What is expected lifetime of IC's

[+5-11under]

There's plenty of gear out there that has run continuously for well over 20 years. Besides the chips themselves, a lot of it depends on the circuit design. In my previous job, we were running most of a newspaper with computers from the early '80s, with back-ups from the '70s. It was a well-built system, with many components, with breakdowns being very rare. The core memory never died. The back-up hard drives from the '70s were continuosly on, although not actively engaged (except on Saturday morning when we had to put in the next set of ~5x ~15" platters to run a back-up). Good times.

 

That, and my alarm clock.

[Mirage]

Oh good call on the alarm clock! I have had the same digital alarm clock with red LED's running non-stop except when moving and during brief electrical outages since the mid '80s.

[sloopy]

yeah i have a Heathkit clock my dad built in the early 70's, used it up to about 2-3 years ago, when the cord got a cut in it. it was on for 30+ years... and i still have it...

 

but can we limit this limited life talk around my ataris? i dont want them to know they should be retired and not working...

 

sloopy.

[kool kitty89]

There's plenty of gear out there that has run continuously for well over 20 years. Besides the chips themselves, a lot of it depends on the circuit design. In my previous job, we were running most of a newspaper with computers from the early '80s, with back-ups from the '70s. It was a well-built system, with many components, with breakdowns being very rare. The core memory never died. The back-up hard drives from the '70s were continuosly on, although not actively engaged (except on Saturday morning when we had to put in the next set of ~5x ~15" platters to run a back-up). Good times.

 

That, and my alarm clock.

 

Yes, and there's the fact that I mentioned earlier that ICs are pretty far down the list of failure in any given electronic device, or rather far down the list of failures due to age or normal wear and tear. (ie NOT due to using the wrong power supply, having a power supply blow and take out the system, have a power surge overload the PSU and do the same to the system, etc, etc -of course, some systems can be protected against some of those things as well, or therer's dying capacitors that may or may not lead to strain/destriction of ICs -may die and need to be replaced with minimal impact on ICs- or a voltage regulator going out and frying the system if fuses and/or diodes aren't used for preventative mesures -other things like ceramic capacitors, resistors, and various simple discrete components will be less prone to failure than complex ICs -there's also physical dmamage or corrosion to traces/pins separate from any of the above)

 

 

There's tons of examples of ICs (be it simple logic chips, large gate arrays, CPUs, ROM, RAM, etc) that are still working fine after 20-30 plus years of regular use. (engine computers in many early/mid 80s cars would be one such example too -you occassionally see those being replaced, but very often with the original parts)

However, there's plenty of other examples where the cars were scrapped for other reasons or out of ude for very long periods and thus don't given an accurate model to work with.

 

The Heavy Sixer VCS I have was probablly in regular use for some 10-15 years at my grandparents' house back in the late 70s into the mid 80s before it was put in storage in a loft in their garage for some 15+ years when my uncle found it and gave it to me ~2001. (though it's only been sparingly used since then) No components (not even the capacitors which are technically long past their life expectancy) have been replaced and it works perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean the expected ~20 year life wouldn't model farily accurately with a complete set of data. (how many VCSs are dead or were thrown away, and how many of those had IC failures?)

Edited February 15, 2011 by kool kitty89

[MEtalGuy66]

Yeah.. No shit.. heh...

 

I bought this at Rat-shack in 1991 (my junior year of Highschool) and its been runnign ever since! Ive never gotten rid of it because it has 2 separate alarms you can set, and I like that feature..

 

 

You can see it on http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com in the 1991 catalog. They offered the same clock in 92 and 93, but as you can see in the photos in the catalogs, in those years, they went to a significantly smaller LED digital display. 1991 was the only year they sold this clock with the larger LED display..

 

This is the only alarm clock I own, and my wife and I use it every day.. and I can personally testify to the fact that it's been in use non-stop since 1991 when I purchased it brand new..

 

Damn.. Its got *gasp* digital ICs in it! Not only does it have a digital clock IC, but it's got an LED digital display driver IC, and lots of discrete logic to debounce the pushbuttons on the front, and keep track of which mode the alarm is in, etc..

 

I guess I must have replaced all these ICs when I was in a drunken stupor one night, and therefor don't recall any of it..

[kool kitty89]

Chilly Willy, have you replaced any of the ICs in your original 400?

[Marius]

Usually my alarm clocks die because I hit them with a hammer...

 

In that case I agree with chilly willy the ic's do not live that long.

[Marius]

What I said is based on EXPERIENCE, not theory. I've seen enough "never been opened in 20 years" boxes that have parts with 2 year-old manufacturer's dates to take any claims of 20 years 24/7 usage with a grain of salt.

 

At first: nobody writes here that EVERY IC will last for more than 20 years. What I read is that it is sure possible that an IC last for 20-30 years without problems. So when you see that mobo and there exist 2year old components on it, that means that there are also IC's on it that did last longer... or do you mean that the mobo is completely exchanged?

 

And second: I have the feeling you are a bit on your own here. This is the Atari 8bit computer forum, and most of the people here (and especially in this thread I see a lot of Atari Veterans) are really active with their VERY OLD eqpuiment, which keeps running and running all the time. You speak about your EXPERIENCE, and the rest here doesn't?

 

Obviously experience can differ.

 

I stick with Fox-1's answer. I like it, and it makes me smile: It will die somewhere between 1.5 day, and 5 centuries. Isn't that nice?

 

It means I can not 'buy' security on this. Even when I have 244 of the same IC, I still won't have enough for even ONE YEAR if they all die after 1.5 day

 

Hehe. I think I have to learn to be less neurotic, and trust the 3 IC's I have for spares. When all the spares are died I'm sure I will NOT find a replacment (unless there are 40 pin microcontrollers that can 100% emulate any existing IC).

 

I agree with someone here in the thread that it is time for plan B then... using an emulator, but I think that the fun is over then, for me...

 

Thank you all for the contribution,...

 

When someone has an answer about the point about a microcontroller emulating a 68B21, I would be glad.

 

Thanks

M.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

Usually my alarm clocks die because I hit them with a hammer...

 

I know what you mean. I got better results after having moved my bed from the tool shed to the sleeping room.

 

And second: I have the feeling you are a bit on your own here.

 

Looks like he is. Willy can't, or doesn't want to, be convinced, or is the only one with bad experiences, which is o.k. for me. When I look at my alarm clock, old CB radio's (President Zachary T/Madison, anyone?), amplifier and CP/M computers, all pre- and early-80's, I'm just glad he's wrong.

[HiassofT]

When someone has an answer about the point about a microcontroller emulating a 68B21, I would be glad.

Well, you'd use a CPLD (or FPGA) for that, not a microcontroller (which is usually too slow). People already recreated the 6520/6821/6532, several UARTs etc. in VHDL so you'd just start your synthesis tool, program your PLD and replace the broken chip. If you are not good at soldering fine-pitch ICs you can buy readymade boards with 40-pin DIP pinout and a PLD/FPGA on it, for example the GODIL (OK, the GODIL is overkill for a simple 6520/6821 but the point is it's quite easy to replace broken standard chips).

 

Of course, replacing custom chips that haven't been recreated in VHDL yet is not that simple...

 

so long,

 

Hias

[+rdemming]

For that matter, removing the RF shielding (where not integral) can be beneficial as well.

 

Removing the RF shielding would however increase the chance of a burn-out when we will be hit by a solar-flare during the next high in solar activity

So I would leave the shielding on

 

Robert

[Chilly Willy]

...and, just where would someone get a two year-old 'mobo'?

 

There are lots of places online where you can get refurbished mobos for nearly any computer. They usually stick their own stickers on the boards to let you know when it was worked on. That's what I'm referring to when speaking of computers that clearly haven't been made in 20 years.

 

Do you have any instances where IC products are at EOL due to chip degradation in anything, anywhere? Mass failures of 2114s?

 

Chips haven't been around long enough for them to be bad just while sitting in a bin. The 2 to 20 years I mentioned was for ACTIVE systems (depending on how actively they are used). I said 100 years was doubtful sitting in a bin, so maybe we'll see in another 60 to 80 years if I'm right on that.

[kool kitty89]

...and, just where would someone get a two year-old 'mobo'?

 

There are lots of places online where you can get refurbished mobos for nearly any computer. They usually stick their own stickers on the boards to let you know when it was worked on. That's what I'm referring to when speaking of computers that clearly haven't been made in 20 years.

 

Do you have any instances where IC products are at EOL due to chip degradation in anything, anywhere? Mass failures of 2114s?

 

Chips haven't been around long enough for them to be bad just while sitting in a bin. The 2 to 20 years I mentioned was for ACTIVE systems (depending on how actively they are used). I said 100 years was doubtful sitting in a bin, so maybe we'll see in another 60 to 80 years if I'm right on that.

And again, there's a lot of other factors that will kill ICs in heavy active/intermittent use that are far more likely than gradual degradation of the interconnect.

 

Power surges, bad power supplies, bad capacitors, bad voltage regulators, etc, etc. (and even for cases where such components don't take out ICs when they go bad, they may put strain on the system that will shorten the life of the ICs)

 

#1 no no on building you own PC is using a cheap power supply. (you can go cheap on almost anything else and not risk total failure of the system, but a cheap/crappy PSU can fry the whole system when it dies -graphics card, HDD, motherboard chipset, etc)

 

That's also one of the problems with the Atari XE computers: cheap power supplies that can die and take out the computer when they do. (and unlike other A8 models, the XE PSUs actually have regulated 5V DC output, so the system isn't regulating that or protecting against surges -you could mod the system with some fuses and possibly diodes to help protect against that though)

 

Hmm, or does the 800/600XL also use regulated 5V DC? (it uses the same power connector, so that would be dangerous if they weren't compatible)

I know the 400/800/1200 used ~9V AC supplies that were rectified and regulated to 5V internally. (rather like the NES)

[MEtalGuy66]

YEah some of the XE series shit is definitely cheap..

 

But it's not the fact that the power regulation is done external that is the problem.. It's the fact that the PSU (that came with the xe) happens to be a cheap POS.. ATARI made a range of XL/XE PSUs and some of them are pretty decent.. The really large ones with the vents are actually pretty damned decent.. Ive never seen one "Die young" (or more importantly, damage a machine when it DID fail.) Some of the smaller, epoxy-filled-brick designs are famous for that.

 

The XE does have a series of diodes and dampning caps on the power input circuits, btw.

 

Yes, the entire XL/XE series does use pin compatable power-inputs (with the exception of the 1200XL, as you stated.)

 

 

ALL Ataris (and the NES for that matter) use dirt-simple PSU circuits when you compare them with those of modern PCs. The earlier stuff (400/800/1200XL) was definitely more heavy-duty as far as some of the components used.. (Thats why its a shame when some fuktard ripps that stuff out and replaces it with a $4.99 tiawanese 5v wal-wart, and sells it to people.) But building a power supply circuit more complex doesnt alwayse produce a "better" output.. The 5vdc output of the power circuits on all my ATARIs with stock PSU looks pretty damn "flat" on my 1ghz digital scope.. As far as 80s consumer grade stuff goes, they are at least "decent" in my estimation.. (that is until they fail).. If you wanna add surge supression and all kinds of other power-conditioning features in the name of increasing the life of the ICs, I guess you could use an high dollar modern PC PSU instead. And then run it off a conditioned AC power source..

Edited February 16, 2011 by MEtalGuy66