Wonderboy on the 7800?

[PacManPlus]

Ok...

 

Gorf is no longer here (unfortunately)

supercat is more on the 2600 programming side (as he's helped me with a Defender hack I worked on a while back)

I was always under the impression Eckhard was more on the hardware/technical side of things.

I don't recall a 7800 game that Heaven/TQA has made other than a few (cool-looking) demos

Eric doesn't seem to be interested in putting out a game for the 7800, although he is extremely knowledgable about it.

Wickeycolumbus is also more on the 2600 programming side

andym00 has only made a handful of posts in the 7800 programming section

Tom - we have one demo from him, and he once made a remark that the 7800 was a pain to program for, so we don't know how much more he will do. "No. Too much effort."

seemo seems to be more of a 2600 programmer

 

That might be why I missed them.

Notice that the people I listed have either put out a game or are close to doing so.

[GroovyBee]

Gorf is no longer here (unfortunately)

 

True, but he did have 3 WIP titles on the go. Binaries here Gorf, Ufo! and Warbirds and development threads are elsewhere.

 

supercat is more on the 2600 programming side (as he's helped me with a Defender hack I worked on a while back)

 

Wormy looked interesting but I'm not sure if there is anything more recent.

 

I was always under the impression Eckhard was more on the hardware/technical side of things.

 

True, but he did do a port of the RMT player, dev BIOS and the like.

 

I don't recall a 7800 game that Heaven/TQA has made other than a few (cool-looking) demos

 

I don't recall any games either but he did code some examples as you say.

 

Eric doesn't seem to be interested in putting out a game for the 7800, although he is extremely knowledgable about it.

 

SpaceWar! 7800 blog entry. Not sure if he's worked on it recently.

 

Wickeycolumbus is also more on the 2600 programming side

 

Started Vong but I'm not sure if he's worked on it recently.

 

andym00 has only made a handful of posts in the 7800 programming section

 

Cool 3D demo (emulator only).

 

Tom - we have one demo from him, and he once made a remark that the 7800 was a pain to program for, so we don't know how much more he will do. "No. Too much effort."

 

True, but in my opinion anything would be too much effort when you are into the demo scene, have to blow EPROMs to test anything and none of the emulators are cycle accurate.

 

seemo seems to be more of a 2600 programmer

 

Four of seemo's recent 7800 mini games (from last year) are Atlas, and Breaker, Adapter and Trapper

 

Although they haven't all completed their projects they have still made a contribution to the 7800 scene.

[PacManPlus]

I know about the games that were started:

- 'Gorf' source code was given to be by Gorf, although I haven't had the chance to finish it up for him.

- SpaceWar is from *2007* I think it's safe to say that until he either updates it or comes out with something new, he doesn't seem to be interested in / have the time for putting out a game for the 7800

- Wormy is also from 2007. Same logic applies.

- Vong is a little more recent (2009), but more recent posts have him in the 2600 environment. Hence my comment.

- Cool 3-d demo. 2004? Really?

 

- The only person I may have left out is seemo, as I forgot about his mini-games, and that I apologize for (as I stated in my original post)

 

The reason I wrote 'more on the 2600 side' for certain people is because the people I mentioned have done more on the 2600 than the 7800, hence they seem to be leaning toward developing on that platform.

 

I am in no way diminishing what anyone does / has done for the 7800 scene, nor am I anyone of any importance that can do so. The *actual topic* were the number of current 7800 developers. That's what I answered, quite accurately, I believe.

[Atarifever]

Semi-related:

I've often wondered if it would be possible to make one competent programmer out of a whole bunch of guys who know very little. Kind of a programmer assembly line. So, my time is hugely limited by having two kids under 3. So it will be years before I could dedicate enough time to learning the skills to be a competent assembly language programmer (as I know little more than some Basic stuff now), and much longer still before I could put that to use in making a game.

 

However, I sometimes wonder if I could learn to, say, do game sound effects. Or music. Or sprite design. Or to specialize in something like doing collision detection. Or whatever. And other people could learn really specific little things. And then, there're certainly people out there who can write stories for a game (anyone can do that for an Atari game). And there is probably someone out there with no programming skill at all who could design levels incredibly well. Then, there's probably someone out there who could manage a project, and someone else who could organize testing.

 

Would it be possible to arrange something like this? Could a team of regualrs from somewhere like this, who would be starting from nothing, be directed into the appropriate areas of study to assembly-line a game together? I know all parts of a game are related, and you can't exactly learn to just do one thing without knowing how to do any of the other stuff. But if a competent programmer (or a group of them) deconstructed what was needed to make a certain game, could they put a team on learning what was needed, and only what was needed? Once a team developed the right skills, they could make a sequel, or learn a few new skills each for the next game.

 

Anyway, that's probably impossible, but I had to ask, because the idea keeps nagging at me.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Atarifever

[GroovyBee]

@Atarifever: An interesting idea but ultimately it would depend on the game style and the commitment and drive of the individuals involved in the project in my opinion.

 

For example, giving a section of code that involves a hard number of CPU cycles limit (not often needed on the 7800) to somebody not yet familiar with the intricacies of the CPU, or adept at maths, logic and thinking outside the box would not get you the results you want for the game.

 

Similarly it can be hard on pixel artists to stretch the limited pixels and colours available into making good sprite animations and graphics.

 

Even as a game designer or level creator you need to have some appreciation for the limits of the machine otherwise you'd end up with games that look good on paper but can't be turned into a game using the meagre resources available (by today's standards at least).

 

Personally I think that you need to have some natural aptitude to the job at hand because I don't think everything you need in order to succeed in getting a fully completed game out of the door can be learned.

[Atarifever]

Personally I think that you need to have some natural aptitude to the job at hand because I don't think everything you need in order to succeed in getting a fully completed game out of the door can be learned.

Yeah, I guess even in my imagination it would require a real programmer at the top anyway. One who could say "okay I want a level layout. No, that's too big. Something simpler." Then later "okay, then I need sprites for Bently running. No, those are way too big, and use too many resources, simplify!" And "I need a theme for a title screen. It's how big? What do you think this is, the PS2?"

 

It would probably be more trouble than it was worth for that programmer who could probably do everything better on their own anyway.

 

A further inquiry: Is there any really tedious but simple thing anyone on here interested in it COULD learn that would be of value to all the programmers? Kind of a "if you just need X, go ask Y for it" type of person.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Atarifever

[BillyHW]

Hey, I really like the idea of whoever said you should replace the Wonder Boy sprite with Bentley Bear and have go-kart instead of a skateboard. That would be really cool.

[GroovyBee]

Yeah, I guess even in my imagination it would require a real programmer at the top anyway. One who could say "okay I want a level layout. No, that's too big. Something simpler." Then later "okay, then I need sprites for Bently running. No, those are way too big, and use too many resources, simplify!" And "I need a theme for a title screen. It's how big? What do you think this is, the PS2?"

 

I think that type of "overseer" job could be done by somebody who isn't a programmer but at the same time its not something a novice could do well. You'd need an appreciation of what the hardware can actually do RAM size, bank switching, graphics modes and so on. A good knowledge of what programmer tricks can get you when you want to push things a bit further would make life easier for some games too.

 

It would probably be more trouble than it was worth for that programmer who could probably do everything better on their own anyway.

 

It depends on the size of the project and the size of the team too.

 

A further inquiry: Is there any really tedious but simple thing anyone on here interested in it COULD learn that would be of value to all the programmers? Kind of a "if you just need X, go ask Y for it" type of person.

 

Since homebrew is done in spare time and some people's lives are busier at times than others it would be quite hard to keep everybody in lock step throughout the life of the project. Plus it can be hard to get yourself motivated if you are following somebody else's dream. In my mind the best option would be to start learning some 6502 assembler, then get to grips with MARIA's Display List List (DLL) and Display List (DL) headers before tackling a game. Once you can divide your game idea up into vertical zones (so that MARIA can handle it) you'd be well on the way to getting a complete game done. Plus if you get stuck ask questions.

[+Propane13]

I think music and sprite tweaking are definitely doable for someone who wants to learn.

They don't need to know about MARIA cycles or any of that jazz.

 

For music, they could have a basic kernel (many available) that calls "JSR PlayMusic" in a 1K code area every frame.

Someone could easily learn music that way; and, if they use TIA, they can do this in 2600-land too.

In the 2600 forums, some homebrews have come out where music isn't completed, and someone takes a few days and does this, which eventually gets adopted.

 

For sprite tweaking, as long as requirements are put forth up front, people can make sprites, and improve over time.

GroovyBee did mention that "it can be hard on pixel artists to stretch the limited pixels and colours available into making good sprite animations and graphics".

This is true, but whatever they come up with, if they have an artistic mind, could be much better than "programmer placeholder graphics" in the long run.

 

I, for one, tweak any sprites I make multiple times, and then realize that there are some people out there that could do that a LOT easier than me if they understood how the 7800 works a little bit. They may have a hard time with it initially, but that's the challenge of retro-programming-- and what's great is you get better with time. In fact, PAC-MAN-RED in a thread has demonstrated his learning of 2600 and 7800 sprites through his "Free sprites for the taking" thread; he persevered to learn the limitations, and workarounds. I think that's really cool. And now, he contributes to real projects. Anybody with the desire to dive in, definitely can make a difference.

 

So, yeah, if people want to learn this stuff, you can.

 

When it comes time for games to get polished (always recommended), they can be instrumental in taking a game from "B-" to "A+".

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

-John

[Atarifever]

Last unrelated question. If I did want to try to find time in my life to actually pursue learning about this stuff, would a good order to work up through it be:

Atari BASIC

bAtari basic

Assembly

Intricacies of the 7800

 

I've thought about this several times over the years, but since passing 30 and having 2 kids, although my time is more limited, I find I see stuff through a lot more often. Maybe I'll have more time for it than I think, I don't know. And adding this as a hobby would kind of be the last straw that gets me to drop the money and time consuming attachment to modern gaming, as I don't have time for adding anything else without dropping something. So if ever I will still be young enough to learn but old enough to not get side-tracked, now would be the time.

 

 

And if that is the right order to approach it, is it better to try to get my hands on a real Atari 8-bit for doing the Atari BASIC stuff, or would an emulator be just as good or better.

 

 

All further questions on this topic, I will place in the programming forum.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Atarifever

[+Propane13]

Question-- do you have any programming background?

[Atarifever]

Question-- do you have any programming background?

Not really. I used to do BASIC on my TRS 80 CoCo, a Vic 20, and a Tandy 1000. I forget most of it, which is sad because I taught myself by taking apart other programs and checking it against the little manual that came with the TRS, and it took a lot of time. I used to make text RPG games with randomized dice rolls and a HP tracker. Not very complicted, but I used to be proud of it.

[Jinks]

Question-- do you have any programming background?

Not really. I used to do BASIC on my TRS 80 CoCo, a Vic 20, and a Tandy 1000. I forget most of it, which is sad because I taught myself by taking apart other programs and checking it against the little manual that came with the TRS, and it took a lot of time. I used to make text RPG games with randomized dice rolls and a HP tracker. Not very complicted, but I used to be proud of it.

Thats me exactly. Cept for the vic 20 stuff. Remember saving games on the tape player on the trs 80? I remember also playing music from the tape player to the tv speaker thru the trs 80 and thought it was magic. Simple tho I think only a couple lines of commands. I am 35 now two kids, always wanted to make a game for the atari as well.

I remember typing out a program on the trs 80 from a book for two anolog sticks called space war I think with sounds and hit detection. took a long time only to have it gone when powered off. that sucked. But you know its a good way to learn.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Jinks

[Gandor]

It would be nice if somebody created a library for cc65 which could handle all the graphic stuff like the Lynx has.

Would make development for the 7800 a lot easier.

[GroovyBee]

It would be nice if somebody created a library for cc65 which could handle all the graphic stuff like the Lynx has.

Would make development for the 7800 a lot easier.

 

[DracIsBack]

I don't recall a 7800 game that Heaven/TQA has made other than a few (cool-looking) demos

 

Didn't he do that fun little Yoshi demo a few years ago? I've been trying to find that again.

[GroovyBee]

Didn't he do that fun little Yoshi demo a few years ago? I've been trying to find that again.

 

Is this thread it?

[PacManPlus]

Level1DEMO.A78

Level2DEMO.A78

[Defender_2600]

:love:

 

...a few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to see the video of this fantastic preview and I thought:

 

"you can not!"

 

.... then I looked again and I thought again:

 

"... Multiple Parallax scrolling? ... you can not, not a Sega Genesis! "

 

 

Instead this is really possible, this is Bob.

 

 

Finally, the surprise came, it was difficult to keep the secret!

 

THANK YOU!

 

Marco

 

[+Mitch]

I just beat level 1, now on to level 2.

 

Mitch

[DracIsBack]

Any bins ...

[Defender_2600]

..for the enthusiasm, I forgot to thank PAC-MAN RED ..

(Illya, I love your sprites accurate!)

 

 

Crystal Castles was one of the first games that I had for the Atari 2600,

I'd be really happy to see this project completed for the Atari 7800.

 

I will not deceive me, it's a lot of hard work and there are several obstacles to overcome ...

but many thanks for your effort.

 

 

Marco

[VicViper]

For those of us that don't emulate, any possibility of a youtube vid please?

P.S. I'd also like to be in the credits as Head of Creative Initiative. Kidding, of course.

[Shawn]

oh my fucking god! This is perfect! Leave it to Bob to bring to life a side scrolling platformer the 7800 has been starved of for so long THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

[Trebor]

A few captures from the Level 1 Demo...