Selling 'Homebrew' games in Rom form?

[Games For Your Intellivision]

D1K is the 'demo' of D2K......it is the cheaper alternative, and demonstrates the quality of the programming in d2k.

 

Unless the truth wasn't told, 300 copies of the Intelligentvision version of D1K sold out in 2 days....and I know a bunch of people who wanted a copy but didn't get one.

 

Just the fact that Intellivision games like Stonix, 4-Tris, Space Patrol, had close to 300 copies distributed and now sell for 'big bucks' on ebay shows that the demand exceeds supply.

 

I personally think that with the proper advertising, and establishing a customer list, that sales of new games will break 300.....there are 6000 likes on facebook for Intellivision to find out about all the BSRs birthdays and funerals.

 

What I meant by 'there has to be 30,000 Intellivisions in use' is that I find it hard to believe that there are less Intellivisions than that number in active use. Obviously, there is no way to do any research on it. This whole business has to be conducted by the seat of the pants and using gut feelings. I am sure there were people who wondered how Keith Robinson was going to make any money on buying the Intellivision rights, but he has done well for himself.

[+cmart604]

I may be absolutely pulling this fugure out of my ass, and I could be way off base, but why does the number 2 million stick in my head in terms of those 10 in 1 and 25 in 1 units that Keith produced? Even if the number was 200,000, that suggests to me that there are still a number of folks who enjoy playing the INTV and if even 0.25% of them (500) were interested in these games.....just sayin. To Groovy's point, the ones that would likely sell that many units would likely be conversions of well known games that never made it to the INTV (or could do with an upgrade ****cough***DK Jr*****cough) so I'd say Carl has his work cut out for him! LOL!

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Yeah, they moved over a million of those abominations.....

 

I think that a lot of the homebrew crowd are self limiting.......so be it......I might fall on my face, but I am going to try. And, our boxes are amazing!

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Just to let you know, we will not be doing anything like DK Jr in the future.

 

We would not have released a work alike if there were no other clones on the market. However, I am tired of people questioning the legality of doing a clone, even when you don't use the name. Did anyone say regarding 'Champ Kong' for the PC,......"how is this even legal?" like one commenter did on the Undertow review of D2K....that isn't even a clone.....it is totally different screens using the same jumping and climbing concept.....sure it had d1k in it, but remember....the concept of 'kong' ....an ape and a girl is in the public domain...

 

And, if you are wondering about D1K's name of 2011.....I had nothing to do with that.

 

The point is, nothing Elektronite does in the future will have any grey area of legality.

[BillyHW]

How about Kong Donkey? The donkey that thinks and acts like an ape.

[GroovyBee]

Bring the prices down and more homebrews will sell. $50-$80 is serious asking money for many. Get it down around $30 and more will sell.

 

It is possible to do a cart only releases at the $30 mark for most of the common platforms (and a CD release for less). However, you won't see a cart based box release at that price. Its all down to the economies of scale because the numbers just aren't there.

[GroovyBee]

Unless the truth wasn't told, 300 copies of the Intelligentvision version of D1K sold out in 2 days....and I know a bunch of people who wanted a copy but didn't get one.

 

People in various scenes have been known to "stretch the truth" shall we say.

 

Just the fact that Intellivision games like Stonix, 4-Tris, Space Patrol, had close to 300 copies distributed and now sell for 'big bucks' on ebay shows that the demand exceeds supply.

 

According to Joe's site, Space Patrol only sold 220 copies. Look at the CC3 too, that took forever to sell out.

 

I personally think that with the proper advertising, and establishing a customer list, that sales of new games will break 300.....there are 6000 likes on facebook for Intellivision to find out about all the BSRs birthdays and funerals.

 

Its much easier to click "like" on Facebook than it is to get your Inty out and plug a cart into it .

 

What I meant by 'there has to be 30,000 Intellivisions in use' is that I find it hard to believe that there are less Intellivisions than that number in active use. Obviously, there is no way to do any research on it.

 

I agree that it is hard to put an exact number on any retro machines fan base. Some people just aren't interested in homebrew at all and are entirely happy playing their old games. When I was on the homebrew stand at Replay last year (the UKs largest retro event) some people are genuinely surprised that new stuff is being done on the old machines. For the Intellivision I guess the modern way is to look at the forums that support it and the INTVPROG list. They would be the first ports of call for anybody wanting to get into the scene having just typed "Mattel Intellivision" into Google.

 

This whole business has to be conducted by the seat of the pants and using gut feelings. I am sure there were people who wondered how Keith Robinson was going to make any money on buying the Intellivision rights, but he has done well for himself.

 

He's done it by releasing the same old stuff across several platforms. What would be nice would be to see some innovation e.g. new Inty games. Unfortunately new Inty games won't draw the nostalgia factor from people who remember the brand names of old and want to "buy in" on their childhood memories.

[GroovyBee]

I think that a lot of the homebrew crowd are self limiting.......so be it......

 

To be fair I think that is quite a derogatory comment to make to homebrewers. You have to do what is practical and economical for yourself. Sure you could spend months after making your game getting on every retro forum going and annoying the hell out of the locals by spamming and wringing every last drop out of it. To me that just smacks of desperation. Its much easier to get onto the main site(s) for your platform of choice, build up a reputation and sell the majority that way.

[+DZ-Jay]

double-post. (argh!)

Edited June 26, 2012 by DZ-Jay

[+DZ-Jay]

I think that a lot of the homebrew crowd are self limiting.......so be it......I might fall on my face, but I am going to try. And, our boxes are amazing!

 

You keep promoting this vision of the home-brew crowd as if they were these self-defeatist, unambitious, small-fry coders, programming in their homes. This is not only inaccurate, but condescending and offensive. A word to the wise, Willy: these are your future source of material, don't burn your bridges.

 

 

Just to let you know, we will not be doing anything like DK Jr in the future.

 

That's sad to hear. I thought Carl was working on that one. I was really looking forward to it.

 

We would not have released a work alike if there were no other clones on the market. However, I am tired of people questioning the legality of doing a clone, even when you don't use the name. Did anyone say regarding 'Champ Kong' for the PC,......"how is this even legal?" like one commenter did on the Undertow review of D2K....that isn't even a clone.....it is totally different screens using the same jumping and climbing concept.....sure it had d1k in it, but remember....the concept of 'kong' ....an ape and a girl is in the public domain...

 

You're right, it is not a clone. DK Arcade was an unauthorized port, D2K is an unauthorized sequel. The concept of the game is very much not in the public domain. Your game does not have just a "girl," it has Pauline. It does not have a "jumpman," it has Mario. The character doesn't jump around any old platforms, jumps over any old peril, and avoids some random enemy; he walks on Girdles, jumps over Barrels, and avoids Fireballs.

 

When I see the D2K--and I will be willing to bet absolutely anything it's the same for everyone else--I do not see a random platformer game, I see Donkey Kong. How can you even suggest that it's just coincidental?

 

It has the same graphics, animations, and assets as Donkey Kong. It may have some original game-play elements and some new screens, but it is leveraging its acceptance and reach based on the public's association to a well know game.

 

And, if you are wondering about D1K's name of 2011.....I had nothing to do with that.

 

You seem to want to make very large distinctions between D1K and D2K, when both use Nintendo's assets and game mechanics. One is a variation of the other, and both are variations of Donkey Kong (well, D1K is rather faithful in its reproduction).

 

The point is, nothing Elektronite does in the future will have any grey area of legality.

 

There is no "Gray Area" here. This is one of those rare cases that can actually be seen in Black and White: Nintendo has the rights to distribution, copying, and derivative works, on all assets related to the Donkey Kong franchise. DK Arcade (or D1K) and D2K use these assets, and rely on the public's recognition of them in order to gain acceptance. If Nintendo did not explicitly give you a license, it is not legal.

 

Moreover, the fact that people question the legality of the game implies that, by the same token, they consider the possibility of affiliation with Nintendo, or their consent and sponsorship. This confusion is grounds for trademark infringement also.

 

The only thing that you gain by changing the name is the ability to promote it on the web without begin caught in the wide nets cast by lawyers searching for well known assets. (I know that Midway, or whoever owns the franchise of Pac-Man nowadays, send a Cease & Desist letter to every web page that has the term "Pac-Man" in it, regardless of its content. Perhaps Nintendo does the same.)

 

D2K looks like a fine game, and I do not want to cast any aspersions on it. I loved DK Arcade, and I can't wait to get my copy of D2K and play with it. Carl is an exceptional programmer, and these are quality products. Making clones is fine, making ports of well-known titles is also fine. Not having legal licenses for it, well, that's a risk that home-brewers may take because they deem themselves "small potatoes," not worthy of the ire of a large corporation, and try to keep under the radar.

 

-dZ.

Edited June 26, 2012 by DZ-Jay

[+DZ-Jay]

Not having legal licenses for it, well, that's a risk that home-brewers may take because they deem themselves "small potatoes," not worthy of the ire of a large corporation, and try to keep under the radar.

 

By the way, I want to re-iterate that point: taking such risks is what amateurs do, and the exclusive domain of home-brewers, not of real corporations. Welcome to our world. Nice to have you here.

 

-dZ.

[+wood_jl]

Several messages back, there was a comparison between the sales of Boulderdash on the 2600 with DK or D2K (whichever).

 

Just speaking from my own personal taste: Here is why I bought D1K and then D2K:

 

D1K / D2K are especially appealing to me (and others, I imagine) because they replace that egregious turd (original INTV DK) that Coleco released that is a black eye on the system and its library.

 

The original game was a laughing-stock, and people ridiculed the system (INTV) because of it. D1K / D2K actually remedy this situation, and bring a small tear of joy to the eye of the INTV gamer, 30 years later, defending the system's honor.

 

Boulderdash for the 2600 is *totally awesome* and a very impressive 2600 achievement! However, I always associate the game with the Atari 400/800, and got my fill of it on that system.

 

It's great, but it doesn't remove a black eye from the system like D1K / D2K does for INTV, because it's not remedying an inadequacy on the 2600, it's just a great new offering.

 

Games that remedy crappy old ports (and add a bonus like D2K stuff) while simultaneously making the system look impressive and fulfill a dream of correcting a 30 year-old turd........are extremely appealing. I suggest following up with something else that needs "fixing" and fulfills an old dream by replacing an old disappointment.

 

AA User tep392 recently did a similar thing with Pacman for the Atari 400/800......

 

 

 

Fantastic, and impressive in the way that D1K / D2K are. Unfortunately, I missed out on the carts (summer vacation and they weren't for sale long nor many made) but he released the .exe file so I can play that way, at least.

 

As for any infringements with this small-potato homebrew stuff......who cares. If Nintendo gets pissed at a few INTV games then I'm never buying anything from them again, kind of like the entity currently masquerading as "Atari" when they were dicks last year and harangued fan websites that were actually giving them free advertising and building/maintaining interest in their brand that they themselves have trashed.

Edited June 26, 2012 by wood_jl

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

This is an example of a Donkey Kong 'clone'.......why isn't it a port?

 

And, No we don't call the girl "Pauline" in D1K or D2K.

 

And bridges work both ways Dz.......

[intvnut]

According to Joe's site, Space Patrol only sold 220 copies. Look at the CC3 too, that took forever to sell out.

 

True, but it's because I ran out of boards... I haven't restarted sales with the JLP boards out of the hope of saving that energy for a SuperPro Space Patrol release instead.

[+Gemintronic]

I think that a lot of the homebrew crowd are self limiting.......so be it......

 

To be fair I think that is quite a derogatory comment to make to homebrewers. You have to do what is practical and economical for yourself. Sure you could spend months after making your game getting on every retro forum going and annoying the hell out of the locals by spamming and wringing every last drop out of it. To me that just smacks of desperation. Its much easier to get onto the main site(s) for your platform of choice, build up a reputation and sell the majority that way.

 

I'm sorry Groovybee. The secret is out! EVERY Homebrewer is like me. I watched every season of the Golden Girls last weekend instead of coding. Self limiting is the Homebrewers silent credo!

 

Another bad habit is not to support people who out our little secret..

Edited June 26, 2012 by theloon

[GroovyBee]

True, but it's because I ran out of boards... I haven't restarted sales with the JLP boards out of the hope of saving that energy for a SuperPro Space Patrol release instead.

 

Thanks for the extra information. intvnut as somebody who is central to the Inty homebrew scene I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are on the number of sales that a new Inty game could achieve. I'm a relative newcomer to the Inty homebrew scene so I wasn't around back when the other homebrews were released. What were sales of Space Patrol like? How did you go about promoting it? No problems if you don't want to discuss it.

[intvnut]

True, but it's because I ran out of boards... I haven't restarted sales with the JLP boards out of the hope of saving that energy for a SuperPro Space Patrol release instead.

 

Thanks for the extra information. intvnut as somebody who is central to the Inty homebrew scene I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are on the number of sales that a new Inty game could achieve. I'm a relative newcomer to the Inty homebrew scene so I wasn't around back when the other homebrews were released. What were sales of Space Patrol like? How did you go about promoting it? No problems if you don't want to discuss it.

 

It sold out fairly quickly as I recall -- a few months or so. As for quantities sold, I'd have to say my own views probably fall in line with the conventional wisdom (eg. 250 - 300 tops), but I'm not a great promoter, either. I personally budget for a game to be profitable rather before that point, rather than eating any modest profit with unsold inventory. Back in the EPROM days, that meant guessing a sales figure before committing to the board shop--hence selling out in the low 200s. With my new board design, I have a bit more flexible inventory management, so it'll be interesting what that translates to in sales. If I had a runaway success that exceeded all expectations, my limiting factor will now be some other aspect of the production, such as boxes.

 

Lest you think it's all about profit for me, most of my money is put into new development, such as cartridge shells and new board designs. I've got $BIGNUM invested in boards and shells already. Elektronite is the first publisher to benefit from both of those developments, since I've been too busy to work on my own games. LTO's Christmas Carol release is next though. :-)

 

David Harley did most of the promotion for SP and the most recent 4-Tris release through a list he collected on his website. For my future games, I was going contact existing customers as a starting point, and also post details places like AA and the like and ask folks to get the word out as well. Pretty much everyone who's bought from me in the past has said they want to hear about my future releases, so that's always a good sign. :-)

[GroovyBee]

It sold out fairly quickly as I recall -- a few months or so. As for quantities sold, I'd have to say my own views probably fall in line with the conventional wisdom (eg. 250 - 300 tops), but I'm not a great promoter, either.

 

Do you think the style of game affects sales? Not every style of game is universally liked by all. My gut feeling is that original games will sell less than games similar to/direct ports of arcade games.

 

I personally budget for a game to be profitable rather before that point, rather than eating any modest profit with unsold inventory. Back in the EPROM days, that meant guessing a sales figure before committing to the board shop--hence selling out in the low 200s. With my new board design, I have a bit more flexible inventory management, so it'll be interesting what that translates to in sales. If I had a runaway success that exceeded all expectations, my limiting factor will now be some other aspect of the production, such as boxes.

 

Sound advice. Get the break even point to as lower number of sales as possible.

 

Lest you think it's all about profit for me, most of my money is put into new development, such as cartridge shells and new board designs. I've got $BIGNUM invested in boards and shells already. Elektronite is the first publisher to benefit from both of those developments, since I've been too busy to work on my own games. LTO's Christmas Carol release is next though. :-)

 

I have no problems with homebrewers making a profit from their games. After all they put all the time and effort into it.

 

David Harley did most of the promotion for SP and the most recent 4-Tris release through a list he collected on his website. For my future games, I was going contact existing customers as a starting point, and also post details places like AA and the like and ask folks to get the word out as well. Pretty much everyone who's bought from me in the past has said they want to hear about my future releases, so that's always a good sign. :-)

 

Using your existing customer base for first sales contact is also a good plan too. At least you can pretty much say that a higher proportion of them will be immediately interested in new homebrews.

[Fushek]

It's Donkey Kong ... let's face it, if you created an app for the iPad exactly like this, Nintendo would be on you faster than Rev on a Golden Girl ... this escapes through because it's created for a system that most of the rest of the world have forgotten about.

 

People still buy Intellivisions (I still sell them on eBay quite well!) but they buy them to relive their favorite games. That creates a market, but only for old existing games that people played as a kid. Some people, such as myself, will stumble onto this board and find the wonderful world of Intellivision here and see the value in new games ... but not most. I think that you need to appeal to them in one of two ways. First, bring a popular game onto the system (such as D2K has done) or second, to create a sequel to existing Intellivision games (who wouldn't want to buy Night Stalker II or Super Pro Snafu, etc). They get a new game AND a sense of nostalgia. I understand there are potential legal issues with either of those plays but are they realistic as selling cartridges does not seem to conflict with the current Intellivision owner's game plan.

[intvnut]

It sold out fairly quickly as I recall -- a few months or so. As for quantities sold, I'd have to say my own views probably fall in line with the conventional wisdom (eg. 250 - 300 tops), but I'm not a great promoter, either.

 

Do you think the style of game affects sales? Not every style of game is universally liked by all. My gut feeling is that original games will sell less than games similar to/direct ports of arcade games.

 

I think quality and depth matters. I'm somewhat surprised how well 4-Tris has done, since it's not all that deep of a game. It has quite a lot of cachet for being "first" among Intellivision homebrews though. If I had done Space Patrol first, though, I doubt 4-Tris would have sold as well. In any case, my games so far have hewn more toward arcade familiarity. I hope to break out of that mold with future titles. (After SPSP of course.)

 

Given two games in the same genre, I expect the deeper, more involved game would likely do better. For example, I would expect a plain Breakout clone to not do nearly as well as Stonix, no matter how nicely Breakout was done. Stonix has deeper game play with the powerups and so forth.

 

I really look forward to Paddle Party. It's got quite a lot of depth to it compared to, say, Pong. And it looks really good. If it shows up in a cart, I think it'll sell fine, and I doubt anyone would see it as an "arcade port." It's not just "Pong on steroids."

 

Arcade ports are often a short-cut to depth and familiarity. After all, nobody's porting "Speed Coin." We all choose arcade hits, not misses. In the case of SP, I think I was plugging an obvious hole in Intellivision's catalog.

 

Lest you think it's all about profit for me, most of my money is put into new development, such as cartridge shells and new board designs. I've got $BIGNUM invested in boards and shells already. Elektronite is the first publisher to benefit from both of those developments, since I've been too busy to work on my own games. LTO's Christmas Carol release is next though. :-)

 

I have no problems with homebrewers making a profit from their games. After all they put all the time and effort into it.

 

Well, it's always so easy for peoples' motivations to get questioned when there's money on the line. I'd say more about money, but I'd rather not stir that bucket too much. I have heard others grumble about "profit takers."

 

For my part, I try to run LTO close to break even, putting extra back into making neat things. It's a hobby that's self funding. (Unlike, say, souping up my car. Did that too for awhile, and have the gaping hole in my pocket book as evidence.)

[+DZ-Jay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFglKUn-ioI

 

This is an example of a Donkey Kong 'clone'.......why isn't it a port?

 

And, No we don't call the girl "Pauline" in D1K or D2K.

 

 

I think it's splitting hairs to discuss the semantic difference between "port" and "clone." That game you showed obviously tried to resemble Donkey Kong.

 

I mentioned DK Arcade is a "port" because it was intended to be Donkey Kong in all but name. It was an attempt to bring the original game, ported to the Intellivision as faithfully as possible. And at that, it succeeded.

 

A "clone" typically tries to imitate the style or genre of another game, but not necessarily pretend to be that game. Some people use these interchangeably, so it does not really matter.

 

The point is that you alluded to feeling offended by people calling D2K a "clone." That's fair, if you want to claim that D2K wasn't attempting to clone Donkey Kong, but expand on its concept and game-play. That it does. However, if your claim is that D2K should not be called a "clone" because it's an original concept, and just incidentally happens to look like an old Nintendo game; then that's a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

 

And bridges work both ways Dz.......

 

I offered that comment as friendly advice because you seem to be steering this thread in a very strange direction, which I don't think is becoming to your organization nor Carl's product. I did not intend it to be offensive.

 

However, since you want to go that way, I'll bite. I'm not looking to make money, and I'm not begging others to purchase my game. I'll continue being happy and satisfied whether my game sells or not, because my enjoyment came from designing and developing it.

 

And if I can't find a distributor for my next game, I'll bet you anything that I still exact pleasure out of building it, and even offering it directly to my friends to play. In other words, my stake in this community is enhanced by--but does not depend on--others. A vintage games publisher, with all due respect, cannot say the same thing.

 

And with that said, I retire from this thread. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, and bid you no ill fortune in your future. I mean that, really.

 

-dZ.

[Carl Mueller Jr]

Here are my thoughts on the issue, for what they're worth:

The less said in public about the above, the better. No one is going to agree anyway. Any of these comments has the potential to offend many others in many different respects. We are, in fact, a small community with an even smaller pool of developers, and it is in the best interests of all of us to maintain a friendly atmosphere and to work together for mutual benefit.

Let's end this thread, please.

[Rev]

Yeah, I now regret making this thread, It didnt turn out like I though, I was truly just hoping i could get D2K on my CC3 to play. Im not going to point fingers at anyone, but I think sometimes people read too much into typed word and take points wrong. Reading typed word has no emotion, and soooo many times I have been taken the wrong way...

[GroovyBee]

@Rev: Don't worry about it. In my mind its a valid topic for discussion for homebrewers, publishers and game purchasers. Anyways.... We have a much better idea about Inty homebrew sales numbers now.

[Rev]

@Rev: Don't worry about it. In my mind its a valid topic for discussion for homebrewers, publishers and game purchasers. Anyways.... We have a much better idea about Inty homebrew sales numbers now.

 

Cool, now how are your games coming along? Any progress?!?!?!