What was Atari thinking?

[DracIsBack]

We're kinda stating the obvious here. The 7800 wasn't a competitive system in 1986. As a three-year-old system (if it had been Atari's mainline) it would have had momentum and the carts would have seen improved 'default' layouts by then. But as a 'newish' launch against the NES? Suicide

 

The NES itself, was a "three year old system". It was on the market and on sale in July 1983 in Japan as the Famicom. At that time, the 7800 hardware was still in the labs being worked on. I know the myth persists that Atari dusted off a dated 3 year old hardware to compete with the hot-new NES which was selling like gang busters, but the reality is quite different.

 

That said, it felt like Atari didn't react well to what Nintendo had on the NES.

 

NES-like games did eventually come to the 7800 ... but only after they got the XE experiment out of their system, and only after many stores stopped carrying the 7800 in 1989 and 1990.

 

Hindsight is 20-20, but I always wondered why they didn't look at the NES in 1986 and say "crap - bring out more advanced titles" so that stuff like ALIEN BRIGADE and MIDNIGHT MUTANTS and SCRAPYARD DOG was out there in 1987 ... and not 1989. Instead, they decided to release the XE Game System.

Edited July 16, 2013 by DracIsBack

[7800]

It actually is more than that. Maybe not by a mountainous amount, but it is.

Games like Realsports Baseball for example. One of if not THE best baseball titles of the era. And while there may be some that you could argue are as good on the 400, the control scheme, having only one button on the stick make the flow of gameplay a nightmare. On that note any games which require more than one button are a much better experience than the 400. Try playing Defender with having to use your toes(s) to activate the smart bomb and/or hyperspace. Then there's Space Dungeon...not available on the 400. Nor is as good of a dual joystick option like the 5200 coupler. That also makes Robotron a MUCH better game on the 5200.

And in addition to Space Dungeon;

Berzerk? Not on the 400.

Countermeasure? Not on the 400

Blueprint? Nope (ok...kind of a stinker but still)

Gremlins? Nope (a GREAT game)

Meteorites? Nope (ok...stinker)

Vanguard? Nope

Then there's Centipede. Availably on the 400, but graphically a stinker. The 5200 is damn close to arcade perfect. AND the trakball for the 5200 is better than ANY available for the computer line, which also makes Missile Command much better.

Of course everyone whines about the 5200 controllers, and ultimately there are many games where people can't adapt to them. I would submit the same kind of casual gamers would have a real hard time dealing with the often stiff analog controllers used on the 400 with free roaming games (like Defender for example...playing an hour long game session on a 2600 stick where you're CONSTANTLY pushing all directions can be tortuous).

I'll also throw in something that rarely comes up defending the 5200 (but ironically is one of the supposedly huge benefits to the 7800. Backwards compatibility with the 2600. Yes, you need an adapter, but no such beast exists for the 400.

 

All that said I'm NOT trying to say because of these reasons the 5200 is a far better option. The 400 has about a million more games available with only a handful that the 5200 has exclusively.

 

Still...it's not 100% the 400 clone everyone makes it out to be. There's more to love than it gets credit for.

 

I hear you... and agree. But my point was they could have just built an entirely new system from the ground up, which they ended up KINDA doing anyway less than 2 years later with the 7800. I say KINDA because the 7800 seemed more of an answer to everyones cry for a backward compatible system rather than a system with better graphics AND sound.

[Jinks]

Why does everyone not like the 7800 sound. it does pokey... It was ALL the games fault.. I think that point about the sound is annoying to read over and over. Amd how weak the 7800 is. It is about the games that were made mostly did not measure up. Oh lets blame the hardware. Everyone always blames the console. You get what you put in. And they mostly put in crap.

I think the nes was only cleared for production if all games flickered. Tell me why that is a non issue.

[7800]

Because the original plan was to have pokey built into the 7800. Atari cheaped out and decided not to have it. Then the next plan was to have each game with pokey, then they cheaped out again. Only a few original games have pokey.

[+wood_jl]

It actually is more than that. Maybe not by a mountainous amount, but it is.

 

Mountainous amount? HA HA HA!!!! I don't consider the worst controllers in the history of videogaming to be a mountainous achievement either, so I may actually agree in this.

 

 

 

Games like Realsports Baseball for example. One of if not THE best baseball titles of the era. And while there may be some that you could argue are as good on the 400, the control scheme, having only one button on the stick make the flow of gameplay a nightmare. On that note any games which require more than one button are a much better experience than the 400. Try playing Defender with having to use your toes(s) to activate the smart bomb and/or hyperspace. Then there's Space Dungeon...not available on the 400. Nor is as good of a dual joystick option like the 5200 coupler. That also makes Robotron a MUCH better game on the 5200.

And in addition to Space Dungeon;

Berzerk? Not on the 400.

Countermeasure? Not on the 400

Blueprint? Nope (ok...kind of a stinker but still)

Gremlins? Nope (a GREAT game)

Meteorites? Nope (ok...stinker)

Vanguard? Nope

Then there's Centipede. Availably on the 400, but graphically a stinker. The 5200 is damn close to arcade perfect. AND the trakball for the 5200 is better than ANY available for the computer line, which also makes Missile Command much better.

 

As the Atari computer line played a TON of 48K games - as well as most of the same 5200 games - this fact *greatly* outweighs the above WEAK argument. The number of games that were released on the 400/800 is a MULTIPLE of those for the 5200. Once again, anyone without their head where "the sun don't shine" knows this. As well, "Glenn the 5200 man" converted all of the games - and the better-looking 5200 versions - to the 400/800/XL/XE/XEGS. That was in the 1980s, even. As of today, the 5200 library is *laughably* inferior. Games that needed more than one "fire" button were easily accomodated by the 400/800/XL/XE/XEGS keyboard - a rather obvious observation.

 

Of course everyone whines about the 5200 controllers, and ultimately there are many games where people can't adapt to them.

 

"Whines?" HA HA! Rather, had legitimate complaints about sucky controllers that are the most unreliable in the history of videogames, after the fact that they were an ergonomic nightmare. HA HA HA!

 

I would submit the same kind of casual gamers would have a real hard time dealing with the often stiff analog controllers used on the 400 with free roaming games (like Defender for example...playing an hour long game session on a 2600 stick where you're CONSTANTLY pushing all directions can be tortuous).

 

So now this guy thinks that digital controllers are tortuous? HA HA! They work out so well for reasonable people; even in the arcade then, and today.

 

I'll also throw in something that rarely comes up defending the 5200 (but ironically is one of the supposedly huge benefits to the 7800. Backwards compatibility with the 2600. Yes, you need an adapter, but no such beast exists for the 400.

 

DUH!!! How compatible is the 2600 module, with the 5200? He didn't include the fact that it only works on SOME 5200s, and you may as well just get a "real" 2600 and set alongside your 5200, in the first place. I can't remember the specifics, but the 2600 module works with either the 2-port or the 4-port 5200, but not both. The fact that there *are* 2-port and 4-port versions of the console - in such short time - lends credibility to the fact that even Atari itself knew they were f**king-up with the 5200, or there never would have been need for such revision, in such short time. The entire scene was an unnecessary bastardization of the 400/800 line, and the evidence, historical failure, and the fact that controller problems persist today are CLEAR evidence of this fact. Quite obviously, the 7800 is the answer to backwards compatibility.

 

All that said I'm NOT trying to say because of these reasons the 5200 is a far better option. The 400 has about a million more games available with only a handful that the 5200 has exclusively.

 

Nobody knows what this guy really tries to say. As mentioned before - thanks to "Glenn the 5200 man" and others, there aren't any 5200 exclusives. Proof? Here's a link for you:

http://www.atarimania.com/list_games_atari-400-800-xl-xe-atari-5200-conversion_licence_1_8_G.html

I submit that as proof of my argument. I'd like to hear the counter-argument, but I know I won't.

 

Still...it's not 100% the 400 clone everyone makes it out to be. There's more to love than it gets credit for.

No, it's 50% the Atari 400 clone. It's fine to COLLECT for the sake of collectability. As mentioned previously, some love the Edsel, Pacer, and Gremlin - to compare to the automotive world. But they never argue they're the best cars, unlike our little friend here.

[jetset]

Why does everyone not like the 7800 sound. it does pokey.

 

Because it's HORRIBLE!

Fortunately it doesn't matter for many of the games...Asteroids and Galaga for example are tolerable. Donkey Kong though rattles the fillings in my back teeth. It doesn't ruin the system but it does dampen the experience a bit if you're wanting the 80's arcade experience.

[Jinks]

 

 

Because it's HORRIBLE!

Fortunately it doesn't matter for many of the games...Asteroids and Galaga for example are tolerable. Donkey Kong though rattles the fillings in my back teeth. It doesn't ruin the system but it does dampen the experience a bit if you're wanting the 80's arcade experience.

The programmers who made crap sounding notes with tia are horrible. There was no excuse for that.

No need to fight over 5200 and 8 bit comps which is better.. I think everyone can make up in thier own minds which is the way to go. And its great people use the 5200 and keep them alive.

And we got 7800 dk xm now which is dk to the max! Check that one out and see the awesome job Perry did.

For sound 7800 dk jr was the worst.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jinks

[Jaynz]

Jinks, one of the reasons that our 'new' versions can sound so much better is that they give extra memory and code-space and processing time for processing sound... memory that Atari did not make available for most 7800 carts 'way back when'. It wasn't that the programmers sucked, it was that they were limited in both time and resources in everything that they were doing. TIA is a raw sound output chip with NO mixing capabilities at all - all that had to be done via software, and Atari (as we now know) didn't want to pay the money for it.

[jetset]

The programmers who made crap sounding notes with tia are horrible. There was no excuse for that.

 

For sound 7800 dk jr was the worst.

 

 

Hmm....I don't remember DKJr being THAT bad...then again DK really sticks out because of the intro music. If only there were a way to shut that off lol!

 

 

No need to fight over 5200 and 8 bit comps which is better.. I think everyone can make up in thier own minds which is the way to go. And its great people use the 5200 and keep them alive.

 

I agree 100%. I didn't mean for my post(s) to make it sound like I was making an argument for one or the other. I have both (well an 800XL) and they both have their merits. It's just tired seeing the same old weak arguments how the 5200 is the same as a 400. That's plain...ignorant. Yes under the hood they're the same but there are dramatic differences. Haters gonna hate lol!

[Trebor]

Because it's HORRIBLE!

Fortunately it doesn't matter for many of the games...Asteroids and Galaga for example are tolerable. Donkey Kong though rattles the fillings in my back teeth. It doesn't ruin the system but it does dampen the experience a bit if you're wanting the 80's arcade experience.

 

Hey jetset,

 

I think a better way of putting it is people don't like the way TIA is used for many 7800 games as opposed to stating 7800 sound is horrible. TIA sound, even for a game like Donkey Kong, even without POKEY, could sound a heck of a lot better - very pleasing even:

 

http://youtu.be/lVPDkQl7Nl0

 

Obviously, not as good as POKEY - but nowhere near "horrible" when selections are made like demonstrated above.

[jetset]

Hey jetset,

 

I think a better way of putting it is people don't like the way TIA is used for many 7800 games as opposed to stating 7800 sound is horrible. TIA sound, even for a game like Donkey Kong, even without POKEY, could sound a heck of a lot better - very pleasing even:

 

http://youtu.be/lVPDkQl7Nl0

 

Obviously, not as good as POKEY - but nowhere near "horrible" when selections are made like demonstrated above.

 

What the $%#*& is that???? Donkey Kong VCS?!?!?!?!?! I must have missed this one! Is it just a hack for use with a Kroc cart or is it a full game available on cart?????? I WANT ONE!

[Atarifever]

Wow, this topic is still here going strong. I don't know why. No one wants to change their mind, no matter how much digging anyone does into what actually happened. Interview people involved. Get the papers from the direct source. Read tons of stuff from actual engineers. Go to the actual locations. Dig stuff out of dumpsters. Tally the actual sales books. Publish a book. Then, put all that out there and have someone say "Atari was like crazy dumb" as the entire counterpoint. This should go without saying, but the people who don't actually care about what happened, don't actually care what happened. It's like arguing with your Mom on Facebook that Bill Gates won't send her a million dollars for sharing a link. People with no critcal thinking skills won't see the value in any real research, because they don't see the need of it. Recieved wisdom and old wives tales are as valuable as documantation and research to a lot of people, and they will never see what is wrong with that.

 

So here's the story of Atari. Nolan Bushnell invented the 2600 in 1981, all by himself. He sold a bazillion units. Then he sold it to Warner Music. They quickly sold it to C64. Jim Tramiel at C64 wanted a computer company, so he broke all the Ataris in storage. When the NES came out in 1987, Atari was like "Holy crap!" and they tried to put the old Ataris back together. Before that, Nintendo offered to give them a bag of free money, but they caught it on fire and used it to burn down their arcade division. Then they released the Jaguar and said it was 64 bits even though it was a 16 bit handheld. They said that because they wanted it to be 64 bit like the C64.

--Source: A Butt.

[Trebor]

What the $%#*& is that???? Donkey Kong VCS?!?!?!?!?! I must have missed this one! Is it just a hack for use with a Kroc cart or is it a full game available on cart?????? I WANT ONE!

 

Try it here

 

Still WIP

 

That 7800/TIA sound not so "horrible" after all...

[jetset]

It's like arguing with your Mom on Facebook that Bill Gates won't send her a million dollars for sharing a link.

 

Wait...that really doesn't work?

[DracIsBack]

Obviously, not as good as POKEY - but nowhere near "horrible" when selections are made like demonstrated above.

 

I find the 7800 grates on me sound wise when it does high pitch music and loudly. Unfortunately, a lot of games seem to do that. For example, TOWER TOPPLERS music just screeches, as does DONKEY KONG'S. Too high, too loud.

 

I don't mind TIA when it's low and subtle. Like MIDNIGHT MUTANTS' music. Low, unobtrusive.

[DracIsBack]

What the $%#*& is that???? Donkey Kong VCS?!?!?!?!?! I must have missed this one! Is it just a hack for use with a Kroc cart or is it a full game available on cart?????? I WANT ONE!

 

Pretty awesome, eh?

[kool kitty89]

Wow, this topic is still here going strong. I don't know why. No one wants to change their mind, no matter how much digging anyone does into what actually happened. Interview people involved. Get the papers from the direct source. Read tons of stuff from actual engineers. Go to the actual locations. Dig stuff out of dumpsters. Tally the actual sales books. Publish a book. Then, put all that out there and have someone say "Atari was like crazy dumb" as the entire counterpoint. This should go without saying, but the people who don't actually care about what happened, don't actually care what happened. It's like arguing with your Mom on Facebook that Bill Gates won't send her a million dollars for sharing a link. People with no critcal thinking skills won't see the value in any real research, because they don't see the need of it. Recieved wisdom and old wives tales are as valuable as documantation and research to a lot of people, and they will never see what is wrong with that.

 

So here's the story of Atari. Nolan Bushnell invented the 2600 in 1981, all by himself. He sold a bazillion units. Then he sold it to Warner Music. They quickly sold it to C64. Jim Tramiel at C64 wanted a computer company, so he broke all the Ataris in storage. When the NES came out in 1987, Atari was like "Holy crap!" and they tried to put the old Ataris back together. Before that, Nintendo offered to give them a bag of free money, but they caught it on fire and used it to burn down their arcade division. Then they released the Jaguar and said it was 64 bits even though it was a 16 bit handheld. They said that because they wanted it to be 64 bit like the C64.

--Source: A Butt.

Sad but true . . . yet still humerous when put like that.

[AtariKid81]

By abandoning the 5200 so soon, Atari totally blew its reputation. And backwards compatibility was such a bad idea. The 2600 games sucked royally (:ducks:). By extending the life of the 2600 for so long, Atari came to be associated with obsolete technology and bad games. They needed to deprecate the 2600 and get people playing higher quality games ASAP.

 

What Atari should have done is redesign the 5200 controller to something simple and decent and drop the price to compete with Coleco. Focus on making technically superior games, market themselves as the technically superior system. Sure, they would have still lost the 1982-1986 generation, but they could have still managed a decent 2nd place showing, while maintaining their reputation.

 

Look at Nintendo on the other hand. They came 2nd place with N64, and a solid 3rd with Gamecube. But they managed to maintain their reputation during these eras and re-emerged with the Wii and reclaimed the #1 spot in the market.

 

The biggest mistake Atari made in the mid 80's was not giving a damn about their reputation.

I took the key parts of what you stated and would like to comment.

 

Backwards compatability was a must. I agree that most 2600 games sucked(ducks), but there were some good/clever games too. And most everyday/average Atari owners would have been greatly attracted by the backwards-compatability feature. Never forget who was purchasing these systems/games - it wasn't kids - it was Mom's and Dad's. Mom's and Dad's found Atari 2600 games to be as mind blowing and fun as your average 12 year-old felt about games available at the local Arcade. Advanced 5200 games, played with a TWO BUTTON, DIGITAL (CX-40 STYLE) JOYSTICK, would have gently attracted parents to "the next level". Analog joysticks were the answer to the question that nobody asked!

 

Next point: The system that would follow the 5200, needed to leave the 2600 & 5200 legacy behind. It needed to be a cutting-edge system

that paved its own course.

 

Finally, you are 100% correct to state that Warner/Atari(exec's) ultimately didn't give a rats ass about Atari's reputation. Everyone (starting with Nolan Bushnell imo) was looking to milk Atari for all it was worth. In their defense though, the purpose of owning a business is to make the most you can, while you can. If I was in any of "their" shoes, I may find myself making many of the same decisions!

Edited November 9, 2015 by AtariKid81

[high voltage]

Wow a new newbie reviving an old newbie thread, where will this end?

 

Let me tell you now, most 'every console in the world' games suck, be it NES, SNES, Genesis, Coleco, PC Engine, Gamate, maybe even on 2600.

Every console only has a handful of good games, take the NES, some good/clever games, but the rest out of the approx. 2000 game library..... stinkers. N64? ditto!

 

Finally, every head of company trying to get the most moneys out of their products, be it Proctor & Gamble or Nintendo, that's nothing new.

Edited November 9, 2015 by high voltage