Joystick Jolter Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe that most collectors have been passing up on the "REAL" rare Atari cartridges. People spend more money freely on cartridges that come up high on the Atariage Rarity List than they are willing to pay for prototypes. I really hopes this gets all collectors to thinking about this. Who could possibly think that there are more "Pacman" (just to go to the ridiculous) prototypes or eproms available that there are cartridges of Halloween. In my wildest dreams I doubt that there are many prototypes that are more available than most of the 8's, 9's or even 10's on the rarity list. How often do you see them on eBay. I'd really like and hope that this will bring a deep discussion with maybe the "World's Most Informed Prototype Expert" Matt and the rest of the Atariage gang. I hope everyone joins in with their 2 cents or even their 20 dollars worth. This is an area that I believe many Atari collectors are letting slip through their fingers. Matt might not like the fact that this could open a few more peoples eyes on his "great" thinking, but it is a subject that needs some discussion. Sorry for the long drawn out message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I don't really know what it is that you are trying to discuss (?) (If protos are underpriced or overpriced). Prototypes are prototypes...roms that were created first (though not always playable). This makes them one of a kind...not a single chip in the world has the same history attached to it. Not every collector is interested in protos, simply because they are not part of the history that they are interested in...the games themselves (in the final released version). My feelings is that protos deserve to be dumped (so that the rest of us can see how the code "evolved" into the final product). To me, the chip itself is akin to a museum piece...part of Atari history...with the program within deserving to be archived before the eprom fails and it is lost forever. As far as protos showing up often on ebay...pshaaw right. The majority (nearly all) the chips that are labelled as being a prototype usually end up to be just a pirate dump (or even blank)...which were very plentiful even "back in the day" (since rom dumping equipment could be had for about $100 or so, and eprom burners as well). Since actual protos usually had revision numbers or other such markings, and many of the original programmers can be contacted for questions of authenticity, many of the ones that appear out of the blue are easily debunked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I am not exactly sure what you are getting at either Anthony, although I am a crazed prototype collector just like Matt, I don't agree that a proto of Pac-Man should be expensive. I just sold a very rare prototype on eBay, mind you it only went to $375.00,- but that is still no pocket change, so what exactly are you trying to say ? BTW, you never answered my PM about your protos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sly Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I am not a prototype collector but I can see why others are interested. I certainly have a few that I came across in the wild. I believe more than one of a proto cart rarely surfaces. I know sometimes they do surface as doubles but this phenomena makes it very hard for me to justify collecting or trading for protos because of their uniqeness. How do you determine a value? Furthermore, I don't like to collect these because it's hard to tell what's authentic. I believe it wouldn't take much to duplicate a lab loaner which I believe counterfeiting is a threat to value and how much one is willing to pay. This makes it hard for me to justify paying big $$$. Then the next question is how much??? No price guide for help, just a matter of opinions. $3000 or $300 for Polo? Many collectors feel a lab loaner of Pac Man like the released version, is not really worth alot. Collectors are looking for unique titles that were never released or different game play from originals. Many hardly got started like McDonalds...all a matter of opinion to determine value. I feel there is a huge amount of interest because protos are really a world we are just beginning to understand. What made these companies tick? Who programmed it, how did they do it....... so many questions.... rumors...so little answers 20 years later. For me protos are a very interesting, fascinating part of gaming history but I probably will never be a proto collector unless I hit the lottery. I feel most of the stuff has probably been discovered already. If someone flashed big enough $$$ I probably would sell what I had, however, I ran into protos in the wild so I never payed big $$$. Just kind of nice to have a few in your collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe more than one of a proto cart rarely surfaces. I know sometimes they do surface as doubles but this phenomena makes it very hard for me to justify collecting or trading for protos because of their uniqeness. How do you determine a value? Actually that is not correct, when a game goes into QA or to marketing & sales, many many copies are made not just one. This was true then and it's even more true now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Cost of the trip: $300 Cost of the game: $5 The look on people's faces when a rumored "vaporware" game turns out to be real: priceless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe more than one of a proto cart rarely surfaces. I know sometimes they do surface as doubles but this phenomena makes it very hard for me to justify collecting or trading for protos because of their uniqeness. How do you determine a value? Actually that is not correct, when a game goes into QA or to marketing & sales, many many copies are made not just one. This was true then and it's even more true now. That would be more applicable to "lab loaners", right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 They are prototypes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sly Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Okay sorry CPUWIZ your probably right, however, in comparison to release games, even rare released games it's really hard to collect prototypes. At least the released stuff there's enough material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joystick Jolter Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 What I was trying to bring out is that, the real "RARE" pieces are prototypes(even finished product). And that I see people paying lots more for off the shelf games than they are willing to pay for prototypes. Not today maybe, but some day soon, somebody is going to come to the natural conclusion that prototypes are rarer than rare. And as far as counterfeit goes, there are some available with documentation. Few and far between though. I sold some last year complete with the paperwork direct from Atari to me. Would you not think that a piece like that truly is museum type in the future. And don't kid yourself there will be Atari pieces in many museums in the future. It was and still is a large part of the electronic world. Hope I made more sense this time, Anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Yes, that makes more sense, however there will be many people who will disagree with you. I am not one of them, in fact I got three of those protos from you with documentation and I love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesman85 Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 i don't collect 2600 protos, but i do collect protos for several other systems. almost any given proto is rarer than any given production game. even if a lot of protos were made for one game for testing etc. many of them were erased and used for protos of new games. a lot of people don't collect protos because they are a very expensive habbit, and also the fear of buying something fake. more people are hardcore about getting a complete collection and would be willing to pay more money for one of the rare games that they need. you would think that the rarer a game is the more expensive it would be, but thats not exactly true. that would suck anyway because then all protos would be $1000+ since some games go for that much even though they aren't as rare as most protos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Yes, that makes more sense, however there will be many people who will disagree with you. Maybe because you can't get them sealed, boxed or with mint labels? Seriously: IMO it seems logical that prototypes should have much more value than any rare game. But then: I'm no collector... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FND Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe more than one of a proto cart rarely surfaces. I know sometimes they do surface as doubles but this phenomena makes it very hard for me to justify collecting or trading for protos because of their uniqeness. How do you determine a value? Actually that is not correct, when a game goes into QA or to marketing & sales, many many copies are made not just one. This was true then and it's even more true now. But then again in the early days EPROM's were expensive and re-used this greatly reduces the amount available, I also think this is the reason that early games are harder to find in prototype/loaner form. FND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Maybe because you can't get them sealed, boxed or with mint labels? That would be very weird to have a lab-loaner box but I have one or two that have absolutely mint labels. But then again in the early days EPROM's were expensive and re-used this greatly reduces the amount available, I also think this is the reason that early games are harder to find in prototype/loaner form. I sort of agree with you on that one but does that make my Pac-Man lab-loaner extra rare ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloatedmonkey Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Of course, some of us like playing the games more than having them sit in a box. Most of us only go for prototypes of games that were never released. The rest may be suited for a museum, but not for the average person's collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I would say prototypes for the most part are overrated. Most Atari protos seem to have settled to a justified reasonable level. If its a released game AND no major differences..who cares? Ok well if you have documentation or a nice label then thats something different. What I really hate are proto boards without cases. Unless its Save Mary or another unreleased game its just about worthless in my book. Of course unique boards are interesting to some and 3rd parties are cool. Just be glad its not like the NES proto market where any released proto on a common proto board without a case or documentation can fetch 100-300 dollars. The price has come down in recent days but still that just silly. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I don't have any real interest in collecting protos myself. I'll leave that up to the experts. On the other hand, if someone wants to dump the proto, burn it onto EPROM, slap it into a casing, and stick a nice looking label on the thing, then I'm all over that sucker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I don't have any real interest in collecting protos myself. I'll leave that up to the experts. On the other hand, if someone want's to dump the proto, burn it onto EPROM, slap it into a casing, and stick a nice looking label on the thing, then I'm all over that sucker. Amen. I'd rather own that than a real prototype any day. Much more practical and much better looking to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I'd really like and hope that this will bring a deep discussion with maybe the "World's Most Informed Prototype Expert" Matt Did someone summon the almighty Tempest? Hmm.. alot of interesting discussion going on here. Let me put my two cents in. Many collectors feel a lab loaner of Pac Man like the released version, is not really worth alot. Collectors are looking for unique titles that were never released or different game play from originals. This is very true. Even I tend not to care too much about prototypes for released games unless they differ in some way. Even though they may be rarer than alot of 9's and 10's (just how many Pac-Man lab loaners are there out there?), I don't find myself partricularly interested in spending alot of money on them. To me unless they offer some difference over the released version of the game (or were never released) they're really not all that interesting. Now does this mean they should be worth less than 8's 9's and 10's? The law of Atari rarity (made that one up myself) would tend to say no, but it's really hard to convince someone that a Pac-Man prototype should be worth $150 just because it's a prototype. Unless that person is a hard core prototype collector all they see is the same 25 cent Pac-Man cart they own but on EPROMs. Yippe! Now this doesn't mean I don't own a ton of "Final Version" prototypes. Most of the were acquired because they had no dates on them and until you dump 'em you have no way of knowing. However I've always loved the Atari 5200 and I'm collecting prototypes for every game, that includes prototypes that are the same as the final. So I guess even I do put some value on them. That would be very weird to have a lab-loaner box but I have one or two that have absolutely mint labels. Actually prototype boxes are even more collectable than the prototypes themselves in many cases. I'd love to get my hands on some prototype boxes... I've also seen prototypes with production labels on them (5200 Asteroids for one) so this does happen as well. What I really hate are proto boards without cases. This used to bother me too at first, but now days I'm not picky. I collect the prototypes for the content not the container. Many of the best prototypes have come on labeless EPROM boards, so you just never know. Of course I'd take a lab label over a bare board anyday if I had a choice. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCroniger Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I like the protos. If possible, I'd like to get one from each of the major companies. I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather have a really rare released game, rather than the proto. I'm just thankful most of the collectors dump them and either release them (Snow White) or release the Rom (Kabobber). That's a lot more important than getting a centerpiece to my collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buyatari Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I have a couple prototype boxes Rush Hour Dumbo hmm maybee thats it. Anyway I'd trade a proto cart for a box anyday. I am with Tempest these just can't be beat. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I hope you guys know that I wasn't talking about proper prototype boxes like Dukes Of Hazzard, Donald and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joystick Jolter Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 Just for information sake. I have put up to prototypes, Krull and Battlezone for the 2600. Complete with the paperwork. I have for the first time put reserves on them and if they don't meet the reserves they will stay in my possession for my two grandsons. The reserves on either aren't over $100. I have a couple more for next week. One of them is Data Age Frankensteins Monster. I doubt there are more than a few of these around, as Data Age was not the easiest company to deal with. I'd like to thank everyone for a real informative string. Thanks Anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Actually I have a Frankenstein's Monster proto with the plain white box and typed instructions. It's the only "complete" prototype I have. What was the date on the Battlezone proto? Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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