Prevention of copying in Emulators A8 Files

[José Pereira]

Hi, in the past there was some copies protection, I remember to get a Game from Tiger Developments with a Paper with letters and symbols...

 

If for example, me or any other with some coders want to get some games/Programs into A8, but think that they need to be paid, even for just a small amount for each copy, is there any way creating a download Files for A8 that each one could load the File but this file would not be possible to load in others Emulators...

 

Even if it is one P.C. File that recognize the owners and it opens the A8 File. Then others P.C. couldn't open it...

 

Anyone ever think in this?

(not trying to begin an A8 Industry but just some Thoughts...).

Greetings.

José Pereira.

[Bryan]

I don't see any practical way to protect an A8 program today other than making it in a custom cartridge that isn't easy to dump. Anything else will just be dumped and turned into a file.

 

The way I see it, the way to make a few bucks is to offer a nice package for collectors. However, if you're expecting Atari programming to be a financially sound endeavor you're going to be disappointed.

[Rybags]

Not really.

 

You can write a program such that it can detect if it's running on an emultor, although Altirra is closing that gap.

 

The only realistic way of having a downloadable program for Atari that'd be locked in a sense would be to have a customised emulator with all the debugging stuff removed, and have the Atari program encrypted such that only that emulator version could make sense of it.

 

But that wouldn't stop one person just giving copies of the whole package to others, and it'd work on anyone elses PC.

 

Another way might be to have it only work on a registered IP Address but that's only good for people with fixed IPs, and not a very nice way to enforce ownership, plus it's got privacy issues.

[flashjazzcat]

You might consider offering, for a small fee, "registered" copies unique to the individual. They could have the owner's name emblazoned on the title screen, i.e. "Registered to Bob Smith". If the individual's name is suitably encrypted in the executable, it would deter non-programmers/hackers. But other than appealing to one's conscience or offering a presentation package which cannot be wholly duplicated, it's true that not much can be done.

[José Pereira]

I don't see any practical way to protect an A8 program today other than making it in a custom cartridge that isn't easy to dump. Anything else will just be dumped and turned into a file.

 

The way I see it, the way to make a few bucks is to offer a nice package for collectors. However, if you're expecting Atari programming to be a financially sound endeavor you're going to be disappointed.

 

 

No, i am not expecting that...

But thinking in a Big, Big project that Cart would not be for all because:

- They would not have a real Machine

- Or that they just don't want to pay as much as a cart may costs.

 

It can be a large Project that needs some rights or work pay that would need to be commercial the only way possible...

(Carts at the normal price but also gives something on the download Files for the Emulators, just some coins, like Mobile Games download)

 

Think thaat this could be the only solution I have for getting a Majour/very big production into A8.

Thanks.

 

José Pereira.

[José Pereira]

Not really.

 

You can write a program such that it can detect if it's running on an emultor, although Altirra is closing that gap.

 

The only realistic way of having a downloadable program for Atari that'd be locked in a sense would be to have a customised emulator with all the debugging stuff removed, and have the Atari program encrypted such that only that emulator version could make sense of it.

 

But that wouldn't stop one person just giving copies of the whole package to others, and it'd work on anyone elses PC.

 

Another way might be to have it only work on a registered IP Address but that's only good for people with fixed IPs, and not a very nice way to enforce ownership, plus it's got privacy issues.

 

 

Something like P.C. online Games ddedicated to this particular Game where you play this Game on an Emulator.

Each one pays a small amount, gets a Password, plays the Game but never gets the File?

 

 

 

José Pereira.

Edited December 29, 2010 by José Pereira

[Bryan]

Strange, so you're writing a big Atari game but primarily targeting an emulation audience?

 

How about releasing a limited demo version for emulators, and putting the entire game on cartridge?

 

The only other solution is to make a PC game to A8-spec and include all the hardcore DRM you want. Or perhaps implement it in a Flash web object with a username/password.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Bryan

[svenski]

I don't see any practical way to protect an A8 program today other than making it in a custom cartridge that isn't easy to dump. Anything else will just be dumped and turned into a file.

 

The way I see it, the way to make a few bucks is to offer a nice package for collectors. However, if you're expecting Atari programming to be a financially sound endeavor you're going to be disappointed.

 

 

No, i am not expecting that...

But thinking in a Big, Big project that Cart would not be for all because:

- They would not have a real Machine

- Or that they just don't want to pay as much as a cart may costs.

 

It can be a large Project that needs some rights or work pay that would need to be commercial the only way possible...

(Carts at the normal price but also gives something on the download Files for the Emulators, just some coins, like Mobile Games download)

 

Think thaat this could be the only solution I have for getting a Majour/very big production into A8.

Thanks.

 

José Pereira.

 

You could do something similar to what Microprose used to do in their manuals. Have a challenge screen where you have to enter a matching code or refer to page xxx of the manual to confirm the correct option - something like that before the game runs but if someone is going to rip the program then they will probably rip out the protection too.

 

Another option as Rybags mentioned would be to have the game packaged with an emulator in an executable which would require a product key to run - product keys are easy to implement but again easy to get around.

[Rybags]

I think the best solution is release a free cut-down version with about a quarter of the content so people can get a taste.

 

Release the full version only available as a disk or cart, and make it such that it's worth people buying.

 

But on the other hand - look at the quality full releases of recent years that have been totally free, like Yoomp and His Dark Majesty.

[flashjazzcat]

You have to do it for the love of it, really. Ask for donations. If the software's good enough, people will open their wallets. As far back as the mid-Nineties, I started to tire of people asking for shareware fees for Atari software - especially when stuff like TextPro didn't cost a dime.

 

Hardware development is probably the only way to make a modest sum from the A8, and that generally just about covers expenses. Even writing the firmware for harware often generates zero income...

Edited December 29, 2010 by flashjazzcat

[José Pereira]

I think the best solution is release a free cut-down version with about a quarter of the content so people can get a taste.

 

Release the full version only available as a disk or cart, and make it such that it's worth people buying.

 

But on the other hand - look at the quality full releases of recent years that have been totally free, like Yoomp and His Dark Majesty.

 

Think that I really have to pay to get things...

And that someone(s) needs to be paid.

 

And that it's something I may never get another chance in life

José Pereira.

Edited December 29, 2010 by José Pereira

[flashjazzcat]

Think that I really have to pay to get things...

And that someone(s) needs to be paid.

The target platform is 30 years old. There are people writing high-quality PC apps who struggle to make money from their expertise. If people need to be paid, I think they need to find alternative employment.

[svenski]

The only real way is to go the cart route but that isn't 100% copy proof but if the game is good enough and the artwork and packaging are of a high standard then people will buy but you won't get rich off of it.

 

HDM is a perfect example of a fantastic game deserving of a full retail price but released 25 years "too late".

[José Pereira]

The only real way is to go the cart route but that isn't 100% copy proof but if the game is good enough and the artwork and packaging are of a high standard then people will buy but you won't get rich off of it.

 

HDM is a perfect example of a fantastic game deserving of a full retail price but released 25 years "too late".

 

 

I am not trying to get money from this, but I probably need Money as the only way to turn one of my A8 dreams come true.

José Pereira.

 

P.s.- If the Game is just cart only it will put all the others without it.

I want to get this one into the A8 community, for all.

Here it's the contradiction. I want to offer this to everyone but probably I can't

And If I not suceed in some way or another probably Bye, Bye this one and I will be for a lot of Time (and now that I have soo many things going on into A8, really I am very these Days!...)

José Pereira.

[Mclaneinc]

I admire you wish José but I really doubt there's much you can do about it, hardware and application software maybe but games unless the packaging etc is pretty special will never pull in any real cash, I really think you should either set yourself the notion of donations or not bother because it might be a load of work that sits in the closet bar a few sales.

 

As mentioned there's also been some killer games this year that are free, these games have had lots of time and effort put into them and the thought behind them is that people enjoy playing them (and they might win a compo) but there's no financial kickback.

 

Best of luck tho...

[Bryan]

I want the same things. I'd write A8 games 24/7 if someone would pay me a decent wage to do it. As it is, I'm sitting on a pile of half-finished ideas because I never had the time to develop them. So, for now I have to be thankful for the things I have been able to accomplish.

 

The real solution is to find a "warm-body" job. One of those jobs where they need somebody to be there, but 90%+ of the time you're just waiting for something to happen. I know a guy who's a security guard and he basically sits in his car all night playing iPhone games. Then you could bring a laptop and develop A8 software on-the-clock, and not worry about selling a single copy.

[Heaven/TQA]

assuming I would finally finish Beyond Evil... why the hell should I copy protect it? I would vote for releasing the game on cart or disc with manual/serial for the collectors. Dream of me will be the EA style of the 80s. but copy protection? aehm... for what?

[José Pereira]

I want the same things. I'd write A8 games 24/7 if someone would pay me a decent wage to do it. As it is, I'm sitting on a pile of half-finished ideas because I never had the time to develop them. So, for now I have to be thankful for the things I have been able to accomplish.

 

The real solution is to find a "warm-body" job. One of those jobs where they need somebody to be there, but 90%+ of the time you're just waiting for something to happen. I know a guy who's a security guard and he basically sits in his car all night playing iPhone games. Then you could bring a laptop and develop A8 software on-the-clock, and not worry about selling a single copy.

 

Or, not judging anyone for wanting Money but probably need some money more or are in a situation that he have to get, and all he gets is usefull to him... and there are many cases these Days!...

He probably have to start doing things he knows best and probably A8 is one them.

 

 

I have for now almost all day free and that's why I am almost all time here and always with new Screens/Thoughts/Topics!...

Always trying to get Things into A8.

This because I take some decisions in Life, good and/or bad but I am alive and have to do something... if A8 is one of the Things that gives me the most pleasure then I am into it!

For now I am doing my Life without Money needed in certain circunstancies... have Bed, Food for me and my female Dog, have some Family Things (House,... but no Money).

I spent my Day on A8, my female Dog and giving food to abandon Cats near me.

But also working free-time from this on a Lisbon art-Nouveau Buildings history/Architects that is now sttoped because there are no funding help/contributions from Public/Private these days. But it's also another thing I want to do in my Life, and I will not give up.

I decided that I would not waste Money going into pubs, cafe/restaurant with people all times there's Football on T.V.

Instead I take care of animals and A8

 

 

I have soo many good and not soo good things in Life and I am here.

tomorrow is another Day...

How many times I wake up and have here a P.M. with a coder that wants to program a Game with me? O.k., not many but I never had any coder/any Game and in the last 3/4 months I get some, and 2or3 are GOING ON

 

 

Greetings to everybody.

José Pereira.

Edited December 29, 2010 by José Pereira

[flashjazzcat]

And are we to assume that these coders require an advance fee for their work? I'm guessing those coders also have paid jobs? Perhaps it would take a cash incentive for them to spend their evenings following a hard day at work coding your project.

 

Someone on this forum once asked me for money for a code library and I had to turn them down because I couldn't afford it. It was more expedient for me to write it myself. I'm in much the same financial situation as you, José, but although I have quite a lot of time on my hands and I'm a coder, I'll never finish half the things I want to do on the A8.

[+Stephen]

Think that I really have to pay to get things...

And that someone(s) needs to be paid.

The target platform is 30 years old. There are people writing high-quality PC apps who struggle to make money from their expertise. If people need to be paid, I think they need to find alternative employment.

I agree. I use my A8 as a hobby, and anything I might release on it will be given away along with source code. If Last Word 3.2 is free, and Sparta DOS X 4.43 is free, I can't think of anything "worth" paying for on the machine. Giving out donations sure. New hardware - hell yeah, I buy tons of it. More than I can use actually, which is why I have some new stuff currently unopened. Sorry to sound harsh, but that's just the reality of it.

[candle]

if someone wants to buy, because it feels like it - why not

best examples are with nosty and his gr8 software - maybe not all - i don't know, but most of this stuff is available from his page - you can d/l it at will

but you can't download nice box, or piece of hardware (cartridge), or little add-ons

sure everything costs, but price should cover this plus some income to keep things rolling

if you try to get your work protected by other means - like suggested in first post - sooner or later it will be cracked, or simply left forgotten, as not even worth the trouble of doing so

 

think about it

in the end - its just a hobby

[flashjazzcat]

I think people are generally disinclined to buy software, period, although an author of A8 software can probably rely on the good will of the user (via donations) more than, say, Microsoft. The 12 user site license for a major anti-virus suite which ended up on 750,000 machines world-wide is a case in point. A new graphics card, hard disk, or motherboard cannot to torrented or easily duplicated. The same is true of VBXE and the IDEa interface, of course. Moreover, the author of the firmware for the hardware device is more likely to be compensated, since there is inevitable revenue (even if marginal) from the sale of the hardware.

 

Software development, on the other hand, tends to incur no costs other than the time investment put in by the programmer. They may have the overhead of the upkeep and development of their A8 hardware, but that's a rather abstract consideration which only the most understanding and insightful software consumer (who may also make donations to the software author) will take into account. Hardware development, meanwhile, has very obvious overheads on top of the time investment: parts, PCB design, protoyping and fabrication, board manufacture, etc.

 

Nicely packaged software with manuals, etc, also implies some kind of cash outlay in the manufacturing stage, so therefore the customer has no issue with parting with their cash. Without these niceties, however, the author of A8 software doesn't have a hope in hell of making a profit.

Edited December 29, 2010 by flashjazzcat

[TMR]

Yup, the unique selling point of releases from GR8, Psytronik, Superfighter Team, Atlantis Games Group, Cronosoft or any of the other 8-bit publishers is the overall package; the game on whichever media, a nice box or case, labels and inlays, a good instruction manual and so forth. It's worth noting that adding a protection scheme can be like waving a red rag at a bull as well, anything that one programmer can add that will get in the way of enjoying a game (like a fiddly call and response from the manual or on disk protection that slows down loading) can and usually will get ripped off by another programmer.

[Spurge]

Hardware dongles used to be good protection, ie: the serial port dongle. But being run on an emulator? Whould be hard.

 

Face it though, if someone wants to break the protection, it'll be broken. If it's only to be run on an emulator, why not even try online verification/activation. Most people couldn't be bothered with the constant update of cracks etc. and will pay to activate online. only a hardcore pirate would still crack it, and they wouldn't have ever paid for it anyway, so no point counting that as a loss.

[Mclaneinc]

There's nothing worse than making a game where the overbearing level of protection makes the game inaccessible for some time or worse still the protection is poorly written and can be incorrectly triggered making the game unplayable and the wish to try again zero.

 

Personally I think the idea of protecting games made these days as somewhat of a sin (if you will) especially as in this case the buyer if there is one is just going to get an digital download.