emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I've kept it 40 byte wide when recreating the picture but if you shift the picture left by 24 pixels, it can be done 32 bytes wide leaving the max number of cycles available for further dli changes without the need for any other methods to achieve the final image. My version is 48 Bytes wide. Every colour is where it belongs to. No Midline changes used.... can be done with 24 DLIs.... You see the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 My version is 48 Bytes wide. Every colour is where it belongs to. No Midline changes used.... can be done with 24 DLIs.... You see the difference? other than you using 48 bytes wide (?) I don't see the difference, it's the same way I have done it too without mid changes just dlis. Are you saying you've not used any PM's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 My version is 48 Bytes wide. Every colour is where it belongs to. No Midline changes used.... can be done with 24 DLIs.... You see the difference? other than you using 48 bytes wide (?) I don't see the difference, it's the same way I have done it too without mid changes just dlis. Are you saying you've not used any PM's? ? You really don't see the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 You really don't see the difference?I'm not following exactly what you are asking, are you refering to a difference of methods or the physical changes you've made to the picture in the grab you posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Guess why 3 of the marks are at the same scanlines.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) Guess why 3 of the marks are at the same scanlines....They're the sections of the picture remaining to be sorted. A wrong decision made choosing which would be pf and pm when I did the original quick conversion. I don't always get it right first time They are the few pixels here and there left to sort out that I refered to. I posted it "as is" wip. It is an easy fix to finalise everything. Edited October 2, 2010 by Tezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 And now compare (now a direct G2F screenshot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Can you post your executable too Emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Can you post your executable too Emkay Not yet, perhaps later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Not yet, perhaps later.I figured as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Not yet, perhaps later.I figured as much. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ?It means that it's just dawned on me that you are pointing out all the discrepancies in the wip picture against your perfect solution which you're not able to post even though it's a "direct g2f screenshot". I wasn't aware you were turning it into a competition, I'm just converting the image because the original artist wondered what was possible on the A8. I thought you were just adding something sensible to the discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ... Tezz is right. You could do more stuff automatically, but there are to many constraints when trying to process complete pictures without user interaction. Here are some (for e.g. 2x1, 40 Bytes): ... Well I didn't mean to make it 100% automatic, where would fun be in that ? Just a little bit more then g2f is doing now... I'm waiting to see video 3 and 4 and then see if I got the principle behind g2f right or not My friend and I were discussing using genetic algorithms in some business application, but we also had idea how to use it for image conversion. It could be used to test thousands of PM/DLI/MID line change combinations and to tune them to choose the most similar one to the original image... Not a project for one weekend thou... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 @emkay: What does the STFU writing in your artwork actually mean? Don't know. I was just editing the colours and encountered weird pixels. As much as I am a bored by the "c64 vs A8" flames you kind of started... This answer was ACE!!! I am now quiet again and read this thread further. one thing, the G2F vids are cool. I had a peek into this program some weeks ago, but I couldn't do much with it. I am coder, really. Ah, BTW, the dude who makes the gfx (with G2F) for the game is C64 based guy. You see, the war is over. We work together in this century PS: Emkay, if we meet at the ABBUC-JHV we get along perfectly, I can assure you that. But in this forum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Well I didn't mean to make it 100% automatic, where would fun be in that ? Just a little bit more then g2f is doing now... I'm waiting to see video 3 and 4 and then see if I got the principle behind g2f right or not My friend and I were discussing using genetic algorithms in some business application, but we also had idea how to use it for image conversion. It could be used to test thousands of PM/DLI/MID line change combinations and to tune them to choose the most similar one to the original image... Not a project for one weekend thou... That would be very cool and an impressive acheivement to code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ?It means that it's just dawned on me that you are pointing out all the discrepancies in the wip picture against your perfect solution which you're not able to post even though it's a "direct g2f screenshot". I wasn't aware you were turning it into a competition, I'm just converting the image because the original artist wondered what was possible on the A8. I thought you were just adding something sensible to the discussion. The "sensible in the discussion" was already done by using G2F again. Before posting my XEX, I want to see some more advanced/effective picture from a guy that thinks, he knows all about the A8. And, really ... I really cannot read this excusion "I just have done it" anymore..... In fact, you have done the picture in the sum of what you can do with Graph2fnt. And that's the point. Someone wants to see what the A8 can do. And all we have is artists that don't recognize false graphics ,using a tool that is not even capable of using all A8 features. In fact: WE CANNOT SHOW WHAT THE A8 CAN DO. This is nothing personal. I'm not a profession aswell.... neither in graphics nor in music making.... It's only the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ...That would be very cool and an impressive acheivement to code. Then, that is something I could strive for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) The "sensible in the discussion" was already done by using G2F again. Before posting my XEX, I want to see some more advanced/effective picture from a guy that thinks, he knows all about the A8. And, really ... I really cannot read this excusion "I just have done it" anymore..... In fact, you have done the picture in the sum of what you can do with Graph2fnt. And that's the point. Someone wants to see what the A8 can do. And all we have is artists that don't recognize false graphics ,using a tool that is not even capable of using all A8 features. In fact: WE CANNOT SHOW WHAT THE A8 CAN DO. This is nothing personal. I'm not a profession aswell.... neither in graphics nor in music making.... It's only the truth. lol wow, the purpose in saying that it is simple to do and "here it is" was to demonstrate that it is easy to use the tool and to answer the question yes it is possible. It was not to show anybodys technical prowess! what's wrong with you Emkay, it's just a fun hobby. I can only assume you've taken it the wrong way. Edited October 2, 2010 by Tezz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 lol wow, the purpose in saying that it is simple to do and "here it is" was to demonstrate that it is easy to use the tool and to answer the question yes it is possible. It was not to show anybodys technical prowess! what's wrong with you Emkay, it's just a fun hobby. I can only assume you've taken it the wrong way. Well, hobby, yes. But for common C64 guys it is a big amusement to see this halfbaked stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmel_andrews Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 24 DLI's....how much processing time would that take out of the Poor A8 Just one question though...Why is there so little execution time/code for a given DLI....would'nt it have been better for Atari to have given the gfx hardware some of it's own memory and allow programmers to use some parts of that memory to code DLI's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) 24 DLI's....how much processing time would that take out of the Poor A8 Just one question though...Why is there so little execution time/code for a given DLI....would'nt it have been better for Atari to have given the gfx hardware some of it's own memory and allow programmers to use some parts of that memory to code DLI's Ask Sheddy. His Space Harrier uses more than 40DLIs. Seems Space Harrier doesn't get any slowdowns by it. And the digi sounds also sound very good. The A8 was the 1st of Jay Miner's hardware achievement on this. The Amiga has the copper chip. Reading its own memory and executes "DLIs" in parallel to the main CPU which can do other calculations ... Edited October 2, 2010 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) In fact: WE CANNOT SHOW WHAT THE A8 CAN DO. Who cares (now)? 6502 maniacs were inhabitants of different cities of a sunk island, now disputing which city is nicer? My city will always be the nicest, regardless of what others saying - and I think, I have good reasons to think so. The 'golden years' with such pearls like Ballblazer, ROF, K.Rift, Seven Cities of Gold etc. had no access to such tools like G2F or RMT. So I think we are starting with better conditions compared to those years. Creativity is the key - not tools... And yes, the 'almighty' C64 colour density is relative. See attached image (uses very little CPU). There is no really need to prove anything... noname.g2f.zip Edited October 2, 2010 by Irgendwer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 24 DLI's....how much processing time would that take out of the Poor A8 Just one question though...Why is there so little execution time/code for a given DLI....would'nt it have been better for Atari to have given the gfx hardware some of it's own memory and allow programmers to use some parts of that memory to code DLI's Memory was expensive back then and consider that the Atari 400/800 were upgrade from Atari 2600 with 128 bytes of RAM. It was a major achievement and foresight to get that sort of machine in the late 1970s. And 24 DLIs is nothing given that you can do 240 DLIs per screen (10X). Even the extra color changes on C64 come at cost of 40+ extra DMA cycles per row so nothing is free for either machine. I prefer having the ability to choose where you want to apply the processing power rather than a fixed scenario. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Creativity is the key - not tools... Let's see what a sculptor can do with a huge rock and no hammer around And yes, the 'almighty' C64 colour density is relative. See attached image (uses very little CPU). There is no really need to prove anything... Yeah. The Atari can show 128 independent colours in 128 cohesive pixels. I posted something similar a year ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaGtGruff Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 See attached image (uses very little CPU). Not trying to sound dense (because that's a given!), but what are we looking at here? Thanks! Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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