"Doom" vs. "Wolfenstein 3D"

[LinkoVitch]

Compilers? Was JagDoom just compiled C or something?

 

I take it they didn't use MADMAC and ALN?

 

or is it written in some other language or something?

[Thunderbird]

Compilers?  Was JagDoom just compiled C or something?

 

I take it they didn't use MADMAC and ALN?

 

or is it written in some other language or something?

 

 

I recall they made their own version of GNU C for the GPU/DSP and used that.

[LinkoVitch]

well that would be one explanation of why it was so damn slow, even the Atari Docs say the Jag isn't really upto running C code, and is designed as an Assembly only machine...

 

Wonder what it would have been like had they done a propper conversion.

[Thunderbird]

well that would be one explanation of why it was so damn slow, even the Atari Docs say the Jag isn't really upto running C code, and is designed as an Assembly only machine...

 

Wonder what it would have been like had they done a propper conversion.

 

 

Someone recently unearthed a thread (Slashdot?) where he talked about how it was done and how it could have been better or improved. I think Atari was rushing them too. Kinda sad, actually!

[Punisher5.0]

well that would be one explanation of why it was so damn slow, even the Atari Docs say the Jag isn't really upto running C code, and is designed as an Assembly only machine...

 

Wonder what it would have been like had they done a propper conversion.

 

Slow? The Jaguar version was fast as hell. If you want to see a slow version then go play the one for SNES.

[Flojomojo]

20 FPS is hardly "fast as hell." It was certainly adequate though.

 

The SNES version is an abortion, but's cool that it kept all the levels and music, unlike EVERY OTHER console version, including CD consoles.

[Punisher5.0]

20 FPS is hardly "fast as hell."  It was certainly adequate though.

 

The SNES version is an abortion, but's cool that it kept all the levels and music, unlike EVERY OTHER console version, including CD consoles.

 

The pace of the game was fast as hell, smooth, and full screen. Id take that over music.

[Goochman]

Wasnt Doom delayed for Wolf 3D - Didnt they do a prototype of the engine and found that Wolf 3D could be whipped out pretty quickly, hence Doom got pushed back so they could get almost a freebie with the Doom design?

[JagMod]

20 FPS is hardly "fast as hell."  It was certainly adequate though.

 

Actually, it is software limited to 15 fps. Any faster at the 160x200 resolution and you don't see anything but a blur when moving.

 

JagMod

[t.skid]

Actually, it is software limited to 15 fps. Any faster at the 160x200 resolution and you don't see anything but a blur when moving.

 

JagMod

 

Why it was limited?

[Thunderbird]

20 FPS is hardly "fast as hell."  It was certainly adequate though.

 

Actually, it is software limited to 15 fps. Any faster at the 160x200 resolution and you don't see anything but a blur when moving.

 

JagMod

 

I never heard that. Are you sure? Sounds like an excuse to me. They could have made the framerate faster and just moved a shorter distance.

 

For example:

Say the floor moves 40 pixels when running and the screen is going 15FPS.

 

Why not update the screen at 30FPS and move the floor only 20 pixels?

 

The speed is still the same (600 pixels per second). Why limit the framerate?

 

Sounds bogus!

[Nukey Shay]

That's not a logical example...the underlying routines that move the floor takes the same amount of time regardless of how many pixels are being moved (since it has to calculate the visible area and draw points relative to other unseen points).

[JagMod]

I never heard that. Are you sure? Sounds like an excuse to me. They could have made the framerate faster and just moved a shorter distance.  

 

For example:  

Say the floor moves 40 pixels when running and the screen is going 15FPS.

 

Why not update the screen at 30FPS and move the floor only 20 pixels?

 

The speed is still the same (600 pixels per second). Why limit the framerate?

 

Sounds bogus!

 

Hey, don't blame me. You have the source too.

It's even commented in the ISR that it is forced to 15 fps.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

JagMod

[Thunderbird]

That's not a logical example...the underlying routines that move the floor takes the same amount of time regardless of how many pixels are being moved (since it has to calculate the visible area and draw points relative to other unseen points).

 

 

I'm not talking about moving pixels from one place to another. I am using pixels as a unit of distance. If it makes the example any clearer for you then just say that the floor moved "10 feet" at 15 FPS and "5 feet" at 30FPS.

 

The example is perfectly valid.

[Thunderbird]

It's even commented in the ISR that it is forced to 15 fps.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

JagMod

 

 

I think your're misinterpreting what it means. There's no reason to limit the framerate.

[JagMod]

I think your're misinterpreting what it means. There's no reason to limit the framerate.

 

 

Ok, I agree, if you move a shorter distance at a higher frame rate, then its ok to increase the frame rate.

But that doesn't change the fact that Doom on the jag is limited to 15 fps.

I'm assumming it was not consistant at 20 fps (or greater) so Id decided to make the move distanced fixed.

 

JagMog

[LinkoVitch]

if a frame rate isn't limited, isn't there potential for screen sheering to appear if the frame rate fluctuates drastically?

 

Perhaps they ran a timedemo (or something) to see what on average the frame rate changed too. and 15 was the best average they could muster, so rather than have it go to poo in places, just lock everywhere down to the same rate?

 

like locking refresh on your PC to monitor refresh, coz there is no real point rendering more frames than you can display.

[Thunderbird]

I think your're misinterpreting what it means. There's no reason to limit the framerate.

 

 

Ok, I agree, if you move a shorter distance at a higher frame rate, then its ok to increase the frame rate.

But that doesn't change the fact that Doom on the jag is limited to 15 fps.

I'm assumming it was not consistant at 20 fps (or greater) so Id decided to make the move distanced fixed.

 

JagMog

 

 

Your answer seems valid. It probably couldn't hold steady at anythign faster than 15, so they clipped it to 15 so that it would not speed up and slow down.

[Atari_Owl]

Your answer seems valid. It probably couldn't hold steady at anything faster than 15, so they clipped it to 15 so that it would not speed up and slow down.

 

This is an idea i was sort of trying to talk about in another strand (about Supercross 3d i think) a long time a go, before i got told i didn't know anything about 3D.

 

Essentially all i was trying to say then, was that the changes in frame rate could be more problematic than a slightly low framerate, in terms of perception of smoothness. (I know Supercross 3d is toooooo slow)

 

I was just postulating also that bearing in mind the amount of pop-up in some games anyhow, that it might even have been allowable to slightly reduce the clipping far plane.

 

Cheers

[LinkoVitch]

supercross would have been better if there was an option to turn off the texturemapping.. which I think should be an option in all Jag 3D games..

[Thunderbird]

supercross would have been better if there was an option to turn off the texturemapping.. which I think should be an option in all Jag 3D games..

 

I heard a long time ago this was an option in one of the unreleased games and that it was a "code", but the developer forgot the sequence.

[LinkoVitch]

DOH! :/

 

I tend to find that the frame rate takes too much of a hit when they have gone texture crazy in games. I would rather have a silky smooth 3D game than one with textures that hops along. From the Movie I have seen of BS it looks very smooth and whizzy and I was very impressed.

 

Always baffles me why so many Jag 3D games move so badly yet I have seen several 3D efforts on the ST which has no-where near the processing power move at a much better rate (dare I say chequred flag which almost made me cry )

 

If I ever do a 3D game, I deffinately think there will be an option to loose textures.

[Thunderbird]

DOH! :/

 

I tend to find that the frame rate takes too much of a hit when they have gone texture crazy in games.  I would rather have a silky smooth 3D game than one with textures that hops along.  From the Movie I have seen of BS it looks very smooth and whizzy and I was very impressed.

 

Always baffles me why so many Jag 3D games move so badly yet I have seen several 3D efforts on the ST which has no-where near the processing power move at a much better rate (dare I say chequred flag which almost made me cry )

 

If I ever do a 3D game, I deffinately think there will be an option to loose textures.

 

 

The problem isn't really the lack of processing power or the programmers using too many textures. The reason there are zippy fast 3D games on the ST and Amiga with less power is that those systems used graphics systems with very few bits per pixel. If you did a game on the Jag that used 4 or 8 bits per pixel it would have to move a lot less bits around. The advantage of using loads of bits is you get smooth shading and tons of colors to choose from, giving realistic colors and details and effects.

 

The Jag was built around 16-bit pixels for the shading and Z-buffering effects, which made games like BattleSphere possible. But if you look at Zero-5 you'll see what is possible using 8-bit pixels. You'll notice it's not shaded and has less colors. But it's still zippy and smooth.

 

But even in 1994, if you made a totally unshaded polygon game you'd get laughed at, so nobody else bothered to do it, and used 16-bit pixels which take twice as long to blit around.

[Flojomojo]

But even in 1994, if you made a totally unshaded polygon game you'd get laughed at, so nobody else bothered to do it, and used 16-bit pixels which take twice as long to blit around.

Twice as long, or 4x as long?

 

TBird, is a DirectX version of Battlesphere in the cards, or should i just stop thinking about that every time I see you post something? I'm over the Jaguar but I wouldn't mind seeing your work on a modern platform.

[Thunderbird]

We're still looking for someone to back such a project. But something a bit simpler may emerge from our labs sometime.