mbd30 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Based on my experiences owning an Atari 7800 at the time, the system felt more like a slightly upgraded Atari 2600 compared to the NES. Maybe that was because I only owned a few 7800 titles and they were the ports of Ms. Pac-Man, Dig Dug, Pole Position II and Food Fight (while I had over a couple dozen 2600 carts). I can appreciate the 7800's capabilities more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Based on my experiences owning an Atari 7800 at the time, the system felt more like a slightly upgraded Atari 2600 compared to the NES. Maybe that was because I only owned a few 7800 titles and they were the ports of Ms. Pac-Man, Dig Dug, Pole Position II and Food Fight (while I had over a couple dozen 2600 carts). I can appreciate the 7800's capabilities more now. Just look at the line-up differences and what each system offered at the time: Atari 7800 offerings... 1986: 01. Dig Dug 02. Galaga 03. Ms. Pac-Man 04. Pole Position II 05. Xevious 1987: 06. Asteroids 07. Ballblazer 08. Centipede 09. Choplifter! 10. Desert Falcon 11. Food Fight 12. Hat Trick 13. Impossible Mission 14. Joust 15. One-On-One Basketball 16. Robotron: 2084 17. Summer Games 18. Winter Games 18 games by the end of 1987; or better put in perspective - for the holiday season of 1987. NES offerings... 1985: 01. 10-Yard Fight 02. Baseball 03. Clu Clu Land 04. Duck Hunt 05. Excitebike 06. Golf 07. Gyromite 08. Hogan's Alley 09. Ice Climber 10. Kung-Fu 11. Pinball 12. Soccer 13. Stack-Up 14. Super Mario Bros. 15. Tennis 16. Wild Gunman 17. Wrecking Crew 1986: 18. Donkey Kong 19. Donkey Kong 3 20. Donkey Kong Jr. 21. Donkey Kong Jr. Math 22. Mario Bros. 23. Popeye 24. Balloon Fight 25. Gumshoe 26. Mach Rider 27. Urban Champion 28. Tag Team Wrestling 29. Chubby Cherub 30. M.U.S.C.L.E. 31. Ninja Kid 32. 1942 33. Commando 34. Ghosts 'n Goblins 35. Gradius 36. Karate Champ 1987: 37. Athletic World 38. Trojan 39. Pro Wrestling 40. Slalom 41. Volleyball 42. Rush'n Attack 43. Track & Field 44. BurgerTime 45. Castlevania 46. Ikari Warriors 47. Kid Icarus 48. Mighty Bomb Jack 49. Rygar 50. Section Z 51. Solomon's Key 52. Arkanoid 53. Athena 54. Elevator Action 55. The Legend of Kage 56. Metroid 57. The Legend of Zelda 58. The 3-D Battles of WorldRunner 59. Deadly Towers 60. Double Dribble 61. Lode Runner 62. Raid on Bungeling Bay 63. Ring King 64. Sky Kid 65. Spelunker 66. Spy Hunter 67. Sqoon 68. Stadium Events 69. Star Voyager 70. Stinger 71. Tiger Heli 72. Winter Games 73. Rad Racer 74. Alpha Mission 75. Lunar Pool 76. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! 77. Zanac 78. BreakThru 79. The Goonies II 80. Gotcha! The Sport! 81. Jaws 82. The Karate Kid 83. Kid Niki: Radical Ninja 84. Star Force 85. Super Pitfall 86. Top Gun 87. Side Pocket 88. Mega Man 89. Wizards & Warriors 89 games by the end of 1987. Even for the most die hard of Atari fan and loyalist, that was a very hard pill to swallow. The breadth and depth of the NES library by 1987 was something the 7800 would not see during its entire retail lifespan. Consequently, the 7800 platform potential was paled back then in comparison to the kinetic demonstration of the NES platform. It's one of the reasons I've been and continue to be a supporter of the 7800...so much untapped potential. The homebrew community for the 7800, both software and hardware, does amazing work in allowing the console to shine in a way overlooked or entirely missed, BITD. It's very cool to be able to appreciate the 7800 capabilities more now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbd30 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Just look at the line-up differences and what each system offered at the time: Atari 7800 offerings... 1986: 01. Dig Dug 02. Galaga 03. Ms. Pac-Man 04. Pole Position II 05. Xevious 1987: 06. Asteroids 07. Ballblazer 08. Centipede 09. Choplifter! 10. Desert Falcon 11. Food Fight 12. Hat Trick 13. Impossible Mission 14. Joust 15. One-On-One Basketball 16. Robotron: 2084 17. Summer Games 18. Winter Games 18 games by the end of 1987; or better put in perspective - for the holiday season of 1987. NES offerings... 1985: 01. 10-Yard Fight 02. Baseball 03. Clu Clu Land 04. Duck Hunt 05. Excitebike 06. Golf 07. Gyromite 08. Hogan's Alley 09. Ice Climber 10. Kung-Fu 11. Pinball 12. Soccer 13. Stack-Up 14. Super Mario Bros. 15. Tennis 16. Wild Gunman 17. Wrecking Crew 1986: 18. Donkey Kong 19. Donkey Kong 3 20. Donkey Kong Jr. 21. Donkey Kong Jr. Math 22. Mario Bros. 23. Popeye 24. Balloon Fight 25. Gumshoe 26. Mach Rider 27. Urban Champion 28. Tag Team Wrestling 29. Chubby Cherub 30. M.U.S.C.L.E. 31. Ninja Kid 32. 1942 33. Commando 34. Ghosts 'n Goblins 35. Gradius 36. Karate Champ 1987: 37. Athletic World 38. Trojan 39. Pro Wrestling 40. Slalom 41. Volleyball 42. Rush'n Attack 43. Track & Field 44. BurgerTime 45. Castlevania 46. Ikari Warriors 47. Kid Icarus 48. Mighty Bomb Jack 49. Rygar 50. Section Z 51. Solomon's Key 52. Arkanoid 53. Athena 54. Elevator Action 55. The Legend of Kage 56. Metroid 57. The Legend of Zelda 58. The 3-D Battles of WorldRunner 59. Deadly Towers 60. Double Dribble 61. Lode Runner 62. Raid on Bungeling Bay 63. Ring King 64. Sky Kid 65. Spelunker 66. Spy Hunter 67. Sqoon 68. Stadium Events 69. Star Voyager 70. Stinger 71. Tiger Heli 72. Winter Games 73. Rad Racer 74. Alpha Mission 75. Lunar Pool 76. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! 77. Zanac 78. BreakThru 79. The Goonies II 80. Gotcha! The Sport! 81. Jaws 82. The Karate Kid 83. Kid Niki: Radical Ninja 84. Star Force 85. Super Pitfall 86. Top Gun 87. Side Pocket 88. Mega Man 89. Wizards & Warriors 89 games by the end of 1987. Even for the most die hard of Atari fan and loyalist, that was a very hard pill to swallow. The breadth and depth of the NES library by 1987 was something the 7800 would not see during its entire retail lifespan. Consequently, the 7800 platform potential was paled back then in comparison to the kinetic demonstration of the NES platform. It's one of the reasons I've been and continue to be a supporter of the 7800...so much untapped potential. The homebrew community for the 7800, both software and hardware, does amazing work in allowing the console to shine in a way overlooked or entirely missed, BITD. It's very cool to be able to appreciate the 7800 capabilities more now. Honestly I was surprised to find out that there are that many games for the 7800. I thought that there were around 11. Edited May 27, 2018 by mbd30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I love the Atari 7800 but anyone that doesn't concede the NES was the superior machine without question has their head in the clouds. The NES ruled for the whole generation and even somewhat into the next. The NES did everything it needed to do, was supported by everyone as it was the machine to be on and continued to grow as it's retail lifespan carried out. The 7800 wasn't and isn't anything compared to the NES. Full stop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbd30 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I love the Atari 7800 but anyone that doesn't concede the NES was the superior machine without question has their head in the clouds. The NES ruled for the whole generation and even somewhat into the next. The NES did everything it needed to do, was supported by everyone as it was the machine to be on and continued to grow as it's retail lifespan carried out. The 7800 wasn't and isn't anything compared to the NES. Full stop. Both consoles have their strengths and weaknesses. There are games ported to both systems where the 7800 version is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Both consoles have their strengths and weaknesses. There are games ported to both systems where the 7800 version is better. That is a clear case of the extreme minority. The sun shines on the dog's asshole once in a while too but that isn't common place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 27, 2018 Author Share Posted May 27, 2018 Honestly I was surprised to find out that there are that many games for the 7800. I thought that there were around 11. With the homebrews, there are nearly a hundred now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) I love the Atari 7800 but anyone that doesn't concede the NES was the superior machine without question has their head in the clouds. The NES ruled for the whole generation and even somewhat into the next. The NES did everything it needed to do, was supported by everyone as it was the machine to be on and continued to grow as it's retail lifespan carried out. The 7800 wasn't and isn't anything compared to the NES. Full stop. There's no such thing as "universally superior". The 7800 cannot replicate pixel for pixel the most impressive NES side scrollers, just as the NES can't move around anywhere near as many objects on the screen. The NES has brighter colours, the 7800 has more colours. The NES typically has higher resolution but no NES game matches the resolution of the highest resolution 7800 games. The NES has far superior sound, unless the 7800 was used as designed and has a sound chip in cartridge. But put all that aside for a second. The NES has a better library because the NES was the most popular system and had better developer support. Developers who pushed the system, learned how to glean more out of the system and invested in development to make their games stand out. Full stop. Edited May 28, 2018 by DracIsBack 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 There's no such thing as "universally superior". The 7800 cannot replicate pixel for pixel the most impressive NES side scrollers, just as the NES can't move around anywhere near as many objects on the screen. The NES has brighter colours, the 7800 has more colours. The NES typically has higher resolution but no NES game matches the resolution of the highest resolution 7800 games. The NES has far superior sound, unless the 7800 was used as designed and has a sound chip in cartridge. But put all that aside for a second. The NES has a better library because the NES was the most popular system and had better developer support. Developers who pushed the system, learned how to glean more out of the system and invested in development to make their games stand out. Full stop. Which begs the question: Should Atari have axed the ST early when it became clear that it was becoming a dead letter here in the US and instead have focused on longer development cycles on the 7800 instead? Because it seems like the Tremiels simply thought that handing over port jobs to independent contractors was enough to get games onto the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 Which begs the question: Should Atari have axed the ST early when it became clear that it was becoming a dead letter here in the US and instead have focused on longer development cycles on the 7800 instead? Because it seems like the Tremiels simply thought that handing over port jobs to independent contractors was enough to get games onto the system. Good question. Always felt to me like the Tramiels considered the video game department to be the business unit that funded the computer division's R&D. They treated it like a cash cow so the profits could help the ST line. To be fair, the ST was dead in the USA but successful internationally for a number of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 To be fair, the ST was dead in the USA but successful internationally for a number of years.That didn't stop them from buying Federated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 That didn't stop them from buying Federated. Yeah - that was a bit of a boondoggle, wasn't it? Tramiel was used to be able to distribute his computers through mass merchants during his Commodore days, and when he got to Atari, that was a whole lot harder. Many of them weren't carrying computers at all and the computer stores weren't all that big on carrying Atari's computers. So they bought up Federated Electronics to try and fill the void in the USA. You've probably already heard it, but in case you haven't, check out the Antic: The Atari 8Bit podcast where they interview Atari Corp's corporate council on Federated. It's pretty interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 Here's the podcast https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-46-nicholas-lefevre-attorney-for-commodore-atari 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) Just look at the line-up differences and what each system offered at the time: Atari 7800 offerings... 1986: 01. Dig Dug 02. Galaga 03. Ms. Pac-Man 04. Pole Position II 05. Xevious 1987: 06. Asteroids 07. Ballblazer 08. Centipede 09. Choplifter! 10. Desert Falcon 11. Food Fight 12. Hat Trick 13. Impossible Mission 14. Joust 15. One-On-One Basketball 16. Robotron: 2084 17. Summer Games 18. Winter Games 18 games by the end of 1987; or better put in perspective - for the holiday season of 1987. NES offerings... 1985: 01. 10-Yard Fight 02. Baseball 03. Clu Clu Land 04. Duck Hunt 05. Excitebike 06. Golf 07. Gyromite 08. Hogan's Alley 09. Ice Climber 10. Kung-Fu 11. Pinball 12. Soccer 13. Stack-Up 14. Super Mario Bros. 15. Tennis 16. Wild Gunman 17. Wrecking Crew 1986: 18. Donkey Kong 19. Donkey Kong 3 20. Donkey Kong Jr. 21. Donkey Kong Jr. Math 22. Mario Bros. 23. Popeye 24. Balloon Fight 25. Gumshoe 26. Mach Rider 27. Urban Champion 28. Tag Team Wrestling 29. Chubby Cherub 30. M.U.S.C.L.E. 31. Ninja Kid 32. 1942 33. Commando 34. Ghosts 'n Goblins 35. Gradius 36. Karate Champ 1987: 37. Athletic World 38. Trojan 39. Pro Wrestling 40. Slalom 41. Volleyball 42. Rush'n Attack 43. Track & Field 44. BurgerTime 45. Castlevania 46. Ikari Warriors 47. Kid Icarus 48. Mighty Bomb Jack 49. Rygar 50. Section Z 51. Solomon's Key 52. Arkanoid 53. Athena 54. Elevator Action 55. The Legend of Kage 56. Metroid 57. The Legend of Zelda 58. The 3-D Battles of WorldRunner 59. Deadly Towers 60. Double Dribble 61. Lode Runner 62. Raid on Bungeling Bay 63. Ring King 64. Sky Kid 65. Spelunker 66. Spy Hunter 67. Sqoon 68. Stadium Events 69. Star Voyager 70. Stinger 71. Tiger Heli 72. Winter Games 73. Rad Racer 74. Alpha Mission 75. Lunar Pool 76. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! 77. Zanac 78. BreakThru 79. The Goonies II 80. Gotcha! The Sport! 81. Jaws 82. The Karate Kid 83. Kid Niki: Radical Ninja 84. Star Force 85. Super Pitfall 86. Top Gun 87. Side Pocket 88. Mega Man 89. Wizards & Warriors 89 games by the end of 1987. Even for the most die hard of Atari fan and loyalist, that was a very hard pill to swallow. The breadth and depth of the NES library by 1987 was something the 7800 would not see during its entire retail lifespan. Consequently, the 7800 platform potential was paled back then in comparison to the kinetic demonstration of the NES platform. It's one of the reasons I've been and continue to be a supporter of the 7800...so much untapped potential. The homebrew community for the 7800, both software and hardware, does amazing work in allowing the console to shine in a way overlooked or entirely missed, BITD. It's very cool to be able to appreciate the 7800 capabilities more now. You can't make that comparison, because the communist Nintendo didn't allow firms who did games for NES also releasing them for other consoles like the 7800. Edited May 28, 2018 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 You can't make that comparison, because the communist Nintendo didn't allow firms who did games for NES also releasing them for other consoles like the 7800. It’s funny how Atari Corp couldn’t actually prove this allegation in court. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 You can't make that comparison, because the communist Nintendo didn't allow firms who did games for NES also releasing them for other consoles like the 7800. Huh? The comparison was to show the factual number and name of games available for both systems by the end of 1987. Nowhere in the post is there commentary on any legal or circumstantial justification, or explanation, why that was the case. The comparison was technical in nature. Having relatively few new games available with an overall lack of variety for the 7800, by the end of 1987 (Whatever the reason(s)), was much to my chagrin, not pleasure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) It’s funny how Atari Corp couldn’t actually prove this allegation in court. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The jury was technically "hung" on several points. In the end, Atari agreed not to appeal, Nintendo agreed not to sue to recover costs. And most importantly, Nintendo dropped the requirement. At the time, it wasn't just Atari Corp suing. It was also Tengen (Atari Games), and they were being investigated by the Federal Trade Commission. Here's an article from the time http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market Edited May 28, 2018 by DracIsBack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari PAC-MAN Fan Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 The 7800 may have been able to compete in terms of graphics, but the sound was awful unless the cartridge used a POKEY chip, and the controllers were uncomfortable and outdated. The sound was terrible because they used the exact same sound chip that was used for the 2600. And don't forget about the Atari 7800 game-pad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Another vs thread... Do we have like 10 of these already? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 The jury was technically "hung" on several points. In the end, Atari agreed not to appeal, Nintendo agreed not to sue to recover costs. And most importantly, Nintendo dropped the requirement. At the time, it wasn't just Atari Corp suing. It was also Tengen (Atari Games), and they were being investigated by the Federal Trade Commission. Here's an article from the time http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market The main point I was making was that Tremiel wanted Nintendo to be declared a monopoly over the issue of the exclusives rule. Tremiel didn’t get this because the jury found that having exclusive deals isn’t against the Sherman Antitrust Act. It’s from this case that the legality of Console exclusives from Third Parties exist. It’s why Microsoft and Sony throw billions at third parties in order to nab them from the competition. As an aside: From what I’ve read, the jury only deadlocked over the ancillary issue of claims that Nintendo had forced department stores to drop competitors products by way of retail pullout threats. But because that had acquitted Nintendo over the monopoly issue, the judge was forced to acquit Nintendo on these charges because the ancillary charges needed the primary accusation to stick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragmare Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Basically, on a business level, it comes down to this... Nintendo came out swinging and never really stopped swinging. Atari came out kind of tentative, got backed into a corner, and subsequently overwhelmed by Nintendo. On a technical level, the systems were not *that* far apart from one another (sound chip disparities aside), in my eyes anyway. 7800 really should have had POKEY on board, though... it got robbed, in that regard. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted May 29, 2018 Author Share Posted May 29, 2018 The main point I was making was that Tremiel wanted Nintendo to be declared a monopoly over the issue of the exclusives rule. Tremiel didn’t get this because the jury found that having exclusive deals isn’t against the Sherman Antitrust Act. It’s from this case that the legality of Console exclusives from Third Parties exist. It’s why Microsoft and Sony throw billions at third parties in order to nab them from the competition. As an aside: From what I’ve read, the jury only deadlocked over the ancillary issue of claims that Nintendo had forced department stores to drop competitors products by way of retail pullout threats. But because that had acquitted Nintendo over the monopoly issue, the judge was forced to acquit Nintendo on these charges because the ancillary charges needed the primary accusation to stick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Reality is that - legal wranglings aside, Nintendo generated enough 'heat' from their 1980s dealings that they dropped many of the controversial items. The entire library was no longer exclusive to Nintendo; Developers could release as many games as they wanted on the system. Developers could manufacture their own cartridges at their own pricing. Nintendo settled the price fixing allegations regarding Super Mario Bros 3. Nintendo backed off on a lot of the retail aggressiveness allowing competitors to have equal footing etc. ... And the Genesis rose up against the mighty Nintendo ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxdrive Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 back when Nintendo hit the market it seems the taste in games were changing that people wanted a more complex experience with a game. Like super Mario bros and more so the legend of Zelda it seems more and more people wanted a game you could sit down and play for a few hours not just ten minutes. Atari seemed to needed to come up with something of their own like Zelda a more immersive game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Honestly I was surprised to find out that there are that many games for the 7800. I thought that there were around 11. Certain games were listed as available, but couldn't be found in stores anywhere. Impossible Mission and Summer Games took forever to make it to any stores near me. Like, I think 1989. Lots of later games like Scrapyard Dog, Alien Brigade, Midnight Mutants I don't remember ever seeing in stores near me, and didn't find them until much later in the early 2000's when ebay came along. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynxpro Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) That is a clear case of the extreme minority. The sun shines on the dog's asshole once in a while too but that isn't common place. This is the type of opinion that's common on Facebook even in Atari groups by people who allegedly are Atari fans. One guy always slagged on the 7800 any time the NES was cited and of course dissed the 5200 every chance he got. It's like, yeah, the NES had a superior library thanks to Nintendo's illegal monopolistic practices. Had Atari Inc survived and launched the 7800 at Christmas 1984 as originally planned, Nintendo would've never become anything outside of Japan even to this day... Edited June 16, 2018 by Lynxpro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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