First impressions of the 5200

[+madman]

I never played a 5200 growing up, the closest I came to a 5200 was when a friend's mom accidentally bought him a 5200 cart for his 2600. I got one last week and have spent some time with and have come to the conclusion these are the worst controllers in the history of video gaming. I'd rather play Duck Hunt with a Power Glove than play most games with the 5200 controller. When I read everything about how shitty they are, I assumed people meant due to the fact that they break down. Much to my surprise they are equally as horrible when they are in proper working order. I'm no stranger to shitty controllers, I grew up with an Intellivision when my neighbors had 2600s. I have a Vectrex that I've logged countless hours on, so it's not the analog aspect. To me it's a combination of the fact the thing doesn't self center and also the programming.

 

Galaxian is pointless with this controller, if you need to quickly change direction, you can't. It reminds me of playing a platformer set in an "ice" stage. I just got done "playing" Vanguard and with the joystick clearly pointing upward my ship was vertically steady. The slow reaction when needing to change direction in the game simulates gaming while drunk, by the time your ship has moved in the direction you want, it is moving at an extreme. The only game I've played so far that doesn't make me want to chuck the system out the window (if it would fit) is Pole Position. The analog controller works really well with this title. Kangaroo seems to be a mixed bag with the controller, while the diagonals are easy to hit, it's also plagued by the 'roo running further than I'd want in a particular direction due to the stick.

 

The trak-ball I got needs some fixing, so I look forward to repairing it and giving it a try. I plan to build a Genesis pad converter and will track down some respectable old analog sticks to convert as well. A lot of the games are excellent ports, it's just the control is absolutely terrible. That all said--I do like the system and there are many games I've yet to play, but I don't think I'll have a positive experience until I get some controllers that I can actually, you know, control.

[bohoki]

yes the analog controller is not the best choice for rapid direction changes especially when comparing it to say a nice clicky epyx 500 or competition pro

 

 

which is why there is like a bajillion pc controllers out there some a perfect for flight sims and some are great for commander keen seldom does one work for many

[+madman]

True, but can you name another console where the pack-in controller is nearly useless for the majority of games on the console for which it was designed? For every other console I can think of, the OEM controller is considered the best with the exception of specialized controllers like paddles, bongos, guitars, etc.

[+Cafeman]

I just got done "playing" Vanguard and with the joystick clearly pointing upward my ship was vertically steady.

 

Well, as a 5200 fan, I think Galaxian and Vanguard pretty much suck regardless of whether you play it on Atari 8bit computers with digital stick, or 5200 with the analogue default stick. But still, what you've described sounds like you've got a busted/poorly calibrated stick.

 

I must have gotten the 2nd wave of 5200 sticks when my parents bought me my 5200 in the 80's. It had more rubber and kind of did self-center because of it. After getting used to it, I had no problems with Pac-man, Mario bros, Joust, Frogger, or Q*bert, the games I initially owned. A good stick can really make a difference with the 5200.

 

still, I concede that a digital controlling stick is better for many of these games. But I, and many others, have never found the stock sticks to ruin the experience.

[+madman]

OK, so I take back some of what I said. I'm not knocking the seller I bought from, but I was told the sticks were rev 9 refurbs with Best Electronic parts so I assumed this was as good as it gets. I just used 2 of the broken controllers it came with and the sticks are WAY better. If I push down in Vanguard, the ship just goes down until I release the stick. With the 2 refurbed controllers I have the stick "sticks" in the direction I press. I have to manually re-center the stick to make it stop moving a certain direction. I figured the controls couldn't possibly be this horrible. I'm going to swap some parts and play the games again, but just doing Vanguard alone gives me hope.

[doctorclu]

" I'd rather play Duck Hunt with a Power Glove than play most games with the 5200 controller."

 

Now that was choice!! LOL!

 

That said, the 5200 controller sucks big time. I hated the 5200 for that reason, but liked the case, and the game selection is good arcade quality selections. Just get a redemption module of some type to use better stick, the Wico stick for the 5200, or the PC sticks and leave the 5200 sticks behind you.

 

Honestly I play the 5200 often and have no idea where my stock 5200 sticks are. I think they are in pieces in some box because of me trying to fix one and then getting it back together is a MAJOR PAIN. And I just took apart and reassembled a 17" Mac Powerbook which had a gazillion more tiny screws, connectors, wires, and ribbon cables and did that just fine, but that damned 5200 controller...

 

Perhaps I could have gotten it back together, but didn't care enough to keep trying.

Edited November 5, 2010 by doctorclu

[+madman]

I spent some time swapping out the "refurbed" controllers with the tops of broken controllers and now I have a much better gaming experience. I push a direction and the character/ship only goes that way while I'm pushing the joystick. I'm going to guess the rubber boots on the refurbs are the issue. I didn't see an easy way to replace them, but I'm sure there's a web page on how to do so. It'd be nice to get proper boots on the refurbs as they are much nicer looking controllers, it'll be a WIP. Best's site says the boot doesn't have any affect, but that and the stick are the only parts on the top half that made the controller work properly.

Edited November 5, 2010 by madman

[oldjd]

I did play the 5200 when it first came out.And like others was extremely dissapointed with the joysticks.As a matter of fact,I thought that the sticks were defective.It reminded me of the 2600 paddle with the jittering issue.

At that point,I was so disgusted with it,I sold it and ,I bought a Colecovision,and was very happy.

About 5 yrs ago,I got another 5200,and just for fun played it,and sure enough the sticks were still crapola.

After taking them apart,I found a similar issue with the rubber boots,and after replacing them,noticed an improvement with the game play.But.....still ....spending big coin in the 80s for what should have been a fun deal,actually turned me against Atari products for a long time.

And of course,the resounding crash in the 80s probably didnt do much to enhance the reputation.

I still think the Wicos are the best for the 5200,even if they are a pain to get aligned

[+madman]

I guess I spoke too soon. The other controller tops only made a difference in a few games. The big problem is that they don't self center, it's just the boots I used did a better job than the refurb boots. I'm still a fan of the games, just need to build a few adapters and pick up some controllers to really enjoy the games.

[OldAtarian]

I finally managed to pick up a pair of partially working 5200 sticks and I'm having no problems with them in Pac Man, Galaxian, or Pole Position. I'm still going to send in a pair for rebuilding, but they're not as bad as people make them out to be. At the time they were new, there were virtually no complaints about how well they responded as controllers. Break downs were the only real cause of discontent.

 

I blame the AVGN for most of the bad press that the 5200 is getting today. His review sucked, just like most of his reviews suck. He spends 6 minutes of a 10 minute review hooking it up and most of the problems he encounters are his own fault in the first place like not having enough outlets on his power strips for one more console and then not having his television close enough to a wall outlet so he has to go get an extension cord which he promptly trips over and does one of the most hilarious faceplants I've ever seen. Then, when he's done acting like a clown, he complains about crap that isn't even complaint worthy like the controller storage bin which is actually a brilliant idea for eliminating cable clutter and the automatic switchbox which has not been found to be responsible for a single house fire in spite of all the FUD that is spread about it. When he finally gets around to the controllers, he talks about them as if the 5200 is a brand new system and not something that is 30 years old. Like any other 30 year old electro-mechanical device, the controllers are going to have a limited lifespan. What company do you know of that designs their products to last 30 years? Even auto makers don't do that. He does not even mention the fact that they are fixable, which probably scares the crap out of a lot of people from even trying out a 5200.

 

As for the AVGN himself, I think he should find a new hobby. He has a wall covered with game carts but he doesn't even seem to like games. I have never seen him do a positive review of anything. On the rare occasion when he does find something positive to say he does it in a smarmy, condescending tone or in such a way that it minimizes the good thing to the point where it becomes irrelevant. He should just sell off all his games and systems and buy something that he can be happy about instead of something that makes him miserable.

Edited November 5, 2010 by OldAtarian

[The Usotsuki]

I rather liked the Apple //e joystick, which was analog and 2-button.

[Ransom]

I rather liked the Apple //e joystick, which was analog and 2-button.

 

Yeah, those were the days.

 

As far as 5200 controllers, it's a complicated thing. So many variables: the game and how it was programmed, the quality of the controller and its age, and whether the console itself is calibrated, just for starters.

 

But even the ideal situation with the standard 5200 controllers is not for everyone. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the three ballbusters are Intellivision, Colecovision, and the 5200 when it comes to controllers. Some people like one or the other. A few like two of them. But very few like all three. I have no problem with Intellivision and 5200 controllers, but the Colecovision ones are just awful to me. Rapidly pushing those buttons makes my hand hurt, and the stubby stick always gives me fits -- especially on the games that are already strange to control, such as Venture with its first response of pointing the bow, then moving your character a second later (necessary, I know, but not welcome when you want to rapidly move out of the way of something!).

 

Anyway, if the 5200 sticks suck for you, there's no shame in getting a different stick. If you're amenable, try some of the fixes (calibration, a controller direct from Brad at Best Electronics), and try some of the better games (YMMV of course, but Centipede, Missile Command, and Qix are some of the better ones IMO). If you're still having trouble, try a different controller such as a modified PC controller or one of the Wico sticks or something along those lines.

 

In the end, I had to make a custom controller for the Colecovision in order to really get anything out of it. And now I love it! I hope you're able to come to some accommodation with the 5200, because it really is a great system (just like the Inty and CV are).

[BydoEmpire]

How well the controller works depends almost entirely on the programming, imho. Space Invaders, Pac Man, Qix and Keystone Kapers are a few games you wouldn't think would control well with the 5200 stick, but they work perfectly (in fact, the 5200's is my favorite home port of Pac Man). Other games such as Missile Command works really, really well with the 5200 sticks. I love Vanguard, but it is a little tough on the 5200. Not unplayable, but it could definitely be better.

 

At least my hand doesn't cramp up instantly with the 5200 sticks, unlike the CV's and 7800's.

[Charlie_]

As far as 5200 controllers, it's a complicated thing. So many variables: the game and how it was programmed, the quality of the controller and its age, and whether the console itself is calibrated, just for starters.

 

But even the ideal situation with the standard 5200 controllers is not for everyone. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the three ballbusters are Intellivision, Colecovision, and the 5200 when it comes to controllers. Some people like one or the other. A few like two of them. But very few like all three. I have no problem with Intellivision and 5200 controllers, but the Colecovision ones are just awful to me. Rapidly pushing those buttons makes my hand hurt, and the stubby stick always gives me fits -- especially on the games that are already strange to control, such as Venture with its first response of pointing the bow, then moving your character a second later (necessary, I know, but not welcome when you want to rapidly move out of the way of something!).

 

Anyway, if the 5200 sticks suck for you, there's no shame in getting a different stick. If you're amenable, try some of the fixes (calibration, a controller direct from Brad at Best Electronics), and try some of the better games (YMMV of course, but Centipede, Missile Command, and Qix are some of the better ones IMO). If you're still having trouble, try a different controller such as a modified PC controller or one of the Wico sticks or something along those lines.

 

In the end, I had to make a custom controller for the Colecovision in order to really get anything out of it. And now I love it! I hope you're able to come to some accommodation with the 5200, because it really is a great system (just like the Inty and CV are).

 

Ransom's post is just about the same way I would reply. Except I haven't made a custom CV controller yet. That controller and that stupid little coiled wire also gives me fits. I need to look into a solution, or at least an extension cable!

 

As for your 5200, your controllers could need a good rebuild. Even then you may not get along with them. So you can consider hunting down a masterplay interface, redemption, or other digital stick converter. There is also the Wico stick many swear by. It uses a Y cable and you still need a well working 5200 controller for the keypad and START PAUSE RESET buttons. Or get the wico keypad. Also the wico stick isnt that reliable either. I have and have had many more that have jittery pots, broken Y cables, the stick never really centers and the slide adjuster doesnt move far enough to correct the issue...

 

After all that , there is an adjustment in the 5200 that adjusts something to the pokey chip and directly effects the center point readings of the joystick. If it is way off you can have a perfect wico, stock, or any converted controller and your control will be unreliable. I used to test this with a know good stick and the ladders in Pitfall. If you can climb up and down the ladders, your pokey adjustment is a least pretty close.

[bohoki]

I rather liked the Apple //e joystick, which was analog and 2-button.

 

 

funny you should mention that ive been playing around with an apple joystick i converted to 5200

 

its pretty good but has a tad but of jittter its nice and springy back to center

 

VANGUARD blew it the programmers removed diagonal movement so the game is impossible in the faster levels now it has this one place that is like in supercobra that you have to do just right or you slam wall and without being able to go down and back at the same time it just takes all joy away

[Ransom]

VANGUARD blew it the programmers removed diagonal movement so the game is impossible in the faster levels now it has this one place that is like in supercobra that you have to do just right or you slam wall and without being able to go down and back at the same time it just takes all joy away

 

We have a winnah!

 

(Nice A2 Joystick conversion, BTW. I hope you're able to fix the jitter.)

[jchase1970]

Digital sticks are on or off, so push right = go right, no push = stop.

Analog sticks give a return value in a range of 1 to -1, so depending on where the stick is on a axis, like side to side, you get a value from 1 to -1 with 0 in the middle.

 

So all the programmers had to do was program games that were digital controls to emulate that with the analog sticks, very easy but I think atari wanted to showcase the analog sticks.

 

Glaxian for example was designed to use the analog controls, where it should have has emulated digital controls, but this was a design decision probably by atari to show off the analog sticks.

 

How would they emulate the digital controls on the analog sticks, simple, remember that 1 is all the way left 0 is middle and -1 is all the way right. and remember that you can have any position in between like .2,.33,.67,.88,.90, ect. so you program it to be

you have a constant speed value

speed=1 pixel per frame

if stick value >.5 then move left by speed value

if stick value <.5 then move right by speed value

else stop

 

it's really that simple, but here's what they did to showcase the analog sticks

 

x=stick value

speed=x times max speed

 

now that wouldn't be so bad cause you could flip left/right but they made it even more analog by adding momentum to it

so stick left the ship movement speeds up, then when you press right the ship speed has to slow to 0 1st then the ship begins to move right at a faster and faster rate until reaches (stick value times max speed) all the way right = max speed.

 

again it's all in the programming and it was a design decision. nothing to do with the sticks at all.

[Charlie_]

I actually like the variable speed offered with the analog stick in 5200 Galaxian. I just wish they would have done better with the graphics. More like the arcade or CV version of the game.