Colecovision is 'third wave' meaning 'third generation'?

[high voltage]

Of course the Magnavox Odyssey is first generation, if you ignore that, you're just plain ignorant.

 

You don't get to redefine the word "ignorant".

 

Tell me: what generation console is a Jakks Pacific TV Plug And Play? If the Odyssey and Pong units are part of the "console generations", then so is the Jakks, and the Atari Flashback, and so on. This isn't a matter of "ignorance"; it is a matter of logical categorization.

 

I think you're getting a bit confused here, the Magnavox Odyssey was the ground-breaking, FIRST HOME console, hence 'first generation', Pong consoles brought the arcades home, another FIRST ground-breaking feature (well not really the first as such, that was Cragstan's 'Periscope Firing Range' in the late 60s, maybe the 'first generation' already happened in the 60s, but there you go) . P&Ps like Flashback, my TV-Boys, Jakks, Intellivision 25 etc are just 'best of's' of previous console games. Date of release and generation status are irrelevant of those.

Edited April 6, 2012 by high voltage

[MaximRecoil]

I think you're getting a bit confused here

 

You don't get to redefine the word "confused" either. The irony here is that the words you are trying to redefine to fit others on this thread; actually fit you perfectly according to their real definitions.

 

the Magnavox Odyssey was the ground-breaking, FIRST HOME console, hence 'first generation', Pong consoles brought the arcades home, another FIRST ground-breaking feature.

 

I've already pointed out why the Odyssey and other Pong-type consoles are fundamentally different than the e.g. VCS, Intellivision, and so on. When there is a fundamental difference, there is a logical reason for a separate category.

 

P&Ps like Flashback, my TV-Boys, Jakks, Intellivision 25 etc are just 'best of's' of previous console games. Date of release and generation status are irrelevant of those.

 

First of all, the bolded statement isn't even entirely correct (some of them contain arcade games, just as the Pong console contained an arcade game). Secondly, since the type of video games that a device plays is entirely irrelevant, I'll repeat:

 

What generation console is a Jakks Pacific TV Plug And Play? If the Odyssey and Pong units are part of the "console generations", then so is the Jakks, and the Atari Flashback, and so on. This isn't a matter of "ignorance"; it is a matter of logical categorization.

[cimerians]

"Generations of video games" needs a real official definition and I cant find it.

 

It seems to me they are simply going by Sony\Microsoft\nintendo release dates and not real technical capabilities of the systems or in other words "progress" (in some cases)

 

Going from the 2600 to the Colecovision was "progress", akin to the PS1 going to the Xbox 360.

 

So Electronic Games was correct. They defined it. Nobody else had an official say in the matter. Katz, Kunkel and Worley were the first and the most informed people in those days.

 

You cant bunch in the 5200 and the Colecovision with the Atari 2600. To me the Intellivision was almost like an in between console (Dreamcast or an SMS).

 

Yeah I'm biased, I bought that issue of EG when it first hit the stands. I'm an old timer.

This is a nice discussion to have but on this subject I'll never change my mind.

Edited April 7, 2012 by cimerians

[high voltage]

Exactly, professional magazines like EG and others are correct, people here like above you are getting confused about 'generations', and Wikipedia is wrong too. Ignorance is bliss for some.

Edited April 7, 2012 by high voltage

[MaximRecoil]

Exactly, professional magazines like EG and others are correct, people here like above you are getting confused about 'generations', and Wikipedia is wrong too. Ignorance is bliss for some.

 

I bolded the words that you continue to use despite not knowing what they mean.

 

An actual example of "ignorance" is you not knowing that there is a fundamental difference between dedicated hardware (e.g. Odyssey, Pong) and programmable (via swappable ROM) hardware (e.g. VCS, ColecoVision).

 

An actual example of "confusion" is you not understanding why that fundamental difference (after it is pointed out) is relevant. Another actual example of confusion is you not understanding that including the Odyssey in the same category as the VCS et al. means that you are lumping dedicated hardware together with programmable hardware, which means that the Jakks et al. logically must be included as well, else you are contradicting yourself.

 

So tell me: What generation console is a Jakks Pacific TV Plug And Play?

[high voltage]

I never included the Magnavox Odyssey with the Atari 2600 generation, another confusion of yours. The P&Ps I already explained.

 

[MaximRecoil]

I never included the Magnavox Odyssey with the Atari 2600 generation, another confusion of yours.

 

Is that a joke? You are claiming that the Odyssey was first generation and the VCS was second generation; which means that you are indeed including them in the same generations category.

 

The Odyssey was a first generation dedicated console. The VCS was a first generation programmable console. Two different categories/families.

 

And you still don't get to redefine the word "confusion".

 

The P&Ps I already explained.

 

And that "explanation" was already refuted, so feel free to try again.

Edited April 7, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Lendorien]

The following is how I think the generations break down for most people. Keep in mind that generations can and do overlap.

• First Generation - Dedicated consoles such as Pong, which were electronic TV games with the programming built in without interchangeable ROM carts.
  
• Second Generation - Marked by the introduction and use of programmable/interchangeable cartridges. Pre Eight Bit. Atari 2600, 5200, Intelivision, Colecovision, etc, fit here, despite their differences and the advances of the second wave of 2nd gen consoles.
  
• Third Generation - 8 bit consoles. Scrolling graphics become the norm for most games. Larger color pallets. The beginning is marked in some regards by the introduction of the Famicom. The Sega Master System, atari 7800 and possibly the Turbografx 16 fit here.
  
• Fourth Generation - 16 bit consoles. An incremental improvement over the last generation. Much larger color pallets. Stereo sound becomes standard. Experiments with CD-Roms
  
• Fifth Generation - Marked by the introduction of 3D as a major game engine factor. CD-Roms replace carts. (N64 excepted)
  
• Sixth Generation - Standardization of 3D. An incremental improvement over the previous generation. Experiments with hard drives. Introduction of online gaming as a major game factor.
  
• Seventh Generation - Online gaming and multimedia as an integrated part of the console is the norm. Hard drives become a (mostly) standard feature. Introduction of motion control systems.
  

Edited April 7, 2012 by Lendorien

[high voltage]

See that's the problem, second gen is not 'pre 8-bit', and the Coleco belongs to the 'next gen', and then comes the 4th gen NES, SMS, 7800. Unless you put Coleco into the Famicom category, that would work. Only 11 month release date between them (Coleco Aug 82, Famicom July 83).

Edited April 7, 2012 by high voltage

[NIAD]

Indeed Lendorien, the way you have it listed out above is pretty much spot on with the way it's generally accepted know-a-days and I've seen listed out on other websites. Is it 100% concrete or set in stone? No it isn't and you THANKFULLY stated so. There are just too many instances where things can become mudded or conflicts can come into play with this breakdown, here's one:

 

The ColecoVision uses a Zilog Z80a 8-bit processor as I'm sure you know all too well and scrolling graphics can be done rather nicely on the system, but takes some extra care by the programmer to get it right.

 

I, for one, will continue to stick with the way game systems were categorized from the Pre-Crash time period by the major publications of the time. I would have to think that if the system developers (Atari, Mattel, Coleco, GCE, Bally, etc.) had an issue with the categorizations they would have let these publications know... especially Atari.

[SoulBlazer]

Personaly, I've always considered the generations to be such:

 

First Generation -- Pong and the other TV units, and Oddesey

Second Generation -- early 8 bit systems (2600, 5200, Colecovision, INTV, etc.)

Third Generatiion -- later 8 bit systems, more powerfull and advanced (NES and SMS)

Forth Generation -- 16 bit systems (SNES, Genesis)

Fifth Generation -- 32 bit systems and early CD-ROM systems (Jaquar, Playstation, etc.)

Sixth Generation -- 64 bit systems and late CD-ROM systems (N64, PS2, Dreamcast, GC, etc.)

Seventh Generation -- modern systems (XBox 360, PS3, Wii)

 

There's defentily room to debate which system belongs in which generation, and the generations defentily overlap. There's clearly seperations you can make between groups of systems, though, and a good system of one generation may be sold well into another generation with games and upgrades.

[Ransom]

Here's the way I see it...

 

Generation the First: Pong consoles, Odyssey, etc.

Second generation: Channel F, Odyssey2, Atari 2600

Second and a half generation: Intellivision

Generation three: 5200, ColecoVision

Generation 4: SMS, NES

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

Generation 4.5: TG-16

Fifth generation: Genesis, SNES

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

Generation I-didn't-care-at-all-anymore: Playstation, etc.

Generation HeyThisIsCoolAgain: PS2, XBox, and some crap from Nintendo and Sega

Generation Damn-I-Lost-Interest-Again: PS3, XBoxInfiniteLoop, Wii Will Rock Your Grandma

 

[+5-11under]

Here's the way I see it...

 

Generation the First: Pong consoles, Odyssey, etc.

Second generation: Channel F, Odyssey2, Atari 2600

Second and a half generation: Intellivision

Generation three: 5200, ColecoVision

Generation 4: SMS, NES

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

Generation 4.5: TG-16

Fifth generation: Genesis, SNES

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

Generation I-didn't-care-at-all-anymore: Playstation, etc.

Generation HeyThisIsCoolAgain: PS2, XBox, and some crap from Nintendo and Sega

Generation Damn-I-Lost-Interest-Again: PS3, XBoxInfiniteLoop, Wii Will Rock Your Grandma

 

 

It's funny because it's true.

[Blues_Bloody]

 

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

 

 

It's funny because it's true.

 

Acting like the Saturn is an add on for the Genesis most certainly isn't true.

[cimerians]

Here's the way I see it...

 

Generation the First: Pong consoles, Odyssey, etc.

Second generation: Channel F, Odyssey2, Atari 2600

Second and a half generation: Intellivision

Generation three: 5200, ColecoVision

Generation 4: SMS, NES

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

Generation 4.5: TG-16

Fifth generation: Genesis, SNES

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

Generation I-didn't-care-at-all-anymore: Playstation, etc.

Generation HeyThisIsCoolAgain: PS2, XBox, and some crap from Nintendo and Sega

Generation Damn-I-Lost-Interest-Again: PS3, XBoxInfiniteLoop, Wii Will Rock Your Grandma

 

 

 

Thank you. Fantastic!

[NIAD]

Here's the way I see it...

 

Generation the First: Pong consoles, Odyssey, etc.

Second generation: Channel F, Odyssey2, Atari 2600

Second and a half generation: Intellivision

Generation three: 5200, ColecoVision

Generation 4: SMS, NES

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

Generation 4.5: TG-16

Fifth generation: Genesis, SNES

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

Generation I-didn't-care-at-all-anymore: Playstation, etc.

Generation HeyThisIsCoolAgain: PS2, XBox, and some crap from Nintendo and Sega

Generation Damn-I-Lost-Interest-Again: PS3, XBoxInfiniteLoop, Wii Will Rock Your Grandma

 

Now that is a brake down of generations that I can live with! :thumbsup:

 

I especially liked:

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

[Retro Rogue]

Here's the way I see it...

 

Generation the First: Pong consoles, Odyssey, etc.

Second generation: Channel F, Odyssey2, Atari 2600

Second and a half generation: Intellivision

Generation three: 5200, ColecoVision

Generation 4: SMS, NES

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

Generation 4.5: TG-16

Fifth generation: Genesis, SNES

The Lost Generation: CD-i, SuperGenesis32XPlusSaturnAddonMania, etc.

Generation I-didn't-care-at-all-anymore: Playstation, etc.

Generation HeyThisIsCoolAgain: PS2, XBox, and some crap from Nintendo and Sega

Generation Damn-I-Lost-Interest-Again: PS3, XBoxInfiniteLoop, Wii Will Rock Your Grandma

 

Now that is a brake down of generations that I can live with! :thumbsup:

 

I especially liked:

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

 

Not sure what precisely that means though. The 7800 project started up again in Sept. '85 before the NES was test marketed, and was certainly out way before the SMS.

 

Regarding what people have been saying on generations here - saying something adamantly here about your personal opinion doesn't make it correct. With historians, institutions, the IGDA-Preservation group, etc. 1st generation refers to the dedicated consoles of the 70's, including the Magnavox Odyssey. Not the "1st generation of microprocessor based consoles". It has always refered to consoles and marks the tracking of video game consoles as a whole.

 

The issue with the article and the confusion is that the idea of literal (scholarly) generational or era categorizations of consoles didn't start until much later (the 90's). Previously, every new console was marketed or reviewed as another "wave" or generation - not the same context. That sort of context is still used today actually in marketing. Add to this method of categorization based on bitness which was also introduced as a marketing concept, and you have even more confusion.

 

Now, the method of grouping all the pre-crash microprocessor based consoles in one generation (the second generation of consoles) is what I see causing a lot of the confusion in this thread as well. Simply because (as I personally agree with as well), it doesn't adequately describe the various sub-generations or "waves" in that group. Channel-F/2600/Studio II/Odyssey 2/Bally Professional/Intellivision represent that first wave. Atari 5200/Colecovision/Vectrex represent another wave. (Intellivision is usually considered part of that first wave because the later release date was simply because of the internal delay on the release). Now if we were going to group by "bitness", the first group and second group represent the first two waves of the "8-bit generation" with the 7800/NES/SMS representing the third wave of that generation. Then you can also try and add "years" to the generation mix which also creates issues of overlaps.

 

You can see how this gets complicated, especially when what Lendorien posted is indeed the most widely used method of grouping based on a combination of generations and "bitness". If we wanted to correct that listing (as in account for the multiple waves mentioned above that are sandwiched in to a single generation), you're talking about pushing the later now established generations up in number. What that means then is that all the talk about 7th generation (PS3/Wii/Xbox360) and 8th Generation (Wii U and whatever consoles Sony and Microsoft respond with) in the media and in marketing will now be in conflict as well.

[high voltage]

The NES is unimportant as a 'generation, you gotta use the Famicom's release date, maybe? And what about all the other Japanese consoles. Cassettevision and such. They belong in the generation genre as well.

 

BTW, Ralph Baer says the Odyssey is 'digital', and he called the brown box 'switch-programmable', is that relevant in any way?.

 

The 2nd Gen breakdown seems to be the correct version, in may ways.

Edited April 9, 2012 by high voltage

[Lendorien]

As I said, Generations can and do overlap. The lines are blury.

[NIAD]

Now that is a break down of generations that I can live with! :thumbsup:

 

I especially liked:

Generation 3.5 (AKA "Oh, shit, we missed the boat!"): 7800

 

Not sure what precisely that means though. The 7800 project started up again in Sept. '85 before the NES was test marketed, and was certainly out way before the SMS.

It a joke! You're supposed to be amused and laugh. Here, let me show you how.....

BTW, I corrected my misspelling of the word "break" in my quoted message.

 

The issue with the article and the confusion is that the idea of literal (scholarly) generational or era categorizations of consoles didn't start until much later (the 90's). Previously, every new console was marketed or reviewed as another "wave" or generation - not the same context.

Ahh, now that makes sense!

[Skylark68]

I always preferred B.A. (Before Atari 2600) and A.A. (After Atari 2600).

 

Makes things a lot easier.

 

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Skylark68

[flowmotion]

I'm surprised so many people at AtariAge of all places would put the 2600 and 5200 in the same "generation".

 

It's an interesting debate, but it's always bothered me that Wikipedia classified consoles this way, mostly because it's editorial and violates their own policies about Original Research.

 

However, I've never been able to devise an adequate substitute. There's always been consoles which were either ahead of their time or behind their time that don't neatly fit into the Sega-Nintendo-Sony axis. It's basically impossible to separate by raw capabilities, because some fanboy will object to some minor detail. But a strict yearly classification doesn't really work either.

[BillyHW]

Generation 0: Pongs, Odysseys

 

1st Generation: 2600, Odyssey2, Astrocade, Channel F, Intellivision

2nd gen: ColecoVision, Vectrex, 5200, SG-1000

3rd gen: NES/Famicom, 7800, SMS

4th gen: PC Engine/TurboGrafx (CD-ROM), Genesis (Sega CD, 32X), SNES, Neo Geo

5th gen: Jaguar (CD-ROM), 3D0, Saturn, PlayStation, Nintendo64

6th gen: Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, GameCube

7th gen: 360, Wii, PS3

8th gen: Wii U, ?, ?

 

The only problem with this list is that I think the Famicom and SG-1000 were released on the same day. But I guess you could say that the SG was very late in it's gen and the Fam was very early in it's gen. The Famicom was revolutionary and forward looking in it's design, and the SG is pretty much a ColecoVision in it's design, looking backwards.

 

Am I missing any?

[MaximRecoil]

Generation 0: Pongs, Odysseys

 

1st Generation: 2600, Odyssey2, Astrocade, Channel F, Intellivision

2nd gen: ColecoVision, Vectrex, 5200, SG-1000

3rd gen: NES/Famicom, 7800, SMS

4th gen: PC Engine/TurboGrafx (CD-ROM), Genesis (Sega CD, 32X), SNES, Neo Geo

5th gen: Jaguar (CD-ROM), 3D0, Saturn, PlayStation, Nintendo64

6th gen: Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, GameCube

7th gen: 360, Wii, PS3

8th gen: Wii U, ?, ?

 

The only problem with this list is that I think the Famicom and SG-1000 were released on the same day. But I guess you could say that the SG was very late in it's gen and the Fam was very early in it's gen. The Famicom was revolutionary and forward looking in it's design, and the SG is pretty much a ColecoVision in it's design, looking backwards.

 

Am I missing any?

 

That's a list that makes sense, though the Neo Geo AES is an anomaly. It was full-blown arcade hardware stuffed into a plastic housing and called a console. It wasn't outdated arcade hardware either, it was among the most powerful arcade hardware in the industry at the time (a little more powerful than Capcom's CPS-1 arcade hardware which Final Fight and Street Fighter II [WW, CE, and HF] ran on). That put it way ahead of its mainstream "16-bit" competition at the time (SNES, Genesis). In terms of 2D capabilities, even the Sega Saturn (known as a "2D powerhouse") can't quite match it.

Edited April 11, 2012 by MaximRecoil

[Atariboy]

Back in the day... the ColecoVision, Atari 5200 and Vectrex were referred to as "3rd Generation" or "Third Wave". Now-a-days, these system are classified as "2nd Generation" and why this change was made still baffles me.

 

It was created by people that think videogaming started in 1985.

 

Anyone that has given console gaming from that time even passing attention can tell you that the Atari 5200, Colecovision, and a few others represent a significant and distinct jump in capabilities from those that preceded them. Yet people that barely have given either generation any attention choose instead to minimize their importance to videogaming and lump them together as an afterthought.

 

1st generation are the dedicated consoles. 2nd generation were the first wave of reprogrammable consoles like the 2600 and Intellivision, and the 3rd generation is where things like the Colecovision clearly belong. The NES belongs to the 4th generation of videogaming.