Total number of A8 units sold worldwide = ?

[svenski]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

 

I agree with you re C64 sales starting slowly - it took a while for the thing to build up speed. The problem with trying to come up with numbers is that different markets had products that peaked at different times, had different shelf lives and one product may have dominated the French market but been as popular as stale bread in the UK - as an example.

 

Oh, and Europe can't be held responsible for America succumbing to a nasty grey Japanese console

[+Philsan]

Atari certainly wasn't leading the market in 1980 and 1981, you would've seen lots more software support otherwise.

In 1980 it's not sure, but in 1981 and 1982 certainly.

Regarding software, I don't think in 1980 and 1981 plenty of shops existed full of software for other computers.

 

Have you read Jeremy Reiner's figures?

 

If you read american computer magazines of those years (f.e. Compute!) you'll see that Atari computers had a lot of space.

 

In your opinion, which computer was the leader of the market if not Atari?

[Mclaneinc]

Well in the early days in London the Atari was a clear winner, I'm not saying it lasted but my lot Maplin were an Atari specialist and there's no way the two founders of Maplin would have put their early cash into anything other than a safe bet at the time, in those days they were more or less electronic components only until the Atari range.

 

I suspect for a short but clear time Atari worldwide were a top seller in the market only to be trounced by Spectrum and CBM here in the UK although I find the C64 numbers a bit OTT, shave at least 5m off.

 

Sort of good news, bad news...

 

Good news..Atari computers were a market leader at one point..

 

Bad news...It didn't last in the total figures scheme of things..

[JamesD]

So far I agree with all comments.

 

The only point completely wrong is

Early Atari sales were disappointing

(perhaps I didn't get it right).

Atari 400/800 were leader of the market in 1980-1982 (till C64 advent) so early Atari sales weren't disappointing at all.

Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean it isn't true.

You can read early issues of MICRO and find comments that back that up. Atari management was frustrated because they felt they had the best machine but it hadn't translated into the sales they expected.

 

Atari released sales figures in the early years and Jeremy Reimer gathered it from stockholder reports (check the earlier links).

100 thousand in 1979

200 thousand in 1980

300 thousand in 1981

 

That's less than the TRS-80 Model I/III the first 2 years (including a year you claim Atari was the sales leader) and not much more than the Model I/III in '81. If the CoCo was outselling the Model I (according to Tandy it did), then Atari might not have outsold the CoCo in '81... meaning Atari might not have been the market leader even then.

 

It wasn't until '82 that sales took off with 600 thousand sold, dropping back to 500 thousand in '83.

C64 sales dwarfed the Atari's in '83 and it was also outsold by PCs... they pretty much chopped Atari's "leader" role off after only a year or two at best.

Atari was outsold by the PC, Apple II, Mac, and C64 in '84 but that's just machines who's sales figures were released... still, things could only get worse as more capable machines hit the market.

If Atari sold around 4 Million machines total, they were probably selling under 500 thousand a year at that point.

 

For what should have been the dominant 8 bit machine, I'd say that's pretty disappointing, especially in the first 3 years which would qualify as early.

[JamesD]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

The Apple II sold over a million in '84, how could the C64 not outsell it?

Edited June 19, 2011 by JamesD

[www.atarimania.com]

Well, I read every single issue of Compute! and SoftSide as well as most of Creative Computing to compile the Atarimania database. As much as I hate to say it, the Apple ][ and even TRS-80 trounced the Atari in terms of software support in 1980-81, although things started to change in 1982.

 

I believe people have a wrong perception of the Apple ][ and TRS-80 because there is nothing like GB64, WoS or Atarimania for the two platforms but myriads of titles were available.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[JamesD]

I should point out before the fanboys chime in again about Commodore lying about sales.

Publicly traded companies are audited regularly and the SEC would treat a company lying to it's stockholders rather harshly.

It's pretty difficult to publish fake sales figures without the money in your accounts to support them.

[oky2000]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

The Apple II sold over a million in '84, how could the C64 not outsell it?

 

C64 sold 17+ million, with C128 4.5 million sales that is nearly 22 million. Dwarfs the total sales of Amiga which in 16bit chipset form technically trounced all rivals except 32bit Acorn ARM units. C64 exaggerated figures=30+ million.

 

I have mags from 81/82 praising the 800 48k technically but commenting on high pricing, so I guess stock dumped models by Jack like 800XL sold for £99 would be most popular here (UK) as 400/800 cost a lot and XE was overshadowed by 130ST vaporware? Price was an issue in early 80s as was small tape based games library, disk and cart systems not a big seller in UK.

 

NES failed here and most of EU. £9.99 C64 game vs £39.99 NES and many more games (1000s vs 10s) It was a blip on the radar.

Edited June 19, 2011 by oky2000

[+Philsan]

Well, I read every single issue of Compute! and SoftSide as well as most of Creative Computing to compile the Atarimania database. As much as I hate to say it, the Apple ][ and even TRS-80 trounced the Atari in terms of software support in 1980-81, although things started to change in 1982.

 

I believe people have a wrong perception of the Apple ][ and TRS-80 because there is nothing like GB64, WoS or Atarimania for the two platforms but myriads of titles were available.

If we look here

http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/covers/1981.php

we see that Atari 8 and Apple were strong in those years.

But Atari 800 and mostly Atari 400 were cheaper than Apple II so surely they sold more computers.

Perhaps Apple II had more software (it could be because AII is a 1977 computer) but unless all Americans were rich it's impossible that Apple II outsold A8 in 1981-1982.

[+Philsan]

James, I am talking about A8 early years, so 1979, 1980, 1981 and 1982 (A8 last year was 1991).

1979: obviously A8 came out in november so it wasn't leader of the market in that year.

1980: according to Reimer's figures, A8 200 thousand, TRS-80 225 thousand so very close numbers (I already replied to Atari Frog that the leadership is unsure for that year)

1981: according to Reimer's figures, A8 300 thousand, TRS-80 225 thousand; if you read Compute`s magazines you'll agree that A8 was more popular.

1982: according to Reimer's figures, A8 600 thousand, TRS-80 300 thousand, Apple II 279 thousand, C64 200 thousand. I think averyone agrees A8 was the leader in this year.

 

C64 sales dwarfed the Atari's in '83 and it was also outsold by PCs... they pretty much chopped Atari's "leader" role off after only a year or two at best.

Atari was outsold by the PC, Apple II, Mac, and C64 in '84 but that's just machines who's sales figures were released... still, things could only get worse as more capable machines hit the market.

 

No one in this thread wrote that A8 was leader of the market in the following years.

No one in this thread wrote that A8 is the more capable machine.

It's not a "vs." thread!

[high voltage]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

 

Yes, as did many other companies, I already mentioned, Nintendo did, someone else here mentioned Apple did too, so your 'oh so honest sweet company' Commodore didn't? You are very naive.

[oky2000]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

 

Yes, as did many other companies, I already mentioned, Nintendo did, someone else here mentioned Apple did too, so your 'oh so honest sweet company' Commodore didn't? You are very naive.

Sales figures like those are in corporate accounts sent to IRS/IR/Tax offices world wide. Not only is it stupid but also illegal. Doubting official annual corporate accounts is naive. These are not press releases.

[www.atarimania.com]

The average Joe would barely consider the Atari 400 or 800 in 1980 or 1981. He'd choose or be recommended the TRS-80 and its userbase, distribution network and software support. The 400 or 800 were a bit too exotic, not serious enough compared to the competition and, anyway, clashed with Atari's other machine, the VCS, for gaming.

 

Small businesses, laboratories and schools also used Apple, TRS-80 and even Commodore PET computers, which probably helped. Atari, as a newcomer, was on its own and had much less presence. Unless you were a bit geeky or well-informed, the Atari was almost never the number one choice in the early days.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[high voltage]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

 

Yes, as did many other companies, I already mentioned, Nintendo did, someone else here mentioned Apple did too, so your 'oh so honest sweet company' Commodore didn't? You are very naive.

Sales figures like those are in corporate accounts sent to IRS/IR/Tax offices world wide. Not only is it stupid but also illegal. Doubting official annual corporate accounts is naive. These are not press releases.

 

There are criminals working in tax offices, unless of course, crime doesn't happen in the USA. Or you just send in the A-Team.....

[+Philsan]

The average Joe would barely consider the Atari 400 or 800 in 1980 or 1981. He'd choose or be recommended the TRS-80 and its userbase, distribution network and software support. The 400 or 800 were a bit too exotic, not serious enough compared to the competition and, anyway, clashed with Atari's other machine, the VCS, for gaming.

 

Small businesses, laboratories and schools also used Apple, TRS-80 and even Commodore PET computers, which probably helped. Atari, as a newcomer, was on its own and had much less presence. Unless you were a bit geeky or well-informed, the Atari was almost never the number one choice in the early days.

If for early days we consider 1979 and 1980, I can agree.

If we consider 1981 and 1982, I don't agree. If Compute! supported A8 platform strongly in 1981 and 1982, that means A8 had a big installed base.

[sloopy]

numbers were usually unit produced... and there is no secret burial ground of atari equipment.. or apple for that matter...

 

 

sloopy.

[atarian63]

I'd say, taking exaggeration into account, the the C64 sold more like 1.5 mill between 83 - 86, especially in 83, C64 sales were just starting. I mean if they (some Jeremy guy and his ACTUAL sales figures, yeah sure) say the C64 sold 2 mill a year during that time, you can be sure it was ACTUALLY less.

And by 88 NES ruled the American way, so bye bye C64.

So you are saying Commodore lied to stockholders and broke the law?

 

The Apple II sold over a million in '84, how could the C64 not outsell it?

 

C64 sold 17+ million, with C128 4.5 million sales that is nearly 22 million. Dwarfs the total sales of Amiga which in 16bit chipset form technically trounced all rivals except 32bit Acorn ARM units. C64 exaggerated figures=30+ million.

 

I have mags from 81/82 praising the 800 48k technically but commenting on high pricing, so I guess stock dumped models by Jack like 800XL sold for £99 would be most popular here (UK) as 400/800 cost a lot and XE was overshadowed by 130ST vaporware? Price was an issue in early 80s as was small tape based games library, disk and cart systems not a big seller in UK.

 

NES failed here and most of EU. £9.99 C64 game vs £39.99 NES and many more games (1000s vs 10s) It was a blip on the radar.

I would have to take issue with that amiga 16 bit statement at least in the USA 1985 to 1989, Atari ST easily outsold Amiga 2-1, only Atari shipping to europe instead of the USa changed that.

[atarian63]

The average Joe would barely consider the Atari 400 or 800 in 1980 or 1981. He'd choose or be recommended the TRS-80 and its userbase, distribution network and software support. The 400 or 800 were a bit too exotic, not serious enough compared to the competition and, anyway, clashed with Atari's other machine, the VCS, for gaming.

 

Small businesses, laboratories and schools also used Apple, TRS-80 and even Commodore PET computers, which probably helped. Atari, as a newcomer, was on its own and had much less presence. Unless you were a bit geeky or well-informed, the Atari was almost never the number one choice in the early days.

If for early days we consider 1979 and 1980, I can agree.

If we consider 1981 and 1982, I don't agree. If Compute! supported A8 platform strongly in 1981 and 1982, that means A8 had a big installed base.

Agreed, You almost never saw a PET anywhere (USA) or TRS unless you happened to be in radio shack. Maybe we are talking retail or consumer here. Atari was much much more visable, see a local Major retailer of the day (Sears) Montgomery ward etc. No TRS 80 or PET there.

[www.atarimania.com]

Yes, people really started buying Atari computers in 1981 but that doesn't mean it was yet THE driving force that year, either.

Compute! supported the platform and SoftSide added an Atari column as well. Magazines such as Electronic Games and Computer Gaming World probably helped boost sales. However, coverage in bigger publications such as Byte and even Creative Computing certainly doesn't reflect that the Atari was at the number one spot in 1981, especially considering the still feeble software support and relatively small amount of articles.

 

On the subject of Atari computers being sold in department stores... Well, also proves my point that Atari had two toys competing in the same place and maybe confusing the new user while other people would buy a "serious" computer somewhere else.

 

As for the PET, you could practically only see them in schools, labs or small businesses. It was still WAY bigger than the Atari in 1980 and early 1981 at least.

 

--

Atari Frog

http://www.atarimania.com

[JamesD]

James, I am talking about A8 early years, so 1979, 1980, 1981 and 1982 (A8 last year was 1991).

And I quoted sales figures from those years. The CoCo's last year was 1992... so?

 

1979: obviously A8 came out in november so it wasn't leader of the market in that year.

1980: according to Reimer's figures, A8 200 thousand, TRS-80 225 thousand so very close numbers (I already replied to Atari Frog that the leadership is unsure for that year)

Unsure? 225 thousand minus 200 thousand... And that was just Model I/III sales, not *all* TRS-80s.

 

1981: according to Reimer's figures, A8 300 thousand, TRS-80 225 thousand;

Check the numbers again... TRS-80 Model I/III was 250K in '81.

 

If the CoCo outsold the Model I/III like Radio Shack said, then Radio Shack definitely sold over 500K total machines and and Radio Shack had the largest market share. Even if only 65K CoCo machines sold, Radio Shack was the market leader and that doesn't count the Model II sales. I think it's safe to say the CoCo sold more than that machines.

And like I said, the CoCo supposedly outsold the Model I/III so it's possible it sold over 300K by itself that year. But we'll probably never know.

 

if you read Compute`s magazines you'll agree that A8 was more popular.

Compute decides what is popular? Maybe within it's subscriber base but that's about it.

 

Compute started as a 6502 machine magazine, that kinda biases things in the first place. Compute barely supported the CoCo and Compute didn't support the TRS-80 Model I/III at all. What it did published for the CoCo was absolute garbage. I don't think they published a single Extended Basic program. Nobody with any TRS-80 would subscribe for that. Apple also had better support elsewhere (Nibble, InCider, Softside, A+, etc...) and Apple owners probably saw little reason to subscribe to Compute. And with the C64 being introduced later it would take time for C64 owners to build up subscription numbers. On top of that, 4 C64 mags were introduced in '84 to compete with Compute. How many Atari only magazines were there in the first few years of it's life? Analog? Of coarse the Atari would be more popular with Compute's subscribers in early years.

 

The TRS-80's (Z80 and 6809 based) had many supporting magazines. The CoCo alone had at least 4 dedicated magazines (Color Computer News, Rainbow, Hot CoCo, Color Computer Magazine), and regular support in AT LEAST 8 others (80 Micro, MICRO, 80 US, Compute, 68 Micro Journal, The World Of 68 Micros, Family Computing, MICRO-80, etc...). At least two of the magazines dedicated to the CoCo were bought out by Compute in an attempt to attract their readers but support wasn't anywhere near what people were used to so I doubt anybody resubscribed after their forced subscriptions ran out.

 

Rainbow magazine only supported the CoCo and it had around 350 pages / issue by '84. Compute had around the same number of pages in the months before Christmas but it supported multiple machines (multiple versions of the same program in every issue) where Rainbow was filled with programs for one machine. Rainbow was available for over 12 years. Antic, Analog, and Ahoy didn't last that long, not even Compute lasted as long as Rainbow and Compute had focused a lot of it's support on PCs in later days to try to keep going. I think the only other 8 bit magazine to last that long was Nibble for the Apple II and it lasted around 12 1/2 years.

 

But does that give us any indication of popularity of a machine?

 

1982: according to Reimer's figures, A8 600 thousand, TRS-80 300 thousand, Apple II 279 thousand, C64 200 thousand. I think averyone agrees A8 was the leader in this year.

And I think people can tell I recognized the Atari outsold everything that year. However, if the TRS-80 Model I/III sold 300 thousand machines and the CoCo was Tandy's top seller for it's entire life as Radio Shack indicated... Radio Shack would have sold more machines and would have still had the largest market share. But I wasn't going to bring that up unless you got testy.

 

C64 sales dwarfed the Atari's in '83 and it was also outsold by PCs... they pretty much chopped Atari's "leader" role off after only a year or two at best.

Atari was outsold by the PC, Apple II, Mac, and C64 in '84 but that's just machines who's sales figures were released... still, things could only get worse as more capable machines hit the market.

 

No one in this thread wrote that A8 was leader of the market in the following years.

No one in this thread wrote that A8 is the more capable machine.

It's not a "vs." thread!

And? You said I was totally wrong and I quoted the sales figures.

The Atari wasn't the leader early on and it certainly wasn't after the intro of the C64.

At best, it lead for 2 years, and Atari probably never had top market share during either one.

But we'll never know since Tandy never released sales figures for the CoCo, they just said the CoCo was their top seller.

In 1984 Tandy introduced the 1000 so I think it's safe to say Tany maintained better market share than Atari.

 

Ya know, the quote tags are there for a reason.

[JamesD]

Yes, as did many other companies, I already mentioned, Nintendo did, someone else here mentioned Apple did too, so your 'oh so honest sweet company' Commodore didn't? You are very naive.

Marketing versus stock reports... not the same thing. Didn't I mention not to trust marketing?

 

Lets see... if you falsify reports to stockholders:

SEC halts trading of your stock

your doors get locked and all files seized for an investigation

company officials involved are arrested

your creditors call in their loans

you get sued by your stockholders

your assets gets seized

everything gets liquidated

 

No way Commodore could perpetrate such a fraud for that many years.

 

If fanboys exaggerate sales on Wikipedia... yeah I can believe that... but not sales figures in stock reports.

[JamesD]

The average Joe would barely consider the Atari 400 or 800 in 1980 or 1981. He'd choose or be recommended the TRS-80 and its userbase, distribution network and software support. The 400 or 800 were a bit too exotic, not serious enough compared to the competition and, anyway, clashed with Atari's other machine, the VCS, for gaming.

 

Small businesses, laboratories and schools also used Apple, TRS-80 and even Commodore PET computers, which probably helped. Atari, as a newcomer, was on its own and had much less presence. Unless you were a bit geeky or well-informed, the Atari was almost never the number one choice in the early days.

If for early days we consider 1979 and 1980, I can agree.

If we consider 1981 and 1982, I don't agree. If Compute! supported A8 platform strongly in 1981 and 1982, that means A8 had a big installed base.

Agreed, You almost never saw a PET anywhere (USA) or TRS unless you happened to be in radio shack. Maybe we are talking retail or consumer here. Atari was much much more visable, see a local Major retailer of the day (Sears) Montgomery ward etc. No TRS 80 or PET there.

All we had in our school was TRS-80s and Apples. I didn't even know anyone with an Atari computer until I was in college. For that matter I didn't know anyone with a Commodore until I was in college. It all depends on what was popular where you were from.

 

Compute supported the Atari because a lot of people with Ataris subscribed to it... and some of the key authors/editors owned Ataris.

[+wood_jl]

From this page (old comp.sys.atari.8bit post).....

 

Is Atari killing the 8-bit?

 

.....which is dated May 15, 1987, Atari's Neil Harris mentions the number of A8 computers sold......

 

he mass merchants, who sold the bulk of the

hundreds of thousands (not, unfortunately, millions) of Atari 8-bit

computers out there, are currently retreating from the computer business.

 

So if it was less than a million in 1987, with sales dropping steadily as the years passed to the end (1991? 1992?) then one can estimate 1 million, maybe a little more, but I don't see how it could be multiple millions, if Neil Harris' information was correct.

[+hunmanik]

Here are sales figures I've come across in published media reports over the years. Each of the following is pulled from the history/timeline section of the FAQ.

• By the end of 1980, Atari had sold 35,000 computers. (wish I recorded my source for this one)
• July 26, 1982: InfoWorld estimated between 250,000 and 300,000 Atari 400/800 computers had been sold to date.
• Atari sold 400,000 of its 400 and 800 computers in 1982, according to The Yankee Group, a Boston-based computer consulting firm, accounting for 17 percent of all home computer sales.
• "Atari sold roughly 250,000 of its 800 series computers last year" - Time magazine, July 16, 1984
• May 21: Atari disclosed that the 5200 was no longer in production. More than 1 million 5200s had been sold to date. (Washington Post, May 22, 1984, C3)
• "The 800XL has sold almost 500,000 units through 1984" --Atari's Sigmund Hartmann, Atari Explorer magazine, Summer 1985, p. 33.
• "By the end of 1984, the Atari 800XL will have sold more than 600,000 units since its introduction more than a year ago, according to Kenneth Lim of Dataquest, a market research firm in San Jose." InfoWorld January 7/14, 1985
• Atari sold 100,000 XE Game Systems in the U.S. at Christmas [1987] and did not meet demand (Antic magazine, May 1988, p. 39)
• At the Atari shareholders meeting, Atari stated that last year, 250,000 XE computers were sold. In Poland, the XE sold 70,000 units, making it the most popular computer in Poland. (Atari Interface, June/July 1990, p. 6)

[JamesD]

From this page (old comp.sys.atari.8bit post).....

 

Is Atari killing the 8-bit?

 

.....which is dated May 15, 1987, Atari's Neil Harris mentions the number of A8 computers sold......

 

he mass merchants, who sold the bulk of the

hundreds of thousands (not, unfortunately, millions) of Atari 8-bit

computers out there, are currently retreating from the computer business.

 

So if it was less than a million in 1987, with sales dropping steadily as the years passed to the end (1991? 1992?) then one can estimate 1 million, maybe a little more, but I don't see how it could be multiple millions, if Neil Harris' information was correct.

Keep in mind an off the cuff comment about hundreds of thousands might have been per year rather than total, and he was probably thinking they should have been selling millions of machines a year instead of Commodore.

 

This all comes down to who do you believe and where did the info come from. What is anecdotal and what is actual. Unless we could see sales figures in stock reports it's pretty hard to tell what is true.