...

 

And saying that it borders on foolish? Really?

 

On one level, seeing that and just saying "That's great, but I think we can do better," makes sense.

 

But I can very easily see a tech with vision and ability looking at it and saying "That's new, but they could have done it much better..."

 

I don't see how the latter in any way "borders on the foolish?"

 

Can't we all just get along!!

 

desiv

Bill isn't saying that it's foolish for someone to spot the flaws in a first-of-its-kind product and to build another product that improves upon the original idea. He's saying that it's foolish for us to look back and criticize the first-of-its-kind product without considering it in its proper historical context.

 

We have the benefit of the clarity of hindsight and knowledge of what came afterward, so it's easy for us to speculate from our armchairs about how the original inventor should have done this or that differently. This approach is ahistorical and arrogant. When one looks at it from the point of view of a historian, who must consider how rudimentary the technology was and how little experiential knowledge was available at the time, one has to recognize that the Odyssey was indeed a groundbreaking achievement.

 

Once that ground was broken, it made it possible for other innovators to come along and figure out what else could be done with that initial idea. But the fact that their subsequent products were better than the original takes nothing away from the importance of that initial achievement, which is why Baer is more than deserving of the recognition he has received.

[desiv]

Bill isn't saying that it's foolish for someone to spot the flaws in a first-of-its-kind product and to build another product that improves upon the original idea. He's saying that it's foolish for us to look back and criticize the first-of-its-kind product without considering it in its proper historical context.

Maybe :-)

As I said, it probably would be for us (well, me anyway) to do that.

But he was responding to Owen's statement (I think, this thread confuses me.. :-). That would fit more in the area you mentioned first, as Owen was looking at it as his history and how he felt..

 

Hmm... I'm not sure that's any more clear..

 

Well, I think I thought I knew what I meant..

 

desiv

[Ransom]

That I'll second and agree with. You generally expect the first of most anything to be equals parts WOW! and WTF?! Something we see over and over again especially with consumer products is that it doesn't necessarily pay to be the first to do anything. The history of the light bulb, the steam engine, and many other things were like this.

 

Yup. Disneyland opening day attractions make the place look like a sure loser, on paper...from the perspective of 2010. Or even from 1959. But it still blew everyone away its opening season in 1955, with this seemingly unspectacular list of attractions:

 

MAIN STREET USA

Horse-Drawn Fire Wagon

Horse-Drawn Street Cars

Horse-Drawn Surreys

Main Street Cinema

Main Street Penny Arcade

Santa Fe / Disneyland Railroad

 

ADVENTURELAND

Jungle Cruise

 

FRONTIERLAND

Davy Crockett Arcade

Golden Horseshoe Revue at Slue Foot Sue's Golden Horseshoe Saloon

Mark Twain Steamboat

Pack Mules

Stage Coaches

 

FANTASYLAND

Canal Boats of the World

King Arthur Carrousel

Mad Tea Party

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride

Peter Pan's Flight

Snow White's Adventures

 

TOMORROWLAND

Autopia

Circarama USA (presenting the film 'A Tour of the West')

Monsanto Hall of Chemistry

Space Station X-1

[BassGuitari]

I like Pong AND Odyssey (specifically the 100, 200, etc.)... Pong is a simpler and arguably more exciting game, but the Odyssey, with its "etch-a-sketch" controls and English control, is a more cerebral and strategic game in that scoring comes from outmaneuvering and faking out your opponent, rather than reflexes alone. They're both great games, and both (and their respective offspring) have proud places in my personal collection; they're just different. (Opinion, of course.)

 

I respect and admire both Ralph Baer and Nolan Bushnell, as well as people like Ted Dabney and Al Alcorn and Owen Rubin and others. I think it's clear that Ralph's and Nolan's contributions to the video game industry differ in many respects, but it can't be denied that without either one of them, things would be very different today.

 

I think it's unfortunate the way things went down between Nolan and Ralph, but sometimes that's just a fact of business. As far as their current feud/misunderstanding goes...well, I guess that's up to them. I hope they find their peace.

 

Sincerely,

 

Team Nolph

Edited April 29, 2010 by BassGuitari

[orubin]

Owen, you're entitled to your opinions...

 

Yea, I am.

 

You know, I started a very long reply to this last message of your, to answer your arguments, and then asked myself, why am I bothering? (long post deleted.)

 

But I really have no time for people who make personal attacks to make their point. I have no time for people who lecture rather than discuss. I have no time for your obvious dislike of Nolan, and the bile that flows in your words. I have no time to be caught up in some petty arguments that you alone believe have the correct answer. I have no time for answering people who think that only they know what is right. (Curious, do you keep terabytes of old emails and posts so you can make your point. <-- Rhetorical question!)

 

I am sorry, but I have had discussions with people who argue like this, and I find them a total waste of time. It is clear that you obviously do not care what other think. You come across bitter and argumentative, you seem to thrive on the conflict (my opinions again), and you take to personal attacks (not opinion.) I am open to discussion, not to attacks or bullying. Quite frankly, I am not interested in continuing here at all because of you. Sorry to others, but this last post, of someone who has supposedly moved on, as I said before, is reason enough to stop posting on this board.

 

Please do, hopefully it'll give you time to reflect and move on like everyone agreed to.

 

Reflect? Seriously, this from you? Riiiight!

 

Everyone's moved on? Really? As you have demonstrated, you have not moved anywhere. When do you reflect and move on? <-- Rhetorical question again!

 

My apologies to everyone else. Sorry, I came late to the game, and quite frankly, missed the whole thing while active, and got caught up in the reading of the thread. I would have moved on after my last post (since I never got my opinion out, I need one last post), but this one person obviously does not want this all to end yet.

 

So, I will end it. I will move around him, and not only move on, but move out as well.

 

With guys like wgungfu involved on this board, I have no desire to be part of these discussions. I can see what discussions here will be like when he argues every nit pick detail with a stack of references, emails, posts, facebook pages, and all, just to prove how right he is. Sorry, not interested. I will happily answer questions emailed to me via my website (this invite not for you wgungfu, please do not email me) and be happy to partake of any conversation he is not part of. But this kind of vitriolic nonsense is not worth my time, it just sucks me in, and as I said before when I was surprised that Nolan was still responding, if I were him, I would leave. Now it has started, I am leaving.

 

Good bye. Email me when wgungfu has left the building, and I may return. Until then, happy gaming, and enjoy your battles here too.

 

-Owen-

Edited April 29, 2010 by orubin

[Lynxpro]

Even when Ralph has multiple times extended his hand towards said parties in the efforts of clearing the air - only to have it promptly bitten. (And yes, we have copies of the most recent email exchange with that as well).

 

 

That seems rather one-sided to me. Sure, I'm a biased Atari fan - and I admit that - but if one watches the various interviews Mr. Baer has given this past decade, it seems like he is bitter and still believes Atari (Nolan, Al, etc.) ripped him off. I am referring to interviews that he gave to G4 - Icons - and the Discovery Channel, not to mention interviews given on various websites. Perhaps that's the way they were edited/cut or perhaps the interviewers were deliberately leading him into giving such answers but that's the impression viewers and readers will make in a lot of cases. As a viewer of these programs - albeit biased as I am - I would not fault Nolan & Co. for behaving as such. I see no reason why they should be the only ones expected of taking the high road in public.

 

Maybe a group hug is in order between the two groups at the next expo. Maybe they can all agree to share their disdain for some other former competitor, like the Intellivision folks!

[accousticguitar]

orubin, if you check the other threads on this site you will find that most of them are positive threads talking about various aspects of video games. Some threads turn to negative arguing but that is not the norm. If all threads were like this one I wouldn't hang around at all, but they are not and I do. This site has a lot of good things to offer so please don't judge it on this one thread.

[Ransom]

What a wasted opportunity.

[iwan-iwanowitsch-goratschin]

 

 

So, I will end it. I will move around him, and not only move on, but move out as well.

 

 

 

 

You should stay and share your memories with us and try to ignore the bad vibrations...........

[rolenta]

Oh, the anti-Nolan team is going to allow us to move on if we accept your opinions about Nolan, Ralph, early Atari, and the Odyssey?

 

Nobody here is anti-Nolan. All we want is to document the correct history, and not one that was either fabricated or taken from unreliable memories.

[Emehr]

If it's not possible to get historical facts and still be tactful, respectful, and more tolerant to each other maybe we're better off not reading whatever book comes out of this.

[kool kitty89]

Well if Mr. Rubin is ignorant of that then it does lead creedence to the idea that Baer wasn't the only one capable of figuring out how to use digital logic to generate a video signal. I strongly suspect that nobody at Atari looked to or at any of Baer's circuitry when designing their games. I understand that years later even Nintendo was getting beaten over the head with those patents and I even more strongly suspect they were able to figure that out for themselves.

Umm... That's a given, Ted designed the video circuitry... Computer Space would have been the first area of contention, and Magnavox would have likely sued Nutting had Computer Space been successful. Maganvox had the rights to Baer's patents which were not simply for a game, but the fundamental digital mechanism used to control a VIDEO (NOT CRT!) display for an entertainment device created in the 60s, hence why they successfully got royalties from (or sued pretty much every other video game company in North America until the patents expired. (that included nintendo)

I'm not even sure there was a suit brought against pong for being a "clone" of Baer's tennis game; at very least that wasn't the main.

They couldn't sue for vector based games though (and obviously didn't get royalties). I'm not sure if galaxy game is raster or vector, but if vector, that's one that predated computer space at least. (albeit Baer's work still predated that, though Magnavox's commercial implementation was later)

Had arcade PONG manipulated a vector display, they couldn't have successfully sued except perhaps over it being a tennis game. (assuming there were any patents applying to an electronic/CRT Tennis game and not specifically a video tennis game -which vector is NOT)

[kool kitty89]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to trash the very first home videogame system in that manner, when there were no other home videogame or computer systems whatsoever to compare it against. That's like trashing the Model T or the Wright Flyer. It's one thing not to enjoy the implementation/execution, but to disparage them for perceived technical flaws borders on the foolish. The Odyssey (or more correctly, the Brown Box prototype from the PREVIOUS decade) was created with NO OTHER point of reference other than things like board games. Sure, it had some flaws (many of which were a result of Magnavox decisions), but as the very first product of its kind EVER, it got a LOT of things right, and a LOT of things that would be found in later systems, like removable cartridges (even if they were just dip switches to turn internal features on or off), removable controllers, a light rifle, a TV switch box, etc. It's also true that it had a few variations of what can be considered prototypical Pong games, but again, they were FIRST and they were more ADVANCED than what Pong ultimately was. The genius of Pong was distilling the gameplay down to the bare minimum, which made it more approachable for more people and arguably more fun.

In some ways it's more complex too, like bi-axial control of the paddles, though in honestly complex control is more of a detriment for the mass market. (as computer space showed)

 

But in particular: there really was nothing else to base it off, you had real life tennis and table tennis and some other racket sports, but the best example of the boundaries and set-up pong had of such was probably racket ball, with the walls reflecting the balls.

I was thinking that air hockey would have been a good example, but I discovered that it was only about as old as Pong, or slightly newer actually. (in commercial form, and significantly newer than Baer's designs) So that puts thing in better context, and indeed even makes PONG seem a bit more innovative. (otherwise it really is quite similar to Air Hockey)

Some of the limitations would likely have become more apparent with actual experience playing the games. (like boundaries for the paddles/players, if not in the 1-Dimensional limits Pong used) Sound and color already been feature Magnavox chose to omit, though I'm not sure about an on-board score display. (if not on the screen, an LED or VFD digital score display could have been used -like many TVs did prior to on-screen displays- or at least, a manual counter like some later Pong clones and Fooseball tables used) Had it been there, Magnavox would have likely cut out anything but a manual counter anyway though... (given sound and color)

 

So because you're on an Atari-themed site, all logic, all practicality, and the reality of history should be thrown out for blind fanboy-ism? Doesn't seem like much fun to me, but then that's my opinion and you certainly have yours.

Wow, that almost exactly matches my thoughts... I'm a general retro/game/tech fan as well as a bit of a history buff, so I really care about the actual truth, whether that fits my ideas and makes me happy or not. Before I got into some of these detailed discussions, I was stuck with many of the common/ignorant misconceptions (that goes for Sega and Atari, among other things -actually similarly with a WWII aviation forum too, a couple years back).

I'm very grateful for people like Curt and Marty, really digging for the facts behind so much history. If it hadn't been for that I wouldn't know some of the real details surrounding Atari Inc/Warner, the Nintendo and Amiga dealings, and the Tramiel era.

 

His basic concept is that he's playing the games on the Odyssey today with his son, but pretending it's 1972. You might be surprised how impressive this "junk" really is given the technology of the day, keeping in mind Atari's home Pong (through Sears) did not make an appearance until 1975 (three years later), and the first recognizable personal computers did not make an appearance until 1977 (five years later).

Playing the odyssey requires a bit more discretion as well due to the lesser limitations (more open-endedness) of the games compared to Pong. (score keeping, staying within boundaries, playing fair etc)

 

As for home pong consoles, year Atari didn't have their/Sears's out until around the same time Magnavox had their 100/200 series out too.

Edited April 29, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Chickybaby]

Yes, this is Atari Age and his Screen name is WGUNGFU.

You most certainly are intitled to your opinion on the Magnavox. But, lets all at least try to be polite with differing opinions and work with facts as opposed to any adjective calling. I suppose anyone posting at this point could be considered "late" however there have been some interesting facts presented as well as the opportunity for all to express their point of view.

Thanks and have a good day all.

 

If it's not possible to get historical facts and still be tactful, respectful, and more tolerant to each other maybe we're better off not...

 

Totally Agree with that portion.

 

Hey wangfu, get over it. I am entitled to my opinion of the shitty odyssey: The Odyssey is total crapola and I wouldn't take one if given one. Do you have a problem with my opinion? if so then it's you who is acting childish, because adults accept others' opinions.

 

Don't call me childish because I happen to agree with Owen here either, the Odyssey is Shiite(IMHO). DO NOT TAKE IT OUT ON ME IF YOU HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH OWEN, PAL. Accept other adults opinions without the "my dad can beat up your dad mentality" - who is really acting childish here??????????? man. Just because Ralph has been made aware of this thread and the old man MAY be reading this is no reason for me to sugercoat what the odyssey was(to me), it was not enjoyable to me so I sold mine, just like the multitudes that returned theirs and it's also why it was cancelled, I am sure. It sold 300,000 units because in 1972 that's all there really was for the home. I know it was called "Odyssey" and NOT "Odyssey 1" - I put the "1" there just to be clear that I was not including the Odyssey 2 system in my dissatisfaction with the Odyssey. I DO like the Odyssey 2 system and think it is miles better than the Odyssey 1.

 

What site are you on anyway wangfu? I think this site is called Atariage, not Magnavox-age. You should expect people to defend Atari here, first and foremost.

 

If it makes you feel any better opinions are like @$$holes -everyone has one, including you(as well as me).

 

If you and the OP and Curt would have simply taken your personal shit with Nolan into PM or email we would have not had this terrible thread. If you or anybody starts calling me names because you do not agree with my opinion then I will report your post, because I will not be reduced to name calling. Al doesn't want it, so I don't do it.

 

You'd have to compare home PONG to the Odyssey 100/200, etc. for that to be logical

 

Was there not a Pong game on the Odyssey?

 

Why is it that programmers think they are so much better than people who don't program?

 

A little late to the fight aren't you LG? You want to stick your nose in it now? - fine lets go then lynxman:

 

A: I don't think arguing back and forth about who the hell did what 30+ years ago is productive in public, and at the same time questioning who really is NolanB in his posts!, because Curt says they don't add up to what he feels Nolan would say. Curt says he's known Nolan for 12+ years then you would think they would have things settled by now, don't you think? I don't know what Bruce Lee's "Gung Fu" has to do with all this or who he is or what he did in the history Videogames but he sure has a beef with "wormy" Nolan to start this thread, knowing there are Nolan fans here. I feel they all should have figured this out in emails, PMs, Facebook, Phone, videoconference, etc. and get to some agreement, THEN come here and explain why history as it's written by people such as Kent are wrong and then present themselves in a coherent, agreeable manner to take questions from the public. This way the public could have gotten in a fan question or two and not be in the middle of a who did the most for videogames trip. That would have been the professional and respectful thing to do.

 

But no, the OP has a problem with Nolan and he wanted to air it in public, well then your going to get public comments from others such as myself. I only wanted to ask Nolan a Question or two. Point is why start a negative thread like this "wormy Nolan!"(and on an Atari fan site!)for people to disagree with and fight about. I guess some people get off on the chaos and bickering. He should have taken care of it directly with Nolan. Curt could have got Marty in touch with Nolan if he doesn't already know him. Then after there is basic agreement then come here and tell where history is wrong and take some questions. I want to the story and truth also LG, but not this way as this will go on and on until the thread is locked.

[Atari2600Lives]

Nice to see all the gaming Gods that joined the thread.

 

I have to ask something , if Nolan Bushnell had never exsisted would we be here (right now) posting on a forum called Atari age?

 

I rest my case....

Edited April 30, 2010 by Atari2600Lives

[Curt Vendel]

Owen!

 

Come on.... I just got back with more cookies dammit!

 

Now you march yourself right back here young man...

 

oh, wait -- you're a little older then me, forgot about that...

 

Well, either way, you can't leave cause... well, just because. So there!

 

 

Curt

 

Owen, you're entitled to your opinions...

 

Yea, I am.

 

You know, I started a very long reply to this last message of your, to answer your arguments, and then asked myself, why am I bothering? (long post deleted.)

 

But I really have no time for people who make personal attacks to make their point. I have no time for people who lecture rather than discuss. I have no time for your obvious dislike of Nolan, and the bile that flows in your words. I have no time to be caught up in some petty arguments that you alone believe have the correct answer. I have no time for answering people who think that only they know what is right. (Curious, do you keep terabytes of old emails and posts so you can make your point. <-- Rhetorical question!)

 

I am sorry, but I have had discussions with people who argue like this, and I find them a total waste of time. It is clear that you obviously do not care what other think. You come across bitter and argumentative, you seem to thrive on the conflict (my opinions again), and you take to personal attacks (not opinion.) I am open to discussion, not to attacks or bullying. Quite frankly, I am not interested in continuing here at all because of you. Sorry to others, but this last post, of someone who has supposedly moved on, as I said before, is reason enough to stop posting on this board.

 

Please do, hopefully it'll give you time to reflect and move on like everyone agreed to.

 

Reflect? Seriously, this from you? Riiiight!

 

Everyone's moved on? Really? As you have demonstrated, you have not moved anywhere. When do you reflect and move on? <-- Rhetorical question again!

 

My apologies to everyone else. Sorry, I came late to the game, and quite frankly, missed the whole thing while active, and got caught up in the reading of the thread. I would have moved on after my last post (since I never got my opinion out, I need one last post), but this one person obviously does not want this all to end yet.

 

So, I will end it. I will move around him, and not only move on, but move out as well.

 

With guys like wgungfu involved on this board, I have no desire to be part of these discussions. I can see what discussions here will be like when he argues every nit pick detail with a stack of references, emails, posts, facebook pages, and all, just to prove how right he is. Sorry, not interested. I will happily answer questions emailed to me via my website (this invite not for you wgungfu, please do not email me) and be happy to partake of any conversation he is not part of. But this kind of vitriolic nonsense is not worth my time, it just sucks me in, and as I said before when I was surprised that Nolan was still responding, if I were him, I would leave. Now it has started, I am leaving.

 

Good bye. Email me when wgungfu has left the building, and I may return. Until then, happy gaming, and enjoy your battles here too.

 

-Owen-

[Curt Vendel]

hmmmm...

 

Well, Magnavox had a game and then dozens of other companies popped up shortly there after. Channel F and RCA Studio come out.

 

So we are missing the 2600, so now does Odyssey2 happen and does Mattel jump into the fray with Intellivision...

 

Coin-op would've happened with Bally Midway, Williams and others for certain, but maybe they would've been delayed a year or 18months or so. Galaxy was around at Stamford, it was a coin-op game. Certainly someone would've adapted it or Steve Russell's Space War to a dedicated machine too...

 

So without Atari, its true - we might be on MagnavoxAge or perhaps FairchildAge or GalaxyAge (Bill Pitts Galaxy which came out about 2 months before Nutting Computer Space)

 

 

Curt

 

Nice to see all the gaming Gods that joined the thread.

 

I have to ask something , if Nolan Bushnell had never exsisted would we be here (right now) positing on a forum called Atari age?

 

I rest my case....

[+Psionic]

So Owen Rubin is "leaving"? When did he ever post here to begin with before this debacle? I suspect that fit was thrown simply to elicit a reaction from the same clowns that are whining about Nolan being "driven away by Curt and Marty".

 

When confronted by facts, just start pissing and whining? Nice. Took some cheap shots at Ralph Baer too. That was classy. Pity he's leaving...isn't he going to tear into Ted as well?

 

The first rant was somewhat excusable, but all that garbage he just posted was pathetic. Any respect I had for that guy is pretty much gone. Hope he doesn't drop his rattle on the way back to the playpen.

[The_Laird]

I do think I need to get some of these rose tinted glasses alot of people seem to be wearing, maybe Al should start selling them in the AA store

 

[Cebus Capucinis]

I do think I need to get some of these rose tinted glasses alot of people seem to be wearing, maybe Al should start selling them in the AA store

 

 

Buy my lamp and put in a pink light bulb!

[Buck]

So..uh..psst... Hey man, where can I get some of those "cookies?"

[+pboland]

I can see what discussions here will be like when he argues every nit pick detail with a stack of references, emails, posts, facebook pages, and all, just to prove how right he is. Sorry, not interested.

Mr. Rubin, I still say welcome to the forum, However I never though I'd see the day when facts (i.e. reference, emails, posts and facebook pages) would be considered bad thing.

 

BTW, I already said thanks to Owen, Nolan, and Ted. I would also like to thank Marty and Curt as well. I have learned a lot in this thread. I hope Owen, Nolan, and Ted will keep posting. I also hope Curt and Marty keep educating me with the facts because in the end what matter to me is truth and fact. Thanks to all involved.

[CGQuarterly]

What a wasted opportunity.

 

This.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Jibbajaba

[roberto]

All we want is to document the correct history, and not one that was either fabricated or taken from unreliable memories.

 

Sadly, I'm afraid that's pure utopia: too many things were left undocumented, and the "documented" facts may still leave out important parts of the story, as some previous posts pointed out.

I guess that the memories of the people involved are still the best source and when these disagree between each other, we should just propose the views from both sides.

 

BTW, I'm very curious about actual sales figures for the early consoles (I asked this in one of the first OT forays of this huge thread but my question was left unanswered).

It has been said many times here that the Odyssey sold more than 300,000 units. I remember reading several contrasting statements about this in the available literature and it seems that, while about 340,000 units were produced/shipped, only about 100,000 were actually sold (besides 20,000 light guns) due to the high price tag and poor Magnavox marketing.

Since there was no NPD at the time, how can we know the "truth"?

The same holds for the Atari VCS/2600: I read estimates as high as 30million but that seems highly unlikely to me since records tend to affirm there were less than 10m units around when PacMan came out (March 1982, right?) and then, after the 83 crash, it seems difficult to me that the 2600 could sell another 15m units even with the restyled 2600jr. being sold for $50 in emerging markets like Brazil and Asia...

 

Any insight by the experts here would make me happy and go grab a choc chip cookie! Thanks!

Edited April 30, 2010 by roberto

[Retro Rogue]

BTW, I'm very curious about actual sales figures for the early consoles (I asked this in one of the first OT forays of this huge thread but my question was left unanswered).

 

It is kind of a topic for another thread, but I'll try and answer in breif.

 

It has been said many times here that the Odyssey sold more than 300,000 units. I remember reading several contrasting statements about this in the available literature and it seems that, while about 340,000 units were produced/shipped, only about 100,000 were actually sold (besides 20,000 light guns) due to the high price tag and poor Magnavox marketing. Since there was no NPD at the time, how can we know the "truth"?

 

Ralph has all that material (internal Magnavox and Sanders documents discussing and tracking sales, etc., since remember Sanders licensed the technology to Magnavox and had to be kept abreast of those things) and even published some of it in his book. So the information is there. They sold for $100 initially and then down to $79 a little over half a year later. Sales were good enough to produce 150,000 units in 1974 alone (i.e. you don't up production for something that's not selling), with production finally halted in '75 350,000 units when they chose to launch the Odyssey 100/200 in the Fall of '75. Coverage of the unit in the press that I've dug up was very favorable at the time as well. We might have sales documents in one of the many boxes of documents we took possession of as well, just a point of digging through it and finding it. I know we have documents with listings of licensing/royalty payments to Magnavox from every console/arcade manufacturer that was doing them at the time.