Were Some ColecoVision Titles Just Poorly Programmed?

[boxpressed]

I've been playing with my new ColecoVision and Atari 5200 multicarts lately. I don't mean for this thread to turn into a CV vs. 5200 discussion because I think both systems are great with their own individual merits. I have noticed, though, that the CV has a kind of Jekyll and Hyde personality, with some games being clean, smooth, and beautiful, while others have washed-out and jerky graphics. 5200 games seem to run at 60 fps, while some CV games seem to run at half that (e.g. Time Pilot, Subroc, Buck Rogers, Slither, Victory, etc.). However, the Atarisoft CV titles are almost as good as if not better than their 5200 counterparts: Pac-Man (proto), Joust (proto), Galaxian, Jungle Hunt, Defender, Centipede. I think CollectorVision's Mario Bros. is far superior to 5200 Mario Bros.

 

So, were the Atarisoft programmers (and modern homebrew programmers) just better than everyone else? Or did it have something to do with hardware limitation, including the size of the ROM (which would advantage homebrewers)? I know that the 5200 and 8-bits had much superior screen-scrolling capabilities (just compare Zaxxon versions).

 

I just think that some games deserve a "do-over" on the CV because I suspect that the stock hardware is capable of a lot more.

[cimerians]

Interesting point.

 

Montezuma's Revenge needs a do-over for me.

 

Opcode???

 

 

I was soo disappointed in the CV version after playing the Atari 5200 and the C64 version of the game back when they came out. It didnt help that I played the 5200 version first.

[GroovyBee]

Any project = Time, Quality, Money - Pick two

[ColecoDan]

in some thread here Opcode already had picked all the games he was going to code for the rest of his life. So your probably better off learning how to code and develope it yourself or look for other programmers and beg them.

[Pixelboy]

From what you're saying, I believe It's all a matter of scrolling. The CV cannot do smooth scrolling (like the NES and other more advanced consoles can) so the early CV titles like Time Pilot and Cosmic Avenger had choppy scrolling.

 

Over time, programmers were able to implement smooth scrolling via clever programming. The Atarisoft titles like Defender and the unreleased Moon Patrol are good examples of this.

 

So there's a chronological aspect to this issue. For the earlier CV titles, the programmers hadn't mastered the hardware yet, and Coleco's programmers in particular relied on the BIOS functions a lot.

[BillyHW]

5200 Zaxxon scrolls much (much) better than the ColecoVision version, but I think the ColecoVision version is superior in other respects.

 

The CV Pac-Man prototype is also better than the 5200 version.

 

CV's inferior scrolling hardware is well-known. Many of the games (of that entire era) do feel like rush jobs. Some of the 5200 games were A8 ports too, so didn't require as much time to develop maybe.

[cOLeCoHiTMan]

I would imagine the programmers had a bigger time constraint to get titles out back then. One company didn't get an entire year + to make 1 title to support the company.

[+Allan]

5200 Zaxxon scrolls much (much) better than the ColecoVision version, but I think the ColecoVision version is superior in other respects.

 

The CV Pac-Man prototype is also better than the 5200 version.

 

CV's inferior scrolling hardware is well-known. Many of the games (of that entire era) do feel like rush jobs. Some of the 5200 games were A8 ports too, so didn't require as much time to develop maybe.

 

Many of the early 5200 games were completely rewritten. Games like Centipede, Missile Command, Pac-man, Space Invaders. Later games were developed for the 8-bit computers and 5200 at the same time. I think Atari realized that some of the early 8-bit games were done poorly so they had different programmers re-write the games for the 5200.

 

Allan

[boxpressed]

From what you're saying, I believe It's all a matter of scrolling. The CV cannot do smooth scrolling (like the NES and other more advanced consoles can) so the early CV titles like Time Pilot and Cosmic Avenger had choppy scrolling.

 

Over time, programmers were able to implement smooth scrolling via clever programming. The Atarisoft titles like Defender and the unreleased Moon Patrol are good examples of this.

 

So there's a chronological aspect to this issue. For the earlier CV titles, the programmers hadn't mastered the hardware yet, and Coleco's programmers in particular relied on the BIOS functions a lot.

 

You're right about that, I think. When the playfield is static, CV games usually meet or exceed their 5200 counterparts. However, vertical scrolling games on the CV are pretty bad. Bump 'n' Jump is okay, while Frontline is terrible.

[Pixelboy]

You're right about that, I think. When the playfield is static, CV games usually meet or exceed their 5200 counterparts. However, vertical scrolling games on the CV are pretty bad. Bump 'n' Jump is okay, while Frontline is terrible.

 

Yeah, scrolling in increments of 8 pixels rarely looks good, except when it's fast, like in Spy Hunter and Bump 'n Jump.

[opcode]

Atarisoft paid some of the best Z80 video game programmers (in the US) from the time to make CV ports. Coleco on the other hand hired mostly inexpensive people, with very little video game experience. They were usually better in the art department than programming. So you are right, most Coleco games looked better than they played (in terms of smoothness at least).

[BillyHW]

5200 Zaxxon scrolls much (much) better than the ColecoVision version, but I think the ColecoVision version is superior in other respects.

 

The CV Pac-Man prototype is also better than the 5200 version.

 

CV's inferior scrolling hardware is well-known. Many of the games (of that entire era) do feel like rush jobs. Some of the 5200 games were A8 ports too, so didn't require as much time to develop maybe.

 

Many of the early 5200 games were completely rewritten. Games like Centipede, Missile Command, Pac-man, Space Invaders. Later games were developed for the 8-bit computers and 5200 at the same time. I think Atari realized that some of the early 8-bit games were done poorly so they had different programmers re-write the games for the 5200.

 

Allan

 

5200 Pac-Man I think was similar to the A8. Both inferior to ColecoVision proto.

 

I think 5200 Ms. was worse than A8 and C64 for some reason.

[BillyHW]

From what you're saying, I believe It's all a matter of scrolling. The CV cannot do smooth scrolling (like the NES and other more advanced consoles can) so the early CV titles like Time Pilot and Cosmic Avenger had choppy scrolling.

 

Over time, programmers were able to implement smooth scrolling via clever programming. The Atarisoft titles like Defender and the unreleased Moon Patrol are good examples of this.

 

So there's a chronological aspect to this issue. For the earlier CV titles, the programmers hadn't mastered the hardware yet, and Coleco's programmers in particular relied on the BIOS functions a lot.

 

You're right about that, I think. When the playfield is static, CV games usually meet or exceed their 5200 counterparts. However, vertical scrolling games on the CV are pretty bad. Bump 'n' Jump is okay, while Frontline is terrible.

 

Horizontal scrolling in Cosmic Avenger was also nothing to write home about. (You see some more of that choppy vertical scrolling in Star Force for SG-1000 which was similar to the ColecoVision.)

 

What is Zaxxon...diagonal scrolling? It is also was totally not smooth, whereas the 5200 version was super-smooth.

 

That being said, the scrolling on CV was not so bad that you could not live with it, and I feel that the CV games had other merits that made them overall better than 5200 counterparts.

[+Allan]

 

5200 Pac-Man I think was similar to the A8. Both inferior to ColecoVision proto.

 

I think 5200 Ms. was worse than A8 and C64 for some reason.

 

It is similar but I believe a rewrite. Ms. Pacman is exactly the same on both the 5200 and the 8-bit. It was developed by GCC who did the arcade Ms. Pac man.

 

Allan

[BillyHW]

5200 Pac-Man I think was similar to the A8. Both inferior to ColecoVision proto.

 

I think 5200 Ms. was worse than A8 and C64 for some reason.

 

It is similar but I believe a rewrite. Ms. Pacman is exactly the same on both the 5200 and the 8-bit. It was developed by GCC who did the arcade Ms. Pac man.

 

Allan

 

Then I misspoke. The C64 version of Ms. is superior to both of them. And the CV Pac proto is the best version (of that era).

[Jess Ragan]

With the 5200, you (usually) got strong arcade translations... no more, no less. The ColecoVision, on the other hand, either whiffed its conversions or improved upon them. Time Pilot and Mr. Do! were stiff and kludgy, but Ladybug added that extremely fun vegetable harvest, and Frenzy is a lot more exciting thank to improved animation and an intense soundtrack. (Sure you lose Evil Otto's voice, but I think it's a fair trade-off.)

 

The big selling point of the ColecoVision was that it brought the arcade experience home... heck, you even find that claim on most of the game boxes, inside an exploding yellow graphic. However, I never thought the ColecoVision's arcade ports were really all that close until Opcode came into the picture. They always felt like they took creative liberties with the source material, for good or ill. There's also a lack of fluidity common in Coleco's own games, but not necessarily those from third parties, suggesting that the ColecoVision is capable of better but just wasn't properly utilized.

[BillyHW]

With the 5200, you (usually) got strong arcade translations... no more, no less. The ColecoVision, on the other hand, either whiffed its conversions or improved upon them. Time Pilot and Mr. Do! were stiff and kludgy, but Ladybug added that extremely fun vegetable harvest, and Frenzy is a lot more exciting thank to improved animation and an intense soundtrack. (Sure you lose Evil Otto's voice, but I think it's a fair trade-off.)

 

The big selling point of the ColecoVision was that it brought the arcade experience home... heck, you even find that claim on most of the game boxes, inside an exploding yellow graphic. However, I never thought the ColecoVision's arcade ports were really all that close until Opcode came into the picture. They always felt like they took creative liberties with the source material, for good or ill. There's also a lack of fluidity common in Coleco's own games, but not necessarily those from third parties, suggesting that the ColecoVision is capable of better but just wasn't properly utilized.

 

I agree on Frenzy. The ColecoVision port is better than the arcade original. It was nice to have the voices in 5200 Berzerk, but it was also nice to have that cool soundtrack for CV Frenzy. You make a lot of good points.

[atarilovesyou]

Interesting point.

 

Montezuma's Revenge needs a do-over for me.

 

Opcode???

 

 

I was soo disappointed in the CV version after playing the Atari 5200 and the C64 version of the game back when they came out. It didnt help that I played the 5200 version first.

 

Maybe all it would take is a quick hack to 'somehow' slow it down! I LOVE this game, and even with it's ridiculously fast pace (compared to the awesome Atari 800 version) I enjoyed it. But I would really like to see it slowed down to the speed it was meant to be played...but then, who knows? Maybe it wouldn't be so difficult and I wouldn't find it as fun. Something tells me I would still love it!

 

Anybody think this could be done?

[BillyHW]

I tried Montezuma on CV emulator before and was like, WTF? Why the heck is it so fast? Do other versions play at a normal speed then?

 

I played it a few times to give it a chance but then gave up. It's awful.

[Jess Ragan]

I don't remember the ColecoVision version being THAT bad, although I did notice subtle details being absent, like the way Panama Joe flails helplessly after he's been flattened from a long fall. At any rate, I don't think Opcode needs to bother with it; he's got enough projects on his plate. I suspect that the time interval between frames could be lengthened a bit by a programmer who knows ASM, which... uh, wouldn't be me, but I'm sure he exists somewhere.

[ChuckH]

You can use an ADAM emulator with Montezuma's Revenge and it plays slower. The video runs at 50 MHZ instead of 60 MHZ therefore the slow down. It does run pretty fast on the CV.

 

I tried it on MESS with MSX emulator and it appears to be the exact game. Play and graphics wise. MSX runs at 50 MHZ also and it appears to be the same speed as ADAM. Versions for Atari 5200 and Atari 800 appear to be the same but inferior graphics and run at what looks to be 50 MHZ too.

 

OK, one more edit. I tried MR on Sega Master System. This port seems to have the best graphics and the game play is good too.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChuckH

[cimerians]

Oh I was partially kidding that I wanted Opcode to re-do it. I just 'yelled' his name out to emphasize the good work he does and he would be my first choice for doing stuff like this etc etc

 

The speed in Montezuma wasn't too bad since I'm pretty good at the game but with the CV controller it IS brutal. For me it was more visually.

[NIAD]

As far as Coleco made ports of arcade games that they licensed, there were numerous hurdles that were faced by the In-House or Outsourced programmer(s):

 

Not having access to the game's source code

Having to play the actual arcade game while someone took video of the play session in order to document the game due to not having the source code.

Time constraints placed on the programmer(s) by Coleco

Due to these time constraints, not having enough time to test the games and therefore make necessary adjustments and improvements.

Trying to keep the game in the 16K and under range, even though they had up to 32K available to them, due to the higher cost of chips.

The old learning curve when developing games for a new or newer system. By 1984, you can see how much the programmers had improved (Spy Hunter, Tapper, etc.) and chip costs must have come down as well since more games were using the full 32K of rom space available to them.

 

Sure there are plenty of other reasons, but as Opcode pointed out about AtariSoft's CV titles, they has some very knowledgeable programmers develop those titles and if these same programmers would have worked on Time Pilot or some of the other games you mentioned, I'm sure it would have been a completely different story.

 

Don't necessarily agree with you about SubRoc, Slither and Mr. Do!, but then again, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

As far as the Atari 5200, while there are some nice games on that system, I still prefer most of the CV versions where there are games that were released for both. Again, eye of the beholder.

Edited June 4, 2012 by NIAD

[atarilovesyou]

I tried Montezuma on CV emulator before and was like, WTF? Why the heck is it so fast? Do other versions play at a normal speed then?

 

I played it a few times to give it a chance but then gave up. It's awful.

 

Yeah, this is one of those cases when you really wonder who the hell was playtesting this thing: "I dunno, fellas, but doesn't the game play a little FAST to you?"...a little? Shit's light-speed! I still play it, I really enjoy the concept and it's a fun go but the speed is just stupid. You're spending more time fighting the controls than you are 'playing' the game. I'm pretty pleased that I made it through the first dungeon.

[NIAD]

I tried Montezuma on CV emulator before and was like, WTF? Why the heck is it so fast? Do other versions play at a normal speed then?

 

I played it a few times to give it a chance but then gave up. It's awful.

 

Yeah, this is one of those cases when you really wonder who the hell was playtesting this thing: "I dunno, fellas, but doesn't the game play a little FAST to you?"...a little? Shit's light-speed! I still play it, I really enjoy the concept and it's a fun go but the speed is just stupid. You're spending more time fighting the controls than you are 'playing' the game. I'm pretty pleased that I made it through the first dungeon.

What's great about emulators such as ADAMem, MESS, BlueMSX, etc. is that you can play around with how fast the emulation of the ColecoVision will run at (ie: in Virtual ADAM, you can change the emulation speed of the Z80 from 0MHz all the way up to 4MHz) although you will not want to over or under do it as it will eventually cause problems with the game you are playing. ADAMem/Virtual ADAM even allows one to choose between 50Hz-PAL or 60Hz-NTSC format (not sure off the top of my head about the other emulators), so there are numerous options available to emulator users that will change the gameplay.

 

For the real console players, it's just something we have to acclimate ourselves to unfortunately as Montezuma's Revenge is a great game otherwise.