Atari 7800 Forum Description

[+FujiSkunk]

I swear, it's like nobody reads the posts here. The 7800 was never a response to the NES. Atari Corp. was not trying to play catch-up.

 

All right, I stand corrected on what motivated Atari Corp. to bring the 7800 to market. Mea culpa.

 

However...

 

While I'll probably get accused again of posting just for the sake of arguing, I still say there is original intent, and final execution. Despite its initial development before Nintendo's entrance into the American market, the overwhelming majority of the gaming public did not see a 7800 until after the NES juggernaut had been established. Regardless of how it started, the 7800 became Atari's answer to the NES, and so it is not inaccurate to call it that.

 

The Saturn was meant to be Sega's trailblazing into high-end console gaming. Instead, it became their answer to the PlayStation.

[Allpaul]

Well, it looks like we finally have a new forum description:

 

The Atari 7800 came out after the 5200. It has a black, plastic case.

 

This is too funny!

[Tempest]

[*]The Atari 7800 was not the answer to the NES.

I disagree.

 

While this may not have been true when it was originally being developed back in 83/84 (I think they were targeting the Colecovision at the time), when it was finally released in 86 (a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book) it was very much Atari's answer to the NES (one might argue the SMS as well, but that wasn't released until several months after the 7800 IIRC).

 

Tempest

[DracIsBack]

While this may not have been true when it was originally being developed back in 83/84 (I think they were targeting the Colecovision at the time), when it was finally released in 86 (a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book) it was very much Atari's answer to the NES (one might argue the SMS as well, but that wasn't released until several months after the 7800 IIRC).

 

Didn't they both hit 'mass market' about the same time? The NES also had a 'test market' before the 7800 was re-released. I could have sworn that Marty wrote that?

 

Regardless of semantics, as long as it doesn't perpetuate the myth that Atari dusted off "2 year old technology" to compete with the "brand new NES" (which was already out for two years as Famicom before being tested in USA), I'm fine with the original description.

[jaybird3rd]

Let me propose another revision of the new description:

 

The Atari 7800 ProSystem is a contemporary of the Nintendo Entertainment System and the Sega Master System. Based on extensive feedback from Atari customers, the 7800 features a streamlined design, backward compatibility with the 2600, a powerful graphics processor, and simplified controllers.

 

That places it within its proper time period (as a third-generation console) without going into which console was released first or what was done in response to what. It also removes any reference to the 5200.

 

I also changed it to the present tense. With the upcoming Expansion Module and active homebrew support, I like to think that the 7800 is still alive.

[The_Laird]

I think that description is just about perfect!!!

[Underball]

[*]The Atari 7800 was not the answer to the NES.

I disagree.

 

While this may not have been true when it was originally being developed back in 83/84 (I think they were targeting the Colecovision at the time), when it was finally released in 86 (a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book) it was very much Atari's answer to the NES (one might argue the SMS as well, but that wasn't released until several months after the 7800 IIRC).

 

Tempest

 

I always took it more as a half-assed answer to Tramiel hedging his bets on going Home Computer only with the Atari brand, rather than trying to compete with the NES. The Atari Home Computer line wasn't selling like he guessed it would. Video Games still were, despite the crash of '84. So they pulled the 7800 out of the storage room to try and make up for lost revenue, assuming the Atari name alone would defeat Nintendo and Sega.

 

They werent' so much trying to answer the NES or SMS, so much as they were trying to stave off complete financial disaster.

[Classic Pac]

If your talking about the one you see on the main forum page. Frankly it's way!!!!!!!!!!!! tooo short. Okay blame Atari for the games but remember fans here discovered that the 7800 can do polygons. Or can you explain away those amazing 3D like graphics of F18 Hornet. I would include there weren't many games made to exploit the 7800s true gaming power. It had licensing issues.

[Rex Dart]

The Saturn was meant to be Sega's trailblazing into high-end console gaming. Instead, it became their answer to the PlayStation.

 

 

I agree that there's a difference between intent and actuality in terms of the 7800's release.... but I don't follow this. How do you figure?

[+remowilliams]

Well, it looks like we finally have a new forum description:

 

The Atari 7800 came out after the 5200. It has a black, plastic case.

 

 

That's hilarious!

[+FujiSkunk]

The Saturn was meant to be Sega's trailblazing into high-end console gaming. Instead, it became their answer to the PlayStation.

 

 

I agree that there's a difference between intent and actuality in terms of the 7800's release.... but I don't follow this. How do you figure?

 

Sega initially developed the Sega Saturn as a 3DO-killer and a high-end (read: expensive) gaming platform compared to the more moderate upgrade of the 32X. But then Sony entered the market. Sega rushed the Saturn's roll-out as a result, particularly in the U.S., and also lowered the launch price for the States (though the $399 sticker was still higher than the PlayStation's). Those actions and their results are why the Saturn is now known mostly as Sega's "answer" to the PlayStation.

Edited August 6, 2010 by FujiSkunk

[carmel_andrews]

what was the 7800 again

 

Perhaps GCC would have been better making (as in manufacturing) and marketing it themselves....probably would have done a better job of things then tramiels cronies/clowns

[The_Laird]

I very much doubt that, they didn't even have any money and never would have been able to release any of the arcade ports.

[Retro Rogue]

though the fact is that the 7800 was released in 1984 to a limited market. Uncle Jack came along and killed that though. Thus, the late release in 1986.

 

Nope, completely infactual and I'll refer you to my recent article in Retro Gamer on the 7800 (Laura Croft cover). The 7800 was not killed by Jack, the split created a problem with who owed GCC for the development on Maria and the launch games as they had not been paid yet. The contract was through Warner, not Atari Inc., and Warner was insisting that if Jack wanted the console he needed to pay for it. Jack didn't want to and felt it should have come with the deal and Warner should have paid for it originally. Hence the infamous desktop hapening. The situation was cleared up on the Maria development by Spring of '85 when Jack caved in and sent the check and then started negotiating on the launch titles, which was done by August. At that time he started wooing Mike Katz to come over and start up the electronic entertainment division, which included relaunching the 7800 and the 2600 cost reduce version. Mike was on board by early November.

 

 

And while the 7800 was not initially developed as a competitor for the NES, the NES is what drove Tramiel and company to release the 7800 after shelving it.

 

Nope, completely wrong. I talked to Mike Katz directly, and as mentioned above Jack was already looking at releasing the 7800 long before the New York NES market test, hence his wooing Mike to get the job done of bringing it to market and get more titles for the launch. It's convenience of timing without knowing the full story that people assumed that all this time.

 

 

Yeeeeaaaahhh, but that's really not an answer... I'd say it was more of a knee-jerk reaction. Only too late did they convince Jack that they needed a console in the market to compete with Atari.

 

Nope. See above. It was not a reaction to the NES, nor did people need to convince him.

 

Before Tramiel came along everything at Atari had been put on hold except for the 7800.

 

Where on earth did you get that idea? Completely unfactual, there was a full plethora of items in consoles and computers being worked on up to when the split occured, including the next gen 68000 Amiga based console they planned on putting out there by Christmas.

 

That's how important it was to the company. When Jack bought the home division he literally halted the production, shelved the unit and said computers were the way and the light. It was the beginning of the end for Atari.

 

Again, see above. Didn't happen that way, people took a single happening that some recounted and totally ran with it all this time.

[Retro Rogue]

While this may not have been true when it was originally being developed back in 83/84 (I think they were targeting the Colecovision at the time), when it was finally released in 86 (a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book) it was very much Atari's answer to the NES (one might argue the SMS as well, but that wasn't released until several months after the 7800 IIRC).

 

Didn't they both hit 'mass market' about the same time? The NES also had a 'test market' before the 7800 was re-released. I could have sworn that Marty wrote that?

 

Regardless of semantics, as long as it doesn't perpetuate the myth that Atari dusted off "2 year old technology" to compete with the "brand new NES" (which was already out for two years as Famicom before being tested in USA), I'm fine with the original description.

 

Yes, Matt's mistaken unless he's talking about how it played out on the market rather then the intent of its release. Jack started up the 7800 program again *before* the NES test marketing that Christmas season. The back stock of 7800's and original launch titles started being distributed nationally around the same time that Nintendo was doing it's LA test market in early '86, selling out at locations in the country by that June. All three consoles went on the with "official" national launches at the same time (that September I believe).

[Retro Rogue]

... until after the NES juggernaut had been established.

 

The NES did not become a "jauggernaut" until after the National launch and Christmas season, and the 7800 was clearly nationaly available at the same time as the NES started their national launch. So I'm not sure about the logic of that statement. As stated previously, at the time of the June '86 CES all the press were treating them as equals (including the unreleased SMS) and their collective upcoming national launches as a signal of a possible reviving of the consumer video game market. In fact the NES was getting negative reviews in light of Atari Corp.'s offering by some reviewers. Unless you're taking the slow spreading out of sales to Chicago and a few other cities by Nintendo that Spring to be a pseudo-national launch. But Atari Corp. was doing the same thing as well with their 7800 backstock during that time.

 

Once the Christmas '86 sales season was over though, the NES came out as the clear winner and only increased their lead distance in '87.

 

So much so that by '88 Sega was looking to pull the Master System and team up with Atari Corp. on a US release of their upcoming Megadrive. To bad that fell through.

[Tempest]

I thought the NES got test marketed in the US in 85, not 86. At leas that's what I seem to remember.

 

Tempest

[Retro Rogue]

I thought the NES got test marketed in the US in 85, not 86. At leas that's what I seem to remember.

 

Tempest

 

It had a limited test market in the New York area in Christmas '85, which did not go well. The reports on the test marketing from January '86 CES stated retailers in NY considered it a failure. Likewise, that's not a mass marketing, that did not occur until the national launch in the second half of '86 as stated. As you stated, which I certainly agree with, "a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book".

Edited August 8, 2010 by wgungfu

[Madaracs]

I thought the NES got test marketed in the US in 85, not 86. At leas that's what I seem to remember.

 

Tempest

 

It had a limited test market in the New York area in Christmas '85, which did not go well. The reports on the test marketing from January '86 CES stated retailers in NY considered it a failure. Likewise, that's not a mass marketing, that did not occur until the national launch in the second half of '86 as stated. As you stated, which I certainly agree with, "a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book".

 

Think you might have misread his question...

[ApolloBoy]

I thought the NES got test marketed in the US in 85, not 86. At leas that's what I seem to remember.

 

Tempest

 

It had a limited test market in the New York area in Christmas '85, which did not go well. The reports on the test marketing from January '86 CES stated retailers in NY considered it a failure. Likewise, that's not a mass marketing, that did not occur until the national launch in the second half of '86 as stated. As you stated, which I certainly agree with, "a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book".

Hey Marty, do you know what games were released with the NES during the first test market?

[jaybird3rd]

Hey Marty, do you know what games were released with the NES during the first test market?

This is getting a little off-topic, but according to Steven Kent's book (via Wikipedia), the seventeen titles released for the New York City test were:

 

10-Yard Fight

Baseball

Clu Clu Land

Donkey Kong Jr. Math

Duck Hunt

Excitebike

Golf

Gyromite

Hogan’s Alley

Ice Climber

Kung Fu

Mach Rider

Pinball

Stack-Up

Tennis

Wild Gunman

Wrecking Crew

 

Now, about that forum description ...

[Madaracs]

Hey Marty, do you know what games were released with the NES during the first test market?

This is getting a little off-topic, but according to Steven Kent's book (via Wikipedia), the seventeen titles released for the New York City test were:

 

10-Yard Fight

Baseball

Clu Clu Land

Donkey Kong Jr. Math

Duck Hunt

Excitebike

Golf

Gyromite

Hogan’s Alley

Ice Climber

Kung Fu

Mach Rider

Pinball

Stack-Up

Tennis

Wild Gunman

Wrecking Crew

 

Now, about that forum description ...

 

This topic has really been beaten to death. A couple of times. It's been fun having everyone pipe in about the facts and to get some clarification--and the majority of the voters agree a change is in order--but I didn't mean to create any ill will amongst the AA gang. It was just a suggestion and I guess I didn't intend to cause a ruckus.

 

If a moderator feels like it, I'd suggest buttoning up this thread and letting the dead horse lay.

[jaybird3rd]

This topic has really been beaten to death. A couple of times. It's been fun having everyone pipe in about the facts and to get some clarification--and the majority of the voters agree a change is in order--but I didn't mean to create any ill will amongst the AA gang. It was just a suggestion and I guess I didn't intend to cause a ruckus.

 

If a moderator feels like it, I'd suggest buttoning up this thread and letting the dead horse lay.

You didn't cause any trouble. I actually think it's a good idea to go back and refresh the descriptions, trivia, etc. every once in a while, especially when new research reveals facts that may not have been available when they were written.

 

Hopefully the forum description will be replaced with one of the new ones suggested; I can see the humor in the current one, but I wouldn't want to be stuck with it permanently.

[Retro Rogue]

I thought the NES got test marketed in the US in 85, not 86. At leas that's what I seem to remember.

 

Tempest

 

It had a limited test market in the New York area in Christmas '85, which did not go well. The reports on the test marketing from January '86 CES stated retailers in NY considered it a failure. Likewise, that's not a mass marketing, that did not occur until the national launch in the second half of '86 as stated. As you stated, which I certainly agree with, "a limited test run doesn't count as being released in my book".

 

Think you might have misread his question...

 

 

Madaracs - Good catch.

 

Matt - yes, the NES was test marketed in '86 as well. After the '85 New York one there was an Feb '86 Los Angeles testing, and then a slow transition to testing in a few other major cities (Chicago, etc.) leading up to the national launch.

[Retro Rogue]

Hey Marty, do you know what games were released with the NES during the first test market?

This is getting a little off-topic, but according to Steven Kent's book (via Wikipedia), the seventeen titles released for the New York City test were:

 

10-Yard Fight

Baseball

Clu Clu Land

Donkey Kong Jr. Math

Duck Hunt

Excitebike

Golf

Gyromite

Hogan’s Alley

Ice Climber

Kung Fu

Mach Rider

Pinball

Stack-Up

Tennis

Wild Gunman

Wrecking Crew

 

 

 

Yes, unlike what the current Nintendo reports, SMB was *not* part of the original NY "launch" in Oct '85. It joined later during the test. As Arakawa and Lincoln reported to Kent (and I verified they are who he direct got the info from), the American SMB wasn't ready in time for the October launch. The copyright database also verified this, showing even the instruction booklet wasn't done until 10/31/85.