Gunstar Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I have played mirax force on a ntsc machine i believe and it seems to work ok. OK. Did you play it on disk or tape? Thunderfox was also released on XE cartridge in the late 80's and that's what I have... the cartridge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ataridave Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Well I read the instructions and switching weapons looks pretty simple to me, I'll get this. @Gunstar-I'm still curious as to how you play Mirax Force, because-like me-you live in NTSC territory. Shoot, Tanium and Dawn Raider are both PAL-region games too. Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load. But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines. Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yautja Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Had to use the trainer file in order to make it to level 2... several times... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_g_tPfMclo - Y - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I tried to like Thunderfox, but I got tired of dying ever 3 seconds. It's a nice game, but you can tell it's a European shooter. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've found that these type of games just aren't my cup of tea. Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load. But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines. Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost?? Seriously, I'd like to know this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Playing it in NTSC could be tough as the speed could be off (never compared side to side so not sure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I tried to like Thunderfox, but I got tired of dying ever 3 seconds. It's a nice game, but you can tell it's a European shooter. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've found that these type of games just aren't my cup of tea. Quite simple, I long ago installed a PAL Antic chip in my computer and thus not only retain (as far as I can tell) 100% NTSC compatibility, but about 99% of PAL region games too. There are still a few PAL games that don't work, but it's the fault of the programmers who write the programs to specifically check for a PAL machine that those few games won't load. But, as far as Mirax Force is concerned, I played it many years ago (90's) on a strictly NTSC 130XE and never had a problem. Not all games that are PAL fail to work on NTSC machines, probably somewhere between 25-50% will work o.k. on NTSC machines. Awesome! How hard is it to install that chip, and how much would it cost?? Seriously, I'd like to know this as well. It's not like it's a big secret, a guy named Nir Dairy (or something to that effect) first tired this about 20 years ago and it has been discussed probably a 100 times here on AA over the years. I suprised there are those who still haven't heard of this mod. But, i am more than happy to help. It's quite simple, buy a PAL ANTIC chip from Best Electronics or B&C Computervisions (about $10-15 plus shipping) and swap out the NTSC ANTIC for the PAL. Of course if it's soldered in, you'll have to desolder the ANTIC and I would recommend installing a socket at that time. That's it! BUT keep in mind that you MUST have a monitor or TV that can accept the PAL region 50Hz signal, like commodore monitors and most modern HD TV's that still have composite or S-video jacks; there's a current thread that has a list of modern monitors/TV's that work well with 8-bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Ok that part I understand, but what I want to know is how it keeps 100% compatibilty (or nearly so) with NTSC games. That part doesn't make sense to me. Is the PAL Antic chip some sort of more advanced version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) The NTSC GTIA chip that all video (even from antic) eventually goes through maintains the compatiblity. I don't know all the details myself, I never studied up on it, but it works and that's all I need to know. Just don't ask why, even Atari engineers that designed the computer say it's supposed to be impossible, but it works and it works GREAT! I and many other have proof through experience. What I do know, is that ONLY the PAL Antic canbe inserted with excellent results, if you try putting just about ANY other PAL chips in an NTSC machine it won't work (though I have a 32-in-1 OS chip and PAL OS's work with no problem, but I've been told there's no difference between PAL and NTSC OS chips). One other thing I've been told (which could easily be verified or debunked by PAL owners; do NTSC programs run on PAL machines? Just run, I'm not asking about how WELL they run), is that there aren't any NTSC programs that check to make sure they are running on an NTSC machine, where as there are some PAL programs that do check to make sure they are running on PAL machines (these few don't work in NTSC even with PAL Antic). This "check" is made on the GTIA chip. In any case, it's the GTIA chip that is checked for compatiblity, and the GTIA chip that allows a PAL Antic to work in NTSC machines. Edited May 24, 2012 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Is there only one model of Antic chip for all the various Atari models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Is there only one model of Antic chip for all the various Atari models? Besides NTSC and PAL versions, I think so. The Atari dealers only list one of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenjennings Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 One other thing I've been told (which could easily be verified or debunked by PAL owners; do NTSC programs run on PAL machines? Just run, I'm not asking about how WELL they run),. . . Most NTSC programs should run fine (adequately) in PAL... if a program does not purposely check for pal and refuse to run, it should work. Any custom display list set up by an NTSC program would have fewer scan lines than the PAL limit, so there should be no problems there. PAL has more time during the vertical blank, so any NTSC VBI code should run. An NTSC program that runs a timer based on 60 frames/sec would just run the timer slower for PAL's 50 fps. The only thing I can think remotely possible is an edge case where DLIs may not change registers at the expected screen positions...maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Indeed, there are not many programs that check for PAL specifically, it is more a problem with graphics, speed of the game or a combination of the two... For example Dropzone was highly optimized for PAL machines, but when it was released here it was not changed and most people in the states were not aware what a great game it was. (There is an article on Atarimania with the author explaining this). Another example is Elektraglide, it's a PITA the play on NTSC but works ok on PAL all due to timing. there are also a number of games (that i don't recall right now) that the graphics just end up garbled and you can't play Edited May 25, 2012 by orpheuswaking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Indeed, there are not many programs that check for PAL specifically, it is more a problem with graphics, speed of the game or a combination of the two... For example Dropzone was highly optimized for PAL machines, but when it was released here it was not changed and most people in the states were not aware what a great game it was. (There is an article on Atarimania with the author explaining this). Another example is Elektraglide, it's a PITA the play on NTSC but works ok on PAL all due to timing. there are also a number of games (that i don't recall right now) that the graphics just end up garbled and you can't play What you say is true, I remember playing games like Elektraglide and The Last V8 when they were released by mastertronic in the U.S. and always wondering why they made the games so damn difficult, I could never even make it past the first levels unless I was absolutely perfect, the games sucked due to a lack of time (time running too fast on NTSC machines). BUT, now that I have the PAL Antic installed which reduces the refresh rate to 50Hz, and suddenly both of those games are very playable and very fun. They have turned into favorites of mine. This mod (PAL Antic in NTSC machine) does have the effect of slightly slowing down some NTSC games, but it generally has no adverse effects, most games become a bit easier, sometimes it's a bit strange to listen to the slightly slower music, but I've gotten used to it. the difference with NTSC games is so slight it really doesn't effect playing games at all, in fact, the only difference I really notice is music playing slightly slower than I was used to with the games, but it doesn't take long to get used too, and the advantage of being able to play all those great PAL games more than makes up for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You need to have both ANTICs in the machine, and make them switchable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Games , like this, also Mirax Force and other crap, show the unexperienced coders, and how they managed the "standard" features on the A8. Those are not really games. Just tries to make a game and sell it. I wouldn't even wonder , if such games made people decide to buy another computer. Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64, because the machine had enough resources left to add all the special features... Drop Zone still shows how things have to go with charmode on the A8... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You need to have both ANTICs in the machine, and make them switchable That would cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64 No, you wouldn't. As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64 No, you wouldn't. Ofcourse you do. As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8. Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64 No, you wouldn't. Ofcourse you do. Armalyte is significantly more complicated than you, as a non-coder who has no experience of the C64, apparently believe it to be. Had you said "games like Delta" which doesn't have a sorting multiplexer and relies on similar sprite recycling to Thunderfox and so forth, that'd be about right. As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8. Really? Mirax Force and Oxygene are both better examples, yes - although if i had a free choice of games using this particular form of sprite recycling i'd go for Humanoid personally, it isn't a walkover but has a shallower difficulty curve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Because, with the same "amount of coding Knowledge" you've been able to build games like Armalyte on the C64 No, you wouldn't. Ofcourse you do. Armalyte is significantly more complicated than you, as a non-coder who has no experience of the C64, apparently believe it to be. Had you said "games like Delta" which doesn't have a sorting multiplexer and relies on similar sprite recycling to Thunderfox and so forth, that'd be about right. It is more complex in the gameplay, but similar to the usage of the hardware (fullstop). You comments on my "not active coding on the C64" is superfluous. I'm not sure why you defend this fact on that contrary side. There is the clean reapeatable usage of the hardware abilities on the C64, against the much more complex handling of the PM graphics, particular for this type of games. You'd have to write much more code to move all around than to handle a level on the C64. That's why games like Armalyte don't exist on the A8, and that's why they only move the PM objects in horizontal directions, or use single colour objects.. As fpr Thunderfox, it's okay but as has been pointed out there are better examples of the genre on the A8. Really? Mirax Force and Oxygene are both better examples, yes - although if i had a free choice of games using this particular form of sprite recycling i'd go for Humanoid personally, it isn't a walkover but has a shallower difficulty curve. Mirax Crap is only intersting due to the digital speech. There's no real game, except some helpless gameplay. Oxygene, ok, not a cause for kicking the whole thing out of the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 It is more complex in the gameplay, but similar to the usage of the hardware (fullstop). Except they're only similar in the very basic sense that they reuse the hardware sprites and this wasn't what you said previously either; you reckoned that the same amount of coding knowledge required to produce games like Thunderfox on the Atari 8-bit would translate into games like Armalyte on the C64 and that simply isn't the case. I'm not sure why you defend this fact on that contrary side. There is the clean reapeatable usage of the hardware abilities on the C64, against the much more complex handling of the PM graphics, particular for this type of games. And there you go again... what's "much more complex" about it? As someone who doesn't code on the A8 and has never coded on the C64, you're basing this claim on what exactly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 This is an Atari forum. Very few here give a rat's ass what the C64 can or can't do. Only what the A8 can or can't do. So drop all the arguing over the Commode 64. Go to a Commode 64 site and do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+orpheuswaking Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 This is an Atari forum. Very few here give a rat's ass what the C64 can or can't do. Only what the A8 can or can't do. So drop all the arguing over the Commode 64. Go to a Commode 64 site and do that. On the flip side calling it commode makes you appear as intelligent as a 13 year old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) uld This is an Atari forum. Very few here give a rat's ass what the C64 can or can't do. Only what the A8 can or can't do. So drop all the arguing over the Commode 64. Go to a Commode 64 site and do that. On the flip side calling it commode makes you appear as intelligent as a 13 year old Well, obviously you aren't that intelligent since you don't realize that intelligence has NOTHING to do with age...now wisdom, maturity, etc. that does... And it was just a joke, sorry I forgot to use a smiley...Oh, and by the way, I think I am rather smart, becuase my commode statement was made to extract the exact type of response you posted! I knew it get under some people's skin and push the right buttons! Edited May 26, 2012 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Knock it off everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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