The Co Co has some funny rip offs

[rxd]

I was really into the Coco back in the day. It had some really good games, not as many as the Atari or Commadore but it was a far superior computer. The games could range from lousy to quite good, but as a computer it was second to none. I took my original Coco to college with me and wrote all my papers on it. If any of my buddies wanted to use my word processor the cost was a couple of pitchers of beer in the campus pub. I had a great word processor and spell checker program for it. Nowhere else on the entire campus was there a better word processing system, including the computer department and administrative office. Needless to say I got plenty of free beer while I was there...

 

Was it VIP Writer? I think I had a copy of that for school projects as well. Used to print them out on my old DMP-105 printer. Very nice software

 

Yes, I think it was. It used the Coco's hires graphics mode and was great. I had both VIP Writer and VIP Speller. It was pretty pricey for back then butbwascworth every penny.

[rxd]

Looks like I need VIP Writer for my posts here...

[johnny_boy]

Folks should calm the heck down and check the facts about the Coco 3 DK port. It basically re-uses a bunch of the original logic code as much as it can. Don't get me wrong, it's still an amazing feat, and the machine code conversion must've demanded a fair amount of skill, but it's not 100% original programming, like for example DK for the Atari 800 is. You simply can't compare it to other computer ports. The 80's port authors didn't have access to the original arcade code either, plus had to do with the more limited public knowledge of their platform's hardware capability as known at the time.

 

http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/dk/index.html

[JamesD]

Folks should calm the heck down and check the facts about the Coco 3 DK port. It basically re-uses a bunch of the original logic code as much as it can. Don't get me wrong, it's still an amazing feat, and the machine code conversion must've demanded a fair amount of skill, but it's not 100% original programming, like for example DK for the Atari 800 is. You simply can't compare it to other computer ports. The 80's port authors didn't have access to the original arcade code either, plus had to do with the more limited public knowledge of their platform's hardware capability as known at the time.

 

http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/dk/index.html

Calm down and check the facts? I didn't notice any real emotional argument there. Me thinks someone is being defensive.

 

The CoCo 3 DK port does follow the Z80 logic... to a point. Keep in mind Donkey Kong didn't just use a different CPU, it had very different hardware as well. I'm sure many optimizations were possible thanks to the 6809, and it is still all original 6809 code so I don't agree with the not 100% original programming.

 

FWIW, even if the Atari engineers had access to the Z80 code for the original arcade game, the graphics and sound probably wouldn't be as close to the arcade as the CoCo 3 version. It took a lot of RAM for all the 6809 code, graphics, and sound for the CoCo 3 port. As discussed in another topic, the 6502 would probably require 50% more code to do the same thing as the 6809. It wasn't even feasible to create a cartridge that played just like the arcade back in the day just due to memory limitations.

Now, you could probably come much closer, but you would be pushing the envelope on RAM, speed, sound, and graphics.

 

As for can't compare the two... why not? Because it wouldn't be favorable to the Atari? What is the Atari DK ROM size? 8K? 16K? The CoCo version requires 512K RAM. Sure the CoCo 3 version looks and plays pretty much like the arcade... but Atari DK is an amazing feat to fit in that size ROM.

[+save2600]

As for can't compare the two... why not? Because it wouldn't be favorable to the Atari? What is the Atari DK ROM size? 8K? 16K? The CoCo version requires 512K RAM.

I bet a majority of that RAM usage is taken up by the sound samples. Wonder if it had been programmed to utilize the built sounds of the Coco 3, how much it would really require.

 

 

 

[JamesD]

As for can't compare the two... why not? Because it wouldn't be favorable to the Atari? What is the Atari DK ROM size? 8K? 16K? The CoCo version requires 512K RAM.

I bet a majority of that RAM usage is taken up by the sound samples. Wonder if it had been programmed to utilize the built sounds of the Coco 3, how much it would really require.

All the CoCos use a DAC for sound, so there is no built in sound except samples.

[AtariLeaf]

Folks should calm the heck down and check the facts about the Coco 3 DK port. It basically re-uses a bunch of the original logic code as much as it can. Don't get me wrong, it's still an amazing feat, and the machine code conversion must've demanded a fair amount of skill, but it's not 100% original programming, like for example DK for the Atari 800 is. You simply can't compare it to other computer ports. The 80's port authors didn't have access to the original arcade code either, plus had to do with the more limited public knowledge of their platform's hardware capability as known at the time.

 

http://www.axess.com...k/dk/index.html

 

Isn't this kind of like seeing an amazing magic trick and then complaining about how the magician did it?

Edited March 4, 2011 by AtariLeaf

[JamesD]

As for can't compare the two... why not? Because it wouldn't be favorable to the Atari? What is the Atari DK ROM size? 8K? 16K? The CoCo version requires 512K RAM.

I bet a majority of that RAM usage is taken up by the sound samples. Wonder if it had been programmed to utilize the built sounds of the Coco 3, how much it would really require.

All the CoCos use a DAC for sound, so there is no built in sound except samples.

Well... that isn't totally correct. You can generate sounds without digitized samples. But you are creating the waveforms through a program rather than just dumping out the sampled data.

[AtariLeaf]

You know what, I don't care how it was accomplished. I just went and hooked up my 512K Coco 3 to drivewire and played Donkey Kong and its absolutely incredible. I don't care what magic tricks he used to do it. It's pure genius and I wish everyone had an opportunity to try this on real coco hardware. Its a beautiful experience

 

I wonder if Sockmaster will do it with other arcade games? If Donkey Kong can be done, I'm sure other games from that time period could be emulated on the coco 3.

[johnny_boy]

JamesD and AtariLeaf,

 

My last comment seems to have been interpreted as a denigration of the Coco port. I tried to show it proper respect, but on the other hand, I was indeed a bit ticked off by the way it was so quickly categorized as a port on the same level as other computer platforms. It should not remove any of the proper merit it deserves. It simply plays by different rules. The flexibility of the Coco hardware deserves special mentions for enabling such a flawless port.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong in expressing a feeling of annoyance, as long as it is done with the necessary articulation of opinion, and proper civility. It becomes a problem when emotions flare up into intense arguments and personal attacks. This forum has had too many potent threads ruined in such a juvenile fashion in the last few months. I do not wish to be a part of this problem.

[AtariLeaf]

JamesD and AtariLeaf,

 

My last comment seems to have been interpreted as a denigration of the Coco port. I tried to show it proper respect, but on the other hand, I was indeed a bit ticked off by the way it was so quickly categorized as a port on the same level as other computer platforms. It should not remove any of the proper merit it deserves. It simply plays by different rules. The flexibility of the Coco hardware deserves special mentions for enabling such a flawless port.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong in expressing a feeling of annoyance, as long as it is done with the necessary articulation of opinion, and proper civility. It becomes a problem when emotions flare up into intense arguments and personal attacks. This forum has had too many potent threads ruined in such a juvenile fashion in the last few months. I do not wish to be a part of this problem.

 

I don't think anyone is upset although I'm curious why you'd be "ticked off" by people calling it a port and maybe I was one of them but its just a turn of phrase and not a literal statement.

 

Personally I think its more of a feat to emulate an arcade machine that's more powerful than the system emulating it than to build an impressive port with original code.

[Briza1]

But how do they play? I've seen a lot of CoCo knock off games that look good but play like crap.

 

Tempest

 

 

G'Day Tempest.

 

Most Games for the coco 3 were good knock offs. Revenge off the mutant miner(miner2049) looks and plays like the other versions on other platforms that I have had the pleasure of playing.

Sinistarr well it is a good clone off the arcade version graphics wise, Only thing that lets it down is the game speed which I found was a tad slow, But other then that it is still quite enjoyable to play.

Pac-man by Nick Marentas is a very good knock off, Best Pac-man version on the coco's by far. And I always hated Pac-man always preferred Donkey Kong back in the early 80's lol. Nick did this game by playing the arcade version and then programming what could be done on the coco 3.

Donkey Kong by Sock Master no need to say what it is like, Play the original arcade and then play it on the coco 3 same Nostalga feelings that is how good it is.

Superpitfall is a well done clone. Only bad thing about it is the game play is slow lol, When u jump u have time to blow your nose before it lands, But you play the tweaked up version that Sock did by recoding it to use the 6309 native mode and it rocks.

Robocop and Predator don't even bother they are crappy ports and not worth looking at, tempest u have played 1 off these versions and like me gave up after 30secs because they are so lame lol.

Mindroll is a good port done by Jesse Taylor, I found it quite enjoyable.

Rad Warrior by Jesse is a awesome port, It was a very well done port. If he had more time to program it, He may have done a better job in some areas relating to graphics.

Now another awesome knock off would be Marble Madness by Oblique Triad it looks and plays like the original on the Amiga etc. It is the 1st game to use the Hardware Scrolling feature.

Gauntelet 2 is a very well done port by Diecom. Close to the arcade in some areas and not so in some.

Warrior King well either you like it or don't, I like it but found the Joystick controls annoying, But overall it is a very nice game. But does tend to pause sometimes when it plays sounds. But if I am correct it was Glen's 1st attempt at doing a Arcade quality game on the coco 3, That is why Kyum gai was good when he did it because he learned how to use the FIRQ to do the sound effects better. But graphic wise and game play it is a very well done game.

Thelda well I found it quite fun to play, But it did lack some things compared to the Nes version, Graphics were good, Lacked background music and some sprite movement could have been better tho.

Contras it was a good knock off, Shame it lacked the bonus weapons etc and did not use more off the Nes scenes in it.

Juniors revenge(Donkey Kong Jr) is a really good knock off, Graphics and game play are there, Would love to see Sock port the arcade version over to the coco 3 and make it both DK versions ported over.

Sure I have missed a few other games, But I think you get the picture Tempest on most knock offs done either by Tandy or 3rd party, 3rd Party stuff tended to be a hell of a lot better then anything Tandy brought out.

 

laters

 

Briza

[Charlie_]

Also worth mentioning is that all the Sierra AIG games, King's Quest 1 -4, Space Quests, Leisure Suit Larry, Etc. have been ported to the coco3. A 512K coco3 with a 360K disk drive is a powerful little 8-bit machine.

[AtariLeaf]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

[Briza1]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

G'Day Atarileaf.

 

By what I have been hearing off late, Some people are working on a way to get Drivewire or the Sd cards to work with those games. Still can't see why they can't re-code the FDC registers to be re-routed to a section on the cards that holds the FDC rom codes or even Hi-Jack the line that normally goes to real hardware to be re-routed to the Sd or drivewire routines etc. Since I can see it being possible that. Even if it was only the Read Seek routines and leave the rest alone. As not a lot off games actually saved scores etc in RSdos. Mainly OS-9 games used the write etc.

 

laters

 

Briza

[AtariLeaf]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

G'Day Atarileaf.

 

By what I have been hearing off late, Some people are working on a way to get Drivewire or the Sd cards to work with those games. Still can't see why they can't re-code the FDC registers to be re-routed to a section on the cards that holds the FDC rom codes or even Hi-Jack the line that normally goes to real hardware to be re-routed to the Sd or drivewire routines etc. Since I can see it being possible that. Even if it was only the Read Seek routines and leave the rest alone. As not a lot off games actually saved scores etc in RSdos. Mainly OS-9 games used the write etc.

 

laters

 

Briza

 

That would be great. Isn't Steve Bjork working on something similar but completely separate from drivewire and Roger's SD Pack? I'll have to check the coco mailing list again as I'm sure I read something about it there.

 

EDIT - yes in this thread

Edited March 8, 2011 by AtariLeaf

[Briza1]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

G'Day Atarileaf.

 

By what I have been hearing off late, Some people are working on a way to get Drivewire or the Sd cards to work with those games. Still can't see why they can't re-code the FDC registers to be re-routed to a section on the cards that holds the FDC rom codes or even Hi-Jack the line that normally goes to real hardware to be re-routed to the Sd or drivewire routines etc. Since I can see it being possible that. Even if it was only the Read Seek routines and leave the rest alone. As not a lot off games actually saved scores etc in RSdos. Mainly OS-9 games used the write etc.

 

laters

 

Briza

 

That would be great. Isn't Steve Bjork working on something similar but completely separate from drivewire and Roger's SD Pack? I'll have to check the coco mailing list again as I'm sure I read something about it there.

 

EDIT - yes in this thread

 

Yeah Steve is working on a hardware based FDC device, while Roger is working on getting his SD pack too work with games that use the FDC rom routines. If anyone can work out something that would be Roger. No idea what mark or Boisy are doing about Drive-wire.

 

laters

 

Briza

[potatohead]

I cry foul... no way that's the Coco 3 playing Donkey Kong in that vid!

 

It is. Ported straight from the original Z80 code.

 

Some of that machine has not yet been tapped. On a NTSC TV, you get one byte per pixel / almost 256 colors (230 or so), with several sets of colors to choose from, depending on what you do with the 16 colors and artifacting that happens on NTSC TV's.

 

I've got some screenies and details in my blog. No time at present, but... one day, I would like to code on it. One byte / pixel + 6809 is sweet.

 

One port I've not played yet is "Rescue on Fractalus" Anyone give that a go yet? I think there is a image of it on my micro-sd cart, but not sure...

 

Re: Ports.

 

Yeah, I hear both sides on that. Truth is, cramming DK into the older hardware, lesser CPU and RAM is a different thing. Pretty easy to just appreciate them for what they are.

 

CoCo 3 is a 8 bitter, and IMHO, the most powerful one, but it did come late in the cycle too.

 

I really like the machine personally, and it's right next to my Atari 800. Wish I had gotten hold of a 3 earlier. Good friend had a 2, and we used to program stuff on them. Funny. The Atari had the sprites and colors, but the 2 had that nice CPU... Good times. Would have been brilliant to combine both back then.

Edited March 8, 2011 by potatohead

[AtariLeaf]

 

 

One port I've not played yet is "Rescue on Fractalus" Anyone give that a go yet? I think there is a image of it on my micro-sd cart, but not sure...

 

 

That was actually the first port of RoF I ever played and I liked it a lot. I think it holds up very well to the other ports of the time.

[jamesk]

Wow.. good thing those clone games have a copyright notice. Otherwise people might make clones of the clones and sell them.

[Charlie_]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

You can use any standard 360K drive in an external case with power supply. The coco uses standard PC drives. Another advantage the coco has. All you would need is an FD-501 or FD-502 disk controller. You should be able to get one of those easily. The drive simply interfaces with the controller via the standard ribbon cable just like inside a pc.

 

You can use 180K single sided drives too. I have a few cases with those drives in them. They are good for RSDOS but I really recommend a 360K drive as OS9 (Nitros9) stuff fits better on a those disks. Like Kings Quest 1 on a single disk. Or Kings Quest 2 on 2 disks.

[AtariLeaf]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

You can use any standard 360K drive in an external case with power supply. The coco uses standard PC drives. Another advantage the coco has. All you would need is an FD-501 or FD-502 disk controller. You should be able to get one of those easily. The drive simply interfaces with the controller via the standard ribbon cable just like inside a pc.

 

You can use 180K single sided drives too. I have a few cases with those drives in them. They are good for RSDOS but I really recommend a 360K drive as OS9 (Nitros9) stuff fits better on a those disks. Like Kings Quest 1 on a single disk. Or Kings Quest 2 on 2 disks.

 

Hey good to know thanks. I'll keep an eye out for the disk controllers and go from there.

Is there a difference between the FD-501 and 502 and is one preferable to the other?

[Charlie_]

I wish I could find a disk drive. Hard to come by and when they show up on ebay they go pretty high (and shipping is a lot, they're heavy). Its too bad because drivewire doesn't work with all coco 3 games because of the disk access routines some need.

 

You can use any standard 360K drive in an external case with power supply. The coco uses standard PC drives. Another advantage the coco has. All you would need is an FD-501 or FD-502 disk controller. You should be able to get one of those easily. The drive simply interfaces with the controller via the standard ribbon cable just like inside a pc.

 

You can use 180K single sided drives too. I have a few cases with those drives in them. They are good for RSDOS but I really recommend a 360K drive as OS9 (Nitros9) stuff fits better on a those disks. Like Kings Quest 1 on a single disk. Or Kings Quest 2 on 2 disks.

 

Hey good to know thanks. I'll keep an eye out for the disk controllers and go from there.

Is there a difference between the FD-501 and 502 and is one preferable to the other?

 

The FD-502 has gold contacts and is shorter. Sticks out of the coco less. The FD-501 works the same as far as I know. I have both but have a FD-501 in my current setup. I have been using it for years.

[JamesD]

You can also use 720K 3.5" disk drives but you'll need an adapter or custom cable to attach one. You'll also need to transfer software over to the disks. I used an old CD-ROM case/power supply for mine and a 3.5" to 5.25" adapter so it would fit.

I transfered as many of my old disks as I could.

 

You won't get full capacity from BASIC since it is set up for single sided 35 track drives. You could use a patched DOS ROM to access more or use OS-9 or FLEX if you configure them correctly and have the proper cable setup.

<edit>

The oldest disk controller doesn't work in a CoCo 3 without a multipack interface because it requires 12v. It is also larger than the later controllers.

The 501 has gold edge connectors and the 502 doesn't.

Edited March 8, 2011 by JamesD

[The Usotsuki]

Steve Bjork's still working with the CoCo after all these years, eh?