The Tramiels

[Syfo-Dyas]

They left us with the 7800, which now has a new expansion that basically converts it into a new computer, or will at least in December. So if anything, I'm grateful for that. I just only wish the Jag hadn't been so rushed. As for the 8-bit, well a lot of unreleased stuff used to anger me, but with all the hardware expansions this community has been coming up with, I believe things have moved way past anything Atari would have seriously attempted to market.

 

It's the present Atari that I really dislike above all previous owners, though recently they did release Haunted House, and allow for the 7800 expansion to be built so maybe they are taking Nintendo's cue and going retro, now for them to higher developers who feel the vibe...

[The Usotsuki]

I've heard that Masato Nakamura composed the Sonic 1 and 2 BGM on an ST.

[kool kitty89]

Without the PC, the Apple II would have been the clone of choice

I agree. Or if not the Apple II, the Atari ST. There's a machine that's very simple to clone!

Yes, but given that wasn't until 1985 (and clones probably wouldn't start appearing in number until '87 at the earliest), there were a lot of others that were potential candidates. Again there were Tandy's machines which competed well alongside Apple and Commodore up to the beginning of the 80s (you had the Apple II, PET, and TRS-80 Model 1 with the latter in the lowest price range by far from the start), but then you had the TRS-80 model II which (while expensive) was one of the most capable business oriented computers on the consumer market of the time and probably the closest thing to the PC had it not been released -and should have cost significantly less than a PC in similar configuration by '81. (and how much would an apple II with disk drive, 32 or 64k of RAM, 80 column text support, and a monitor cost in 1979? -not to mention it would be slower compared to the 4 MHz Z80 and have much smaller capacity disks, and lack the potential to run CP/M, though you could argue using 8" floppies were less future proof than the 5.25" IBM disks with backwards compatible successors of higher capacity, though you also had 8" drives becoming more capable but simply less popular -they had >1MB with DSDD 8" years before 5.25 or 3.5" HD floppies were available)

 

Of course the question would be whether it would have garnered attention like IBM's name did for the PC regardless of the hardware fitting the bill, or if the Apple II would have simply had more interest in general. (it would also depend on Tandy pushing the model II more into the professional/corporate business end rather than mainly the small business range they had been aiming at more strongly) That and the lack of color graphics (or lack of graphics altogether really) could have been an issue even for business eventually (ie the same reason CGA started becoming more important on PCs with programs like Lotus 123), but a monochome (or grayscale) bitmap display could have addressed that too. (like the model 4 later had an add-on card for with 640x200 and 512x192 monochrome graphics modes -or CGA's 640x200 mono mode obviously)

 

And hell, if CP/M became the popular OS used (especially with TRSDOS being Tandy's, but CP/M available aftermarket and attractive to potential clone manufacturers as well as a general standard) and the graphics modes were added, perhaps a version of GEM would have emerged on the system as well.

 

 

But beyond that, remember there was also potential Japanese competition that was only really blocked by the stiff competition (especially the price war and flood of low-end machines, C64 pulling up the low/mid-range above that, and PCs pushing in the high-end/"serious" range), but NEC's PC8801 would otherwise have had potential as a major player as well, not only with 4 MHz Z80 and 80x25 text (CP/M support), but 640x200 8-color bitmap graphics and 48k of display RAM on top of the 64k of main RAM at its 1981 release in Japan. And there was the rough clone of that with the Sharp X1 (not so much a direct clone as convergent semi-compatible design with same CPU and similar graphics modes) along with the 1982 2MHz 6809 based FM-7 with similar graphics as well, but not CP/M compatible, instead running OS-9.

And prior to the PC8801 you had the original PC8000 back in 1979 with 16 or 32 kB of RAM, 40x25 and 80x25 text along with 160x100 8-color graphics.

And NEC dominated Japan's computer market with those machines and the later PC9800 line up to DOS machines finally pushing them out in the early 90s.

[Retro Rogue]

Atari was already a VERY dysfunctional organization by the time they took over, and employee morale was incredibly low. They weren't exactly welcomed with wide-eyed optimization, especially in the wake of the immediate layoffs which were entirely blamed on them. (Which does seem a little unfair, since they saved the company from 100% layoffs.)

 

The Tramiels didn't "take over" though, they bought the Consumer Division (not the people) including Atari Inc.'s consumer manufacturing and distribution network, and folded it in to TTL. Atari Corp. was a completely separate company, the Inc. employees were all tecnically still employed through Atari Inc. (which existed as a separate entity for a good year or so after the purchase). That's the reason for the interviews in June they all had to go through to see if they'd be "fired" or hired by Atari Corp. That's the irony, they were 100% laid off but didn't know it. We've seen the documents on what was all purchased at that time.

 

And when I talked to Leonard recently about this, he conveyed they felt horrible having to go through the process but that they knew going in they weren't going to be able to take everyone i.e. there was no way around it. They took on both of Atari's Inc.'s debts (what Inc. owed and what was owed to Inc.) as part of the valuation, with the collected debt intending to pay for operations - which didn't work out that way. People have no idea how Corp. was running on fumes all that time until things were hashed out well in to '86. And the fact that he was able to pull it all together and pay off all that debt (with no credit line) and bring Atari Corp. in to the black by the end of the year, as well as get the ST and XE lines finished is simply amazing.

[svenski]

I think once Windows arrived, well Windows 3 upward (from 1990?) PCs were going to go all the way, and the internet just made it a given.

 

Maybe if Atari, who as we know did dabble with PCs, had brought out a PC that could have run in ST and/or PC mode then that would have helped them make the transition. They did do a version of the GEM desktop for their PCs.

[Retro Rogue]

They left us with the 7800, which now has a new expansion that basically converts it into a new computer, or will at least in December.

 

That's Inc. that left us with the 7800, not Corp. And the Computer Expansion was around then as well, just not in the all in one updated format Curt's doing. Remember, the idea came from the module originally proposed by GCC in '84 combined with the high score module.

[Retro Rogue]

I think once Windows arrived, well Windows 3 upward (from 1990?) PCs were going to go all the way, and the internet just made it a given.

 

Maybe if Atari, who as we know did dabble with PCs, had brought out a PC that could have run in ST and/or PC mode then that would have helped them make the transition. They did do a version of the GEM desktop for their PCs.

 

Atari Corp's PC's came with an Atari version of MS-DOS and Windows 3.0. Unless you're confusing it with Digital Research's GEM available for DOS? Digital Research is the source of Atari's GEM.

[svenski]

I think once Windows arrived, well Windows 3 upward (from 1990?) PCs were going to go all the way, and the internet just made it a given.

 

Maybe if Atari, who as we know did dabble with PCs, had brought out a PC that could have run in ST and/or PC mode then that would have helped them make the transition. They did do a version of the GEM desktop for their PCs.

 

Atari Corp's PC's came with an Atari version of MS-DOS and Windows 3.0. Unless you're confusing it with Digital Research's GEM available for DOS? Digital Research is the source of Atari's GEM.

 

Sorry, the 3 Atari PCs I've seen all came with GEM so I presumed it was an Atari related version in some way and not a general DOS product.

 

I think what is interesting is the point you made about the Inc. staff. It made sense for Atari Inc. to continue for a period to tie up loose ends, help with the "transition" etc but it must have been terrible for the employees who continued to get their Atari Inc. paychecks. Did they really presume it was only going to be a case of the name on their paychecks changing from Atari inc. to corp., at least at the beginning?

[carmel_andrews]

I guess you can liken the tramiels to Marmite (or vegemite to rybags)...i.e you either like it or hate it (it's an acquired taste)...only thing is, i love marmite but not too sure about the tramiels

 

Seeming as though the next gen. of tramiels (gary and leonard) are now around the age that Jack was when he took the reigns of the big A...perhaps we will see a re-incarnation of the tramiels (or their offspring/children) running a computer or tech company sometime soon

Edited November 4, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[sack-c0s]

The problem both Atari and Commodore had was they didn't really secure a position in the educational or corporate/government sectors.

 

 

Acorn computers were used almost exclusively in the UK due to a deal with the government/BBC and they fizzled out not much longer after the Amiga and Atari machines for pretty much the same reasons, so that probably wouldn't have helped.

 

The thing Acorn did right though was skip 16-bit and design their own CPU for their 32-bit machines. I might have been the laughing stock at the time for having an Archimedes when everyone else had an Amiga or ST, but it did give me a headstart when ARM became very popular.

[flashjazzcat]

I guess you can liken the tramiels to Marmite (or vegemite to rybags)

Well, one thing's certain: no-one would compare you to marmite or vegemite.

 

...i.e you either like it or hate it (it's an acquired taste)

Thanks for clarifying the terminology.

 

...only thing is, i love marmite but not too sure about the tramiels

Confounding!

 

...perhaps we will see a re-incarnation of the tramiels (or their offspring/children) running a computer or tech company sometime soon

Reincarnation is the less likely scenario of the two, I feel.

Edited November 4, 2010 by flashjazzcat

[Bryan]

And the fact that he was able to pull it all together and pay off all that debt (with no credit line) and bring Atari Corp. in to the black by the end of the year, as well as get the ST and XE lines finished is simply amazing.

 

The rate at which the ST was developed was amazing. The XE line was pretty much a freebie except for the new plastic.

[Rybags]

But it shows.

 

The Amiga chipset is the culmination of months/years of effort and was leading edge in many regards.

 

All the original ST had really was Glue and Shifter, and had no real special graphics ability other than greater bitdepth over 8-bit machines and the Macintoshes of the time.

[Bryan]

But it shows.

 

The Amiga chipset is the culmination of months/years of effort and was leading edge in many regards.

 

All the original ST had really was Glue and Shifter, and had no real special graphics ability other than greater bitdepth over 8-bit machines and the Macintoshes of the time.

 

The sound chip was a travesty. Here was a 16-bit computer that sounded no better than 8-bits of the day (and in some cases worse). I have no real nostalgia for the ST although I owned everything from a 1040 to a Falcon030... maybe because I rode the decline all the way to the end.

[flashjazzcat]

I have no real nostalgia for the ST although I owned everything from a 1040 to a Falcon030... maybe because I rode the decline all the way to the end.

I didn't get hold of an ST until a couple of years back and it was going to be a back-burner project for later on. However, I find the machine deeply uninspiring. If I'd gotten one fifteen years ago I might actually have got some use out of it; I was dying for WIMP back then.

[Rybags]

Some of the demos on the STE show just what could have been.

 

For the millionth time - it's the machine that should have been the launch vehicle. It addresses all the main deficiencies vs the Amiga, except for open hardware architecture, multitasking OS, and hardware sprites.

[flashjazzcat]

I can see this going off on a tangent. The original ST was seemingly the Vista to the STE's Windows 7. This was, I suppose, the price paid for the rushed development to get the machine out in time to compete with the Amiga. I was quite surprised that GEM didn't get a more conspicuous overhaul when the STE was released, too.

Edited November 4, 2010 by flashjazzcat

[Bryan]

I was quite surprised that GEM didn't get a more conspicuous overhaul when the STE was released, too.

I think the situation with GEM was precarious. Apple sued DRI over the "look and feel" of GEM in '85 which resulted in the somewhat crippled GEM/2 for the PC. I don't know how flexible the license with DRI was, but this probably meant that Atari was stuck patching the version of GEM they had.

[+orpheuswaking]

I guess you can liken the tramiels to Marmite (or vegemite to rybags)

Well, one thing's certain: no-one would compare you to marmite or vegemite.

 

 

Oh I don't know FJC, Marmite is thick, cloying and disgusting... remind you of anyone?

[carmel_andrews]

I guess you can liken the tramiels to Marmite (or vegemite to rybags)

Well, one thing's certain: no-one would compare you to marmite or vegemite.

 

 

Oh I don't know FJC, Marmite is thick, cloying and disgusting... remind you of anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like flashjazzcat or yourself perhaps (JAT)

Edited November 4, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[flashjazzcat]

Good grief... what did I say to justify becoming the joint recipient of that ingeniously deflected put-down?

[+orpheuswaking]

I'm just curious as to why he believes I am a member of the Jat people?

[flashjazzcat]

I think it's some kind of acronym... blast these cursed riddles! Anyway, let's not go down that route. My fault for pushing the buttons.

 

 

[JohnBuell]

We could all of us "what if" ourselves to death here. I _do_ wish that some of the upgrades and peripherals discussed in 83-85 would/could surface in one way or another, but I don't lose sleep over it. I'm tickled pink to be able to back up my own personal documents to flash media and run games on my 8bits the same way. The Lynx was love at first sight for me, and even though I briefly owned an ST, it just wasn't the same for me as my 8bits. Some things I do wonder about, but entirely academically (again, none of this keeps me up at night, just things to think about):

 

If the right people had held onto Atari in 1983 (Warner? Someone else?), would they have had the Amiga, or wound up with something more like Apple's IIgs?

If the TTs and Falcons had taken off in the 1990s, what would have been next? TS computers? (Thirty-two/sixty-four)?

And maybe the biggest what if - what if Bushnell had said yes to Steve and Steve in the 70s and there had never been an Apple? Maybe he would have let them set up their own shop a la Kee Games?

[+wood_jl]

Wow, it's fun reading all these perspectives.

 

I bailed on the ST before the end, and have been without one for years. I find myself curiously nostalgic about the machine. The later developments (however few) I missed out on, completely. As a result, I find them quite interesting!

 

However, I can understand why someone who rode it out to the end would feel differently.