Pacman 2600 discussion page

[Dutchman2000]

The 8K ROMS were available after work on Pac Man had begun, 4K was the standard size for games at that time. 8K was never an option for 2600 Pac Man. The other programmers were very impressed with Tod's effort. I would think that impressing the consumer with a really great version was a better option.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Dutchman2000

[CapitanClassic]

couldn't find exact figures for manufacturing costs (I did as something that said the whole cart cost 8-$12, versus COB manufacturing that cost $1). if you make 12 million copies of something and you can save $1-$2, that's a big chunk of change.

[Chris++]

8K was never an option for 2600 Pac Man.

 

Sure it was. Asteroids came out months before Pac-Man, and that contained bank-switching. 8 KB might not have been available when either game was started, but the option certainly arose before either was completed. To cite just one source, both of these ex-Atari programmers remember Frye "begging" for 8 KB:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmqzybUe9m4

 

Frye wasn't really at fault for the game being lackluster. He had the two largest banes of the entire video-game industry on his shoulders: a deadline, and management consisting of greedy swine. The executives' decision to keep Pac-Man constrained to the cheaper 4 KB ROM, knowing that the game would sell well based on the name even if it wasn't very good, led to the disappointing conversion. A similar case involved Coleco's denial of Garry Kitchen's request for 8 KB while he was programming Donkey Kong.

[SoulBlazer]

 

Sure it was. Asteroids came out months before Pac-Man, and that contained bank-switching. 8 KB might not have been available when either game was started, but the option certainly arose before either was completed. To cite just one source, both of these ex-Atari programmers remember Frye "begging" for 8 KB:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmqzybUe9m4

 

Frye wasn't really at fault for the game being lackluster. He had the two largest banes of the entire video-game industry on his shoulders: a deadline, and management consisting of greedy swine. The executives' decision to keep Pac-Man constrained to the cheaper 4 KB ROM, knowing that the game would sell well based on the name even if it wasn't very good, led to the disappointing conversion. A similar case involved Coleco's denial of Garry Kitchen's request for 8 KB while he was programming Donkey Kong.

 

And this is why interviews should be double checked.

 

This great page has a lot of information on Pac-Man's development from Curt and Marty when they were doing the Atari book, and Tod specifically says he never asked for 8K:

 

http://ataribook.com/book/what-are-the-real-facts-behind-pac-mans-development/

[Chris++]

SoulBlazer, on 17 Jan 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:SoulBlazer, on 17 Jan 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

 

And this is why interviews should be double checked.

 

This great page has a lot of information on Pac-Man's development from Curt and Marty when they were doing the Atari book, and Tod specifically says he never asked for 8K:

 

http://ataribook.com/book/what-are-the-real-facts-behind-pac-mans-development/

 

Exactly, Greg. Frye's interview should be double-checked -- which is to say, it should be considered as one source of many, not to mention the only claim (to my knowledge) that 8 KB were never asked for. Everyone else from Atari who's ever mentioned it has talked about management's conscious decision to keep the ROM cheap and withhold the 8 KB, including management itself (I can't remember if it was Ray Kassar or another department head) in Steve Bloom's book Video Invaders, in which the interviews are actually from the period. The timeline of bank-switching availability bears out the claims of the majority.

 

My guess is not that Frye's lying, but rather that it's been thirty-five years and memories aren't always accurate. I mean, Frye also said that the monsters were flickering because he (and the manual writer, presumably) considered them to be "ghosts."

 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Chris++

[SoulBlazer]

Chris++, on 17 Jan 2016 - 5:09 PM, said:

 

Exactly, Greg. Frye's interview should be double-checked -- which is to say, it should be considered as one source of many, not to mention the only claim (to my knowledge) that 8 KB were never asked for. Everyone else from Atari who's ever mentioned it has talked about management's conscious decision to keep the ROM cheap and withhold the 8 KB, including management itself (I can't remember if it was Ray Kassar or another department head) in Steve Bloom's book Video Invaders, in which the interviews are actually from the period. The timeline of bank-switching availability bears out the claims of the majority.

 

My guess is not that Frye's lying, but rather that it's been thirty-five years and memories aren't always accurate. I mean, Frye also said that the monsters were flickering because he (and the manual writer, presumably) considered them to be "ghosts."

 

 

I'm still inclined to believe Frye that he never asked for 8k -- in the book as well as the website, Marty and Curt make a conviencing argument. Still, I do agree with that some of the blame lays with Atari management. As I've said before and in a past submission on Pac Man to the 2600 Podcast, Asteroids was in development about the same time as Pac Man and even if Frye didn't ask for 8k someone should have realized that it would REALLY help the game to have that much, esepecily since two player had to be included also. They knew the game would sell like hotcakes and didn't care if it was close to the arcade version or not. Of course all Atari games didn't really look or feel anything like the arcade game it was based on, but Pac Man is the worst offender.

 

As for that whole ghost/monster debate I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

[Dauber]

As for that whole ghost/monster debate I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

 

Probably why they were called "ghost monsters" in the cartoon.

 

(FWIW, on the Midway cab they're called "monsters." In the 2600 version they're called "ghosts." And dots are called "video wafers." And energizers are called "power pills." Why aren't there ever heated discussions of "dots" versus "video wafers"???)

[ZylonBane]

Why aren't there ever heated discussions of "dots" versus "video wafers"???)

 

Because it's beyond obvious that Atari only called them that to explain why they're rectangular.

[high voltage]

Still love it, great game

 

[Dauber]

 

Because it's beyond obvious that Atari only called them that to explain why they're rectangular.

 

It's also beyond obvious that Atari only called the monsters "ghosts" to explain why they're flickering.

[lapetino]

 

It's also beyond obvious that Atari only called the monsters "ghosts" to explain why they're flickering.

Not trying to start something, but do you have any evidence to support this reasoning? As well as that of the rectangle change? I am very curious.

[Dauber]

Naaaaaah, not handy right now, and supporting evidence wouldn't help. There's too much of this going on: "Well, Reference X says this." "Well, Reference Y says this." "Well, the developer himself said this." "Well, it's 35 years later, memories are bound to get fuzzy."

BTW, you want to see a real headache-inducing VCS Pac-Man debate?? There was one on the Facebook group a few days ago...some cat insisting that Pac-Man is an unfinished prototype because he heard it in some phantom documentary that he can't remember the name of, thousands (or millions? don't remember) of Pac-Man carts buried, etc. The sagest, most proven data from Marty himself could not show this guy the light.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Dauber

[SoulBlazer]

Even as a kid, I always called them 'ghosts' cause to my six year old mind, looking at them in the arcade, they looked like ghosts to me.

[ZylonBane]

It's also beyond obvious that Atari only called the monsters "ghosts" to explain why they're flickering.

 

Completely wrong. Most people called them ghosts in the arcade too. Because y'know, they look like ghosts.

 

Try this... go to Google search and type "pac man". When the suggestion list pops up, note that "pac man ghosts" is in there, but "pac man monsters" is not.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosts_%28Pac-Man%29

[bigbacon]

as a kid I always loved that you could half eat the center pellets...

 

Game never bothered me back then and I'm sure I had played the arcade version. Obviously there are better 2600 games but as a child, I could care less. It was fun to play.

[Dauber]

Cry this... go to Google search and type "pac man". When the suggestion list pops up, note that "pac man ghosts" is in there, but "pac man monsters" is not.

[Chris++]

The point is that they were called "monsters" on the arcade cabinet. It's unlikely that Atari management spent a lot of time in game rooms, listening to what players called Pac-Man's enemies.

 

"Completely wrong" is over the top, as it's entirely possible that they were called "ghosts" because of the flickering. We can't really know either way, but we know that the manual writers were often called upon to rationalize glitches or idiosyncrasies. As just one example, consider the "Super-Strong Robot" that's mentioned in the Berzerk instructions to explain away the bug that makes a robot survive if another dies at the same time the player's shot connects.

 

In any case, I prefer the point that Greg has indirectly made: One's own imagination trumps all.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Chris++

[Crimefighter]

The cartoon called them GHOST MONSTERS.

[Chris++]

Crimefighter, on 18 Jan 2016 - 7:37 PM, said:

The cartoon called them GHOST MONSTERS.

 

So your hatred of Chicago even leads you to skip Dauber's posts?

 

(Just breakin' your balls, CF.)

[Dauber]

FWIW, I think you and ZylonBane are the only users who don't have me on the "ignore" list.

[bradhig1]

This was one of my favorite tricks in atari 2600 pacman. Eating all the ghosts and then eating another power pill before they could change back. The result the eyes just stare back at you from the box in the center of the screen. Wonder why it was programmed like that?

[Nukey Shay]

Because the program did not allow lethal enemies on the screen the same time as any possible edible ones, eyes stay put in the box until bluetime has expired. This was one of the easy fixes in the hack.

[bradhig1]

I thought it was because they would be blue again when they came out.

 

Here is a another problem. When pacman eats a pellet going right you can see the pellet in his mouth before he eats it. When he eats one going left you can't see it in his mouth like part of the blue background is drawn over it. Can that be fixed in this version? Dad warned us ahead of time it wouldn't be like the arcade version and the screen would be tilted.

[Nukey Shay]

Not really, without some messy logic keeping track of when dots along vertical axis should be taken. Those don't line up the same in all corridors...and would be missed if you adjust the positioning for horizontal (screen collision is not used to check for dots...only the dot matrix itself vs. the player sprite x/y). This is because the horizontal positioning of dots differs between lines so that they do not touch maze walls. So you'd need to add an additional matrix corresponding to which positions in quarter steps apply to which dots (if any) in full steps - or 18columns*8rows*4steps. 1/2 k of index BTW yes, releasing eyes from the box during bluetime would mean that they'd be vulnerable still...which is why the program does not allow it (i.e. they can't share the same screen).

Edited December 6, 2016 by Nukey Shay

[high voltage]