Digital Joysticks provide better control than Analog Joysticks

[Divya16]

And then there's the issue of pseudo digital controls using a simple resistor DAC.

It would be very interesting to rig up a CX40 like that for the 5200 and do a blind test comparing the real-world performance playing A8 and 5200 versions of the same games -of the 5200 games that use the same 4 or 8 direction control schemes with no other odd modifications like Frogger's button press -Pac Man and Ms Pac Man would be good cases. (polling pots is slower for sure, but the question is if the user actually notices or not)

Technically speaking such a controller would have been significantly cheaper to make than full pot based analog control and thus it's very odd that no such controller was offered for the 5200. (be it 1st or 3d party)

 

Frogger already has digital controls-- you can use the keypad on the A5200. And the digital adapters do work better for those games. And it's not necessarily a blind test if you do the experiment as a controlled experiment.

Yes, but the keypad is far from ideal, especially the 5200 keypad (an actual keybard would be fine for the most part -always depends on implementation/design though).

A wico keypad for A5200 is just like a normal keyboard. And you can also use touchpads, kids controller, etc. instead of A5200 stock controller keypad.

 

But by a blind test, I mean the people playing the game wouldn't know which was the 5200 version and which was the A8 version, a closed box set-up where they can't see the system being used.

When people play the HSC with various controllers for the A5200-- some being digital, they are trying their best to get the highest score and if you study some of those cases, you would already have the results for your proposed test.

 

It's suprising how some people can't see the clear logic that with the uncertainty in regions of analog joysticks, you are prone to make more mistakes in the game than if you had more certainty. No experiment needed to see this logic if you think about it and don't let the emotions get in the way. Yeah, Koolkitty89, we do know what modern systems are using but is it a NECESSITY. You yourself were entertaining some alternative digital methods. And I have seen so many so-called "analog" games done with digital controls- missile command, star wars, centipede, pole position, super breakout, etc. And some of those are paddle games (not even analog joystick games).

And some people just cant see the inferiority of limited states with certainty of FAR TOO FEW available values to work in the desired fashion. Again, 5200 missile command is far from ideal, but a good analog stick would always be better for that game than plain 8-way digital with proper programming. With paddle games, digital controls makes it take a huge hit compared to proper variable control though an analog joystick/thumbstick wouldn't be ideal either or a track ball for that matter. (an analog joystick would probably be better off treated as a mouse/track ball in the majority of such cases)

 

They added more states to digital controllers as well with buttons if you know about those sega 6-button controllers. Missile command works better with digital joystick than analog joystick. Not bringing paddles, trackballs, mice, etc. into this picture for clarity purposes. That's wrong that an analog joystick is like a mouse/trackball. A digital joystick can be used to move around the screen with just as much accuracy as the mouse/trackball. And mouse/trackball use same pins as digital joystick I think and no uncertainty of analogicity.

 

You can do almost any game with analog or digital control, but when properly catering to both mechanisms, some games will favor digital, and others will favor analog. (or variable with a wide range of states per axis, not necessarily resistance based analog)

 

Some games only take a minor hit when made digital, just as some digital optimized games only take a minor hit going to analog, but in other cases it can be unacceptable. (the vast majority of modern 3D games would take pretty big hits dropping to 8-way control -some bigger than others, more so if you removed all the analog axes -no triggers, neither analog stick, etc)

 

The precision is simply too low for some applications.

 

 

And that's all aside from poorly designed controllers and poorly designed controls programmed into the game.

 

For all those 3D games, the so-called "speed" factor is in addition to requiring the 9-state or 5-state directions and the latter suffer from inexactness for the analog joysticks. And the so-called "speed" myth has been implemented with digital joysticks AND the "speed" itself suffers from inexactness unless you rely on feedback for analog joysticks.

 

Pole Position example I mentioned also uses speed using digital joystick.

[+5-11under]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

[+Stephen]

MAJOR SNIPPAGE

They added more states to digital controllers as well with buttons if you know about those sega 6-button controllers. Missile command works better with digital joystick than analog joystick. Not bringing paddles, trackballs, mice, etc. into this picture for clarity purposes. That's wrong that an analog joystick is like a mouse/trackball. A digital joystick can be used to move around the screen with just as much accuracy as the mouse/trackball. And mouse/trackball use same pins as digital joystick I think and no uncertainty of analogicity.

I would still love to see someone draw a perfect circle or better yet, navigate my 2560*1024 desktop as accurately and as quickly or slowly as needed with a joystick as I do with the mouse.

[+poobah]

Hook up a modern analog joystick and see how good you do in an Atari 8-bit game like Hero.

 

I was the season 5 champion in the 8-bit high score club.

 

Controller used for most games?

Logitech dual-action with (drum roll) ANALOG sticks.

 

I just checked season 5 HSC games and you won 5 of them out of 25 and of those only two of them you are the record scorer-- pastfinder and Centipede. No Hero game (nor any others mentioned in this thread). I never heard of pastfinder but I bet you can do better at Centipede with a digital joystick. I think I should be able to top 104K although I can't mix your experience with certain games with my experience. There are some games you can get away with the flaws of the analog joystick because game is slow-paced or messing up a pixel or two here or there doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

 

Wow. just. wow.

 

If you dug just a tiny bit deeper, you'd see I didn't play the first 8 games, nor the last, so that's 6 (not 5) wins in 16 attempts

 

1st: 6 times

2nd: 7 times

3rd: 1 time

4th: 2 times

 

So being champion, and finishing 1st or 2nd in 13 of 16 games is not an indicative metric?

Surely, being so massively handicapped with a joystick where I have zero control should have prevented any wins.

 

(oh btw, this stuff here is called "data". it is used to evaluate an experiment and possibly draw conclusions)

 

I think you misunderstood the ZERO CONTROL stuff. At least everyone knows that ledzep did although it was specifically answered for him already.

 

Funny, the term ZERO CONTROL seems self evident.

But please, use whatever definition you like...

 

Since "digital joysticks provide better control than analog joysticks" either:

a) I would have to be some kind of video game playing god to generate the level of performance in HSC, overcoming the analog handicap

-or-

b) the digital joystick assumption is wrong.

[atariksi]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

MAJOR SNIPPAGE

They added more states to digital controllers as well with buttons if you know about those sega 6-button controllers. Missile command works better with digital joystick than analog joystick. Not bringing paddles, trackballs, mice, etc. into this picture for clarity purposes. That's wrong that an analog joystick is like a mouse/trackball. A digital joystick can be used to move around the screen with just as much accuracy as the mouse/trackball. And mouse/trackball use same pins as digital joystick I think and no uncertainty of analogicity.

I would still love to see someone draw a perfect circle or better yet, navigate my 2560*1024 desktop as accurately and as quickly or slowly as needed with a joystick as I do with the mouse.

 

Circles are discussed on page 6; post #144 (and 156?).

 

I'm trying to give references as my internet connection is too slow right now to do major cut/pastes.

[jetset]

Hook up a modern analog joystick and see how good you do in an Atari 8-bit game like Hero.

 

I was the season 5 champion in the 8-bit high score club.

 

Controller used for most games?

Logitech dual-action with (drum roll) ANALOG sticks.

 

I just checked season 5 HSC games and you won 5 of them out of 25 and of those only two of them you are the record scorer-- pastfinder and Centipede. No Hero game (nor any others mentioned in this thread). I never heard of pastfinder but I bet you can do better at Centipede with a digital joystick. I think I should be able to top 104K although I can't mix your experience with certain games with my experience. There are some games you can get away with the flaws of the analog joystick because game is slow-paced or messing up a pixel or two here or there doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

 

Wow. just. wow.

 

If you dug just a tiny bit deeper, you'd see I didn't play the first 8 games, nor the last, so that's 6 (not 5) wins in 16 attempts

 

1st: 6 times

2nd: 7 times

3rd: 1 time

4th: 2 times

 

So being champion, and finishing 1st or 2nd in 13 of 16 games is not an indicative metric?

Surely, being so massively handicapped with a joystick where I have zero control should have prevented any wins.

 

(oh btw, this stuff here is called "data". it is used to evaluate an experiment and possibly draw conclusions)

 

I think you misunderstood the ZERO CONTROL stuff. At least everyone knows that ledzep did although it was specifically answered for him already.

 

Funny, the term ZERO CONTROL seems self evident.

But please, use whatever definition you like...

 

Since "digital joysticks provide better control than analog joysticks" either:

a) I would have to be some kind of video game playing god to generate the level of performance in HSC, overcoming the analog handicap

-or-

b) the digital joystick assumption is wrong.

 

 

 

Goes back to what I've always said. The 5200's digital sticks are only a problem if you aren't very good at videogames to begin with. If they are a problem, a little practice goes a long way.

 

Nothing personal poobah, I'm going with "B".

[+5-11under]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

Oi! Never mind most of the thread, and the fact I haven't read all of it. I've read enough of it, so let it go. It's mostly drivel on top of drivel anyway... and yes, I contributed to it.

 

Back on track... open up your mind to things that could be done with an analog joystick, fairly easily... add a restrictor to limit the movement, if the throw is too long... adjust the range, using potentiometers, so moving to the left or right a certain amount (of your choosing) activates the intended direction at exactly the desired angle. Set up the springiness so that the return to center is ideal. I've already proven this once, about 12 pages ago. Maybe you haven't read that part.

[Divya16]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

Oi! Never mind most of the thread, and the fact I haven't read all of it. I've read enough of it, so let it go. It's mostly drivel on top of drivel anyway... and yes, I contributed to it.

No, I just proved to you that what YOU wrote was crap or drivel LOGICALLY. It doesn't matter what you think, it's what is logically proven. I knew you blew it that's why I didn't bother answering you. You were just looking for another chance to mock everything since you are completely inept at understanding the proof.

 

Back on track... open up your mind to things that could be done with an analog joystick, fairly easily... add a restrictor to limit the movement, if the throw is too long... adjust the range, using potentiometers, so moving to the left or right a certain amount (of your choosing) activates the intended direction at exactly the desired angle. Set up the springiness so that the return to center is ideal. I've already proven this once, about 12 pages ago. Maybe you haven't read that part.

 

You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is no option. With an analog joystick, the inherent flaws and uncertainty remain. By the way, you didn't really address the points made in post #420 and you are narrow-minded to even read the refutations. Again, back to what you actually are: blind following the blind, or blind leading the blind.

[Divya16]

Hook up a modern analog joystick and see how good you do in an Atari 8-bit game like Hero.

 

I was the season 5 champion in the 8-bit high score club.

 

Controller used for most games?

Logitech dual-action with (drum roll) ANALOG sticks.

 

I just checked season 5 HSC games and you won 5 of them out of 25 and of those only two of them you are the record scorer-- pastfinder and Centipede. No Hero game (nor any others mentioned in this thread). I never heard of pastfinder but I bet you can do better at Centipede with a digital joystick. I think I should be able to top 104K although I can't mix your experience with certain games with my experience. There are some games you can get away with the flaws of the analog joystick because game is slow-paced or messing up a pixel or two here or there doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

 

Wow. just. wow.

 

If you dug just a tiny bit deeper, you'd see I didn't play the first 8 games, nor the last, so that's 6 (not 5) wins in 16 attempts

 

1st: 6 times

2nd: 7 times

3rd: 1 time

4th: 2 times

 

So being champion, and finishing 1st or 2nd in 13 of 16 games is not an indicative metric?

Surely, being so massively handicapped with a joystick where I have zero control should have prevented any wins.

 

(oh btw, this stuff here is called "data". it is used to evaluate an experiment and possibly draw conclusions)

 

I think you misunderstood the ZERO CONTROL stuff. At least everyone knows that ledzep did although it was specifically answered for him already.

 

Funny, the term ZERO CONTROL seems self evident.

But please, use whatever definition you like...

 

Since "digital joysticks provide better control than analog joysticks" either:

a) I would have to be some kind of video game playing god to generate the level of performance in HSC, overcoming the analog handicap

-or-

b) the digital joystick assumption is wrong.

 

 

 

Goes back to what I've always said. The 5200's digital sticks are only a problem if you aren't very good at videogames to begin with. If they are a problem, a little practice goes a long way.

 

Nothing personal poobah, I'm going with "B".

 

He's completely wrong and so are you. His logic doesn't even follow-- it's just his mental concoction. It's so OBVIOUS, it's incredible that you even fell for it. But then again, you blindly just vote analog because you are attached to the Atari 5200 so it's sort of expected. He has performed no controlled experiment. He didn't even play with a digital joystick. He didn't even play the games where there's a high failure rate for analog joysticks. He keep juggling the word metric which is MEANINGLESS if you have no controlled experiment. The amount of bias is incredible. Address the points. You have an opportunity now, there's Donkey Kong playing in HSC. Play with your analog joystick and digital joystick and see the difference. That's assuming you are not biased and know how to use both joysticks and haven't already dismissed the digital option with your narrow-mindedness or purposely screw up. Play a hundred games on each joystick trying your best and notice the failure at certain points with the analog one. You'll have some real data at least for one game.

[Divya16]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

Wrong. It wasn't a joke, it was self-contradictory item; also knows as "shooting oneself in the foot." You used that excuse so you get another chance. There's no joke in your mocking since you modified it in your next post. It's now clearly evident for anyone to see. It's you who need to relax as proven above.

 

Deceptive manipulative narrow-mindedness are words to describe your style.

[+5-11under]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

Oi! Never mind most of the thread, and the fact I haven't read all of it. I've read enough of it, so let it go. It's mostly drivel on top of drivel anyway... and yes, I contributed to it.

No, I just proved to you that what YOU wrote was crap or drivel LOGICALLY. It doesn't matter what you think, it's what is logically proven. I knew you blew it that's why I didn't bother answering you. You were just looking for another chance to mock everything since you are completely inept at understanding the proof.

 

Back on track... open up your mind to things that could be done with an analog joystick, fairly easily... add a restrictor to limit the movement, if the throw is too long... adjust the range, using potentiometers, so moving to the left or right a certain amount (of your choosing) activates the intended direction at exactly the desired angle. Set up the springiness so that the return to center is ideal. I've already proven this once, about 12 pages ago. Maybe you haven't read that part.

 

You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is no option. With an analog joystick, the inherent flaws and uncertainty remain. By the way, you didn't really address the points made in post #420 and you are narrow-minded to even read the refutations. Again, back to what you actually are: blind following the blind, or blind leading the blind.

 

Crap, I'm being tag-teamed now.

 

Your post is just more drivel. Logical drivel perhaps, but drivel nonetheless. What's all this talk about "doesn't matter what you think", "you blew it", and "completely inept". That's nonsense, and is not contributing to the discussion.

 

My solution removes uncertainty, and, using your language, removes the apparent "inherent flaws" you speak of. You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is an option. Why not?

[Divya16]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

Oi! Never mind most of the thread, and the fact I haven't read all of it. I've read enough of it, so let it go. It's mostly drivel on top of drivel anyway... and yes, I contributed to it.

No, I just proved to you that what YOU wrote was crap or drivel LOGICALLY. It doesn't matter what you think, it's what is logically proven. I knew you blew it that's why I didn't bother answering you. You were just looking for another chance to mock everything since you are completely inept at understanding the proof.

 

Back on track... open up your mind to things that could be done with an analog joystick, fairly easily... add a restrictor to limit the movement, if the throw is too long... adjust the range, using potentiometers, so moving to the left or right a certain amount (of your choosing) activates the intended direction at exactly the desired angle. Set up the springiness so that the return to center is ideal. I've already proven this once, about 12 pages ago. Maybe you haven't read that part.

 

You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is no option. With an analog joystick, the inherent flaws and uncertainty remain. By the way, you didn't really address the points made in post #420 and you are narrow-minded to even read the refutations. Again, back to what you actually are: blind following the blind, or blind leading the blind.

 

Crap, I'm being tag-teamed now.

 

Your post is just more drivel. Logical drivel perhaps, but drivel nonetheless. What's all this talk about "doesn't matter what you think", "you blew it", and "completely inept". That's nonsense, and is not contributing to the discussion.

It sure does. You write drivel while others experiment and prove things. There's a BIG difference there. And just claiming something is drivel doesn't make it so. Maybe in your imaginary world where you can call things drivel without even reading them. You have no qualifcation to judge things you no nothing about. QED.

 

My solution removes uncertainty, and, using your language, removes the apparent "inherent flaws" you speak of. You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is an option. Why not?

 

Get to the facts. Post a schematic of the hardware modifications that give you exactly what a digital joystick does and we'll see if it even qualifies as an analog joystick.

[+5-11under]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

Wrong. It wasn't a joke, it was self-contradictory item; also knows as "shooting oneself in the foot." You used that excuse so you get another chance. There's no joke in your mocking since you modified it in your next post. It's now clearly evident for anyone to see. It's you who need to relax as proven above.

 

Deceptive manipulative narrow-mindedness are words to describe your style.

Wow. Deceptive, manipulative, and narrow-minded, eh? No, just a bit of fun, although perhaps intended towards you. Apologies if I'm offending you.

Jokes aren't much fun if you need to explain them, but note the sarcasm in the first line, and the "cut-off" sentence in the second line. It was supposed to give you or perhaps just others a chuckle, but apparently everything needs to be very serious.

[Divya16]

Oh, I don't see you being tag-teamed although that wouldn't matter either in a forum. Everyone is free to reply and all you got was a reference for your question.

[RevEng]

Jokes aren't much fun if you need to explain them, but note the sarcasm in the first line, and the "cut-off" sentence in the second line. It was supposed to give you or perhaps just others a chuckle, but apparently everything needs to be very serious.

Dammit man, what do you think this is, some kind of social forum? This is a WAR!!!

[+5-11under]

I feel so bad now that I haven't read every post in this thread.

I suggest that anyone who hasn't read every word of this thread refrain from pos

 

Given your previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick, people are better off not following your advice blindly.

 

Taking it logically, you are advising people to refrain from reading something that you admit you yourself haven't read. You fit in perfectly with those blind leading the blind. Your advice is also self-contradictory which you would have realized if you weren't so emotional. If thread is just crap, then it follows that your post is also which is part of this thread. Since you are opposed to others posts who don't think it's crap, it follows that its only your stuff that's crap since both P & -P cannot be true simultaneously in this case.

 

First of all it was a joke. Relax.

 

What do you mean my previous wrong information about digital joystick being implementable with an analog joystick? Tell me why that is not possible, in theory. Seriously.

 

I guess you read a lot less of the thread than I thought. That's been disproven almost throughout the thread. As recently as post #420 and its references as a start.

 

Oi! Never mind most of the thread, and the fact I haven't read all of it. I've read enough of it, so let it go. It's mostly drivel on top of drivel anyway... and yes, I contributed to it.

No, I just proved to you that what YOU wrote was crap or drivel LOGICALLY. It doesn't matter what you think, it's what is logically proven. I knew you blew it that's why I didn't bother answering you. You were just looking for another chance to mock everything since you are completely inept at understanding the proof.

 

Back on track... open up your mind to things that could be done with an analog joystick, fairly easily... add a restrictor to limit the movement, if the throw is too long... adjust the range, using potentiometers, so moving to the left or right a certain amount (of your choosing) activates the intended direction at exactly the desired angle. Set up the springiness so that the return to center is ideal. I've already proven this once, about 12 pages ago. Maybe you haven't read that part.

 

You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is no option. With an analog joystick, the inherent flaws and uncertainty remain. By the way, you didn't really address the points made in post #420 and you are narrow-minded to even read the refutations. Again, back to what you actually are: blind following the blind, or blind leading the blind.

 

Crap, I'm being tag-teamed now.

 

Your post is just more drivel. Logical drivel perhaps, but drivel nonetheless. What's all this talk about "doesn't matter what you think", "you blew it", and "completely inept". That's nonsense, and is not contributing to the discussion.

It sure does. You write drivel while others experiment and prove things. There's a BIG difference there. And just claiming something is drivel doesn't make it so. Maybe in your imaginary world where you can call things drivel without even reading them. You have no qualifcation to judge things you no nothing about. QED.

 

My solution removes uncertainty, and, using your language, removes the apparent "inherent flaws" you speak of. You should open up your mind that changing the hardware of the joystick is an option. Why not?

 

Get to the facts. Post a schematic of the hardware modifications that give you exactly what a digital joystick does and we'll see if it even qualifies as an analog joystick.

Slow down with the "you know nothing about" and that silly "QED". I understand the hardware and the software involved here. We're both piling the drivel.

 

I just told you some of what is required or could be useful: restrictor to limit movement, potentiometers on both ends of the existing potentiometer(s) to affect the center point, potentiometers in parallel with both sides of the center tap to the ends to adjust the range, if necessary. It's still an analog joystick, but feels and reacts like a digital joystick. Think about what you have in a digital joystick, when moving right, for instance. Depending on the joystick, there's a certain amount of looseness in the center. You move to the right, and at a certain point, the switch makes contact. You may be able to move a bit further to the right, but at some point, you won't be able to move the joystick any further. There will be other effects during this travel, such as some level of springiness, which wants to center the joystick. You might also feel or hear the click of the switch. I don't think I'm missing too much of significance here, but I'm sure you'll find something. Anyway, these items are not terribly difficult to mimic in an analog joystick. I agree that most analog joysticks do nothing like this, but it is possible, and quite feasible. Feeling or hearing the click of the switch may be a bit more difficult, but I think the restriction in movement is likely good enough. I don't usually pay attention to this; I just slam the joystick to the end of the travel.

[+5-11under]

Jokes aren't much fun if you need to explain them, but note the sarcasm in the first line, and the "cut-off" sentence in the second line. It was supposed to give you or perhaps just others a chuckle, but apparently everything needs to be very serious.

Dammit man, what do you think this is, some kind of social forum? This is a WAR!!!

Nice, that made me laugh. Hey, aren't you from the "peace-keeping nation" from the north. Oh well, I guess that adage is from past history.

[RevEng]

Nice, that made me laugh. Hey, aren't you from the "peace-keeping nation" from the north. Oh well, I guess that adage is from past history.

Sadly, even the peace-keeping troops have given up on this thread.

 

But don't let me stop you from reasoned debate. I agree that analog controls can be made to provide similar control characteristics to digital ones, and will argue that they've evolved that way with more modern implementations. The analog thumbsticks on modern consoles have a much shorter throw distance before you hit that "slam to the side" hard-stop than their old-school analog joystick counterparts.

 

It's not quite the level of digital restriction that you're discussing, but enough that you can slam them like digital sticks when you want, but still have some finesse when it's required.

Edited November 23, 2010 by RevEng

[Divya16]

Nice, that made me laugh. Hey, aren't you from the "peace-keeping nation" from the north. Oh well, I guess that adage is from past history.

Sadly, even the peace-keeping troops have given up on this thread.

He keeps claiming it's drivel when there's so much evidence/logical stuff being presented which mostly he never read. He can only judge his remarks and someone he has disproven factually.

 

But don't let me stop you from reasoned debate. I agree that analog controls can be made to provide similar control characteristics to digital ones, and will argue that they've evolved that way with more modern implementations. The analog thumbsticks on modern consoles have a much shorter throw distance before you hit that "slam to the side" hard-stop than their old-school analog joystick counterparts.

 

It's not quite the level of digital restriction that you're discussing, but enough that you can slam them like digital sticks when you want, but still have some finesse when it's required.

 

Neither his hypothetical description nor modern improved analog joysticks address the uncertainties. Obviously, the older gameport ones don't.

[RevEng]

Neither his hypothetical description nor modern improved analog joysticks address the uncertainties. Obviously, the older gameport ones don't.

Actually, if you drop the anti-analog joystick bias you might see that his description does address the uncertainties.

 

When I treat a modern analog like a digital stick and stam it to the edge of the range, I'm 100% certain it's full throttle, just like a digital stick. There's no uncertainty there.

 

When I allow it to self center, I'm certain it's not engaged, just like the self-centering on a digital joystick.

 

So all of the control of a digital stick is present.

[jetset]

Hook up a modern analog joystick and see how good you do in an Atari 8-bit game like Hero.

 

I was the season 5 champion in the 8-bit high score club.

 

Controller used for most games?

Logitech dual-action with (drum roll) ANALOG sticks.

 

I just checked season 5 HSC games and you won 5 of them out of 25 and of those only two of them you are the record scorer-- pastfinder and Centipede. No Hero game (nor any others mentioned in this thread). I never heard of pastfinder but I bet you can do better at Centipede with a digital joystick. I think I should be able to top 104K although I can't mix your experience with certain games with my experience. There are some games you can get away with the flaws of the analog joystick because game is slow-paced or messing up a pixel or two here or there doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

 

Wow. just. wow.

 

If you dug just a tiny bit deeper, you'd see I didn't play the first 8 games, nor the last, so that's 6 (not 5) wins in 16 attempts

 

1st: 6 times

2nd: 7 times

3rd: 1 time

4th: 2 times

 

So being champion, and finishing 1st or 2nd in 13 of 16 games is not an indicative metric?

Surely, being so massively handicapped with a joystick where I have zero control should have prevented any wins.

 

(oh btw, this stuff here is called "data". it is used to evaluate an experiment and possibly draw conclusions)

 

I think you misunderstood the ZERO CONTROL stuff. At least everyone knows that ledzep did although it was specifically answered for him already.

 

Funny, the term ZERO CONTROL seems self evident.

But please, use whatever definition you like...

 

Since "digital joysticks provide better control than analog joysticks" either:

a) I would have to be some kind of video game playing god to generate the level of performance in HSC, overcoming the analog handicap

-or-

b) the digital joystick assumption is wrong.

 

 

 

Goes back to what I've always said. The 5200's digital sticks are only a problem if you aren't very good at videogames to begin with. If they are a problem, a little practice goes a long way.

 

Nothing personal poobah, I'm going with "B".

 

He's completely wrong and so are you. His logic doesn't even follow-- it's just his mental concoction. It's so OBVIOUS, it's incredible that you even fell for it. But then again, you blindly just vote analog because you are attached to the Atari 5200 so it's sort of expected. He has performed no controlled experiment. He didn't even play with a digital joystick. He didn't even play the games where there's a high failure rate for analog joysticks. He keep juggling the word metric which is MEANINGLESS if you have no controlled experiment. The amount of bias is incredible. Address the points. You have an opportunity now, there's Donkey Kong playing in HSC. Play with your analog joystick and digital joystick and see the difference. That's assuming you are not biased and know how to use both joysticks and haven't already dismissed the digital option with your narrow-mindedness or purposely screw up. Play a hundred games on each joystick trying your best and notice the failure at certain points with the analog one. You'll have some real data at least for one game.

 

No not really. It has nothing to do with bias. It has to do with gaming ability. If I have a bad game at golf, I don't blame the club, I blame myself for not playing well. The same goes for analog controllers. If you can't adapt to Pac-Man with analog controllers that's YOUR fault. Just as you need a bit of conditioning to play for long periods of time with digital sticks on games meant for analog control like Centipede and Missile Command, analog sticks take some practice.

Still, it's all opinion really. Neither side has proven their case, and the OP has yet to show his or come even remotely close.

 

Don't get your panties in such a bunch. It's ok if you can't play well with analog sticks. There's no shame in lacking the ability to do so.

[Divya16]

Hook up a modern analog joystick and see how good you do in an Atari 8-bit game like Hero.

 

I was the season 5 champion in the 8-bit high score club.

 

Controller used for most games?

Logitech dual-action with (drum roll) ANALOG sticks.

 

I just checked season 5 HSC games and you won 5 of them out of 25 and of those only two of them you are the record scorer-- pastfinder and Centipede. No Hero game (nor any others mentioned in this thread). I never heard of pastfinder but I bet you can do better at Centipede with a digital joystick. I think I should be able to top 104K although I can't mix your experience with certain games with my experience. There are some games you can get away with the flaws of the analog joystick because game is slow-paced or messing up a pixel or two here or there doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

 

Wow. just. wow.

 

If you dug just a tiny bit deeper, you'd see I didn't play the first 8 games, nor the last, so that's 6 (not 5) wins in 16 attempts

 

1st: 6 times

2nd: 7 times

3rd: 1 time

4th: 2 times

 

So being champion, and finishing 1st or 2nd in 13 of 16 games is not an indicative metric?

Surely, being so massively handicapped with a joystick where I have zero control should have prevented any wins.

 

(oh btw, this stuff here is called "data". it is used to evaluate an experiment and possibly draw conclusions)

 

I think you misunderstood the ZERO CONTROL stuff. At least everyone knows that ledzep did although it was specifically answered for him already.

 

Funny, the term ZERO CONTROL seems self evident.

But please, use whatever definition you like...

 

Since "digital joysticks provide better control than analog joysticks" either:

a) I would have to be some kind of video game playing god to generate the level of performance in HSC, overcoming the analog handicap

-or-

b) the digital joystick assumption is wrong.

 

 

 

Goes back to what I've always said. The 5200's digital sticks are only a problem if you aren't very good at videogames to begin with. If they are a problem, a little practice goes a long way.

 

Nothing personal poobah, I'm going with "B".

 

He's completely wrong and so are you. His logic doesn't even follow-- it's just his mental concoction. It's so OBVIOUS, it's incredible that you even fell for it. But then again, you blindly just vote analog because you are attached to the Atari 5200 so it's sort of expected. He has performed no controlled experiment. He didn't even play with a digital joystick. He didn't even play the games where there's a high failure rate for analog joysticks. He keep juggling the word metric which is MEANINGLESS if you have no controlled experiment. The amount of bias is incredible. Address the points. You have an opportunity now, there's Donkey Kong playing in HSC. Play with your analog joystick and digital joystick and see the difference. That's assuming you are not biased and know how to use both joysticks and haven't already dismissed the digital option with your narrow-mindedness or purposely screw up. Play a hundred games on each joystick trying your best and notice the failure at certain points with the analog one. You'll have some real data at least for one game.

 

No not really. It has nothing to do with bias. It has to do with gaming ability. If I have a bad game at golf, I don't blame the club, I blame myself for not playing well. The same goes for analog controllers. If you can't adapt to Pac-Man with analog controllers that's YOUR fault. Just as you need a bit of conditioning to play for long periods of time with digital sticks on games meant for analog control like Centipede and Missile Command, analog sticks take some practice.

Still, it's all opinion really. Neither side has proven their case, and the OP has yet to show his or come even remotely close.

 

Don't get your panties in such a bunch. It's ok if you can't play well with analog sticks. There's no shame in lacking the ability to do so.

 

I have played on both HSCes (A5200/A8) with analog joysticks, digital joysticks, and arrow keys. I also have tons of experience playing PC games which are almost 100% analog joystick-based. So it's not my lack of experience with the analog joysticks. It's true that some games lend themselves better with trackballs, paddles, or mice like super breakout or star wars or missile command but I don't see your point where they both are equal depending on your experience.

 

The case is proven when you see the apparent failures that are higher for games like Donkey Kong as I mentioned.

[Divya16]

Neither his hypothetical description nor modern improved analog joysticks address the uncertainties. Obviously, the older gameport ones don't.

Actually, if you drop the anti-analog joystick bias you might see that his description does address the uncertainties.

 

When I treat a modern analog like a digital stick and stam it to the edge of the range, I'm 100% certain it's full throttle, just like a digital stick. There's no uncertainty there.

 

When I allow it to self center, I'm certain it's not engaged, just like the self-centering on a digital joystick.

 

So all of the control of a digital stick is present.

 

Your looking at it after you get to the extremes or near center. If you read post #420, you would have noticed that there's values in between which do not exist for digital joysticks. You are assuming time to switch from center to a direction is zero which is false.

[RevEng]

Your looking at it after you get to the extremes or near center. If you read post #420, you would have noticed that there's values in between which do not exist for digital joysticks. You are assuming time to switch from center to a direction is zero which is false.

No such assumption.

 

I have the understanding that a digital stick also has a non-zero switch time due to the throw distance. Apparently you don't.

[Divya16]

Your looking at it after you get to the extremes or near center. If you read post #420, you would have noticed that there's values in between which do not exist for digital joysticks. You are assuming time to switch from center to a direction is zero which is false.

No such assumption.

 

I have the understanding that a digital stick also has a non-zero switch time due to the throw distance. Apparently you don't.

 

I know digital sticks also take time, but it doesn't produce the in-between values nor are its states unstable. And if you want to equate the time, you hardly have any certainty for in-between states which was the main reason for your analog joystick to begin with. For longer throw, analog joystick loses in uncertainty and time to switch. For short throw, you have hardly any use for inbetween-states and there's still samples you get that aren't at center nor at extremes and you have to deal with them. And these aren't consistent either amongst all analog joysticks.