A New, $99 Console Called Ouya Is Real and Radically Different...

[cimerians]

This is why the Ouya is being made:

 

http://arstechnica.c...-360-patch-fee/

 

Now... that's just plain wrong.

 

Yeah, and it's wrong for everyone involved.

 

First, Microsoft shouldn't be charging an insane fee to fix a bug in a game. If you have a bug, you owe it to the customers (especially PAYING customers) to fix it. End of story.

 

But... I'm not letting the developer off the hook here. You shouldn't need to patch a console video game. Those things should be ready to go the day they are released, be it in cart form, CD, or download. The fact that this problem was caused by a patch that was put on top of another patch shows that they're letting stuff out the door that isn't ready. That is NOT COOL, and the fact that our gaming culture currently tolerates it does not change my opinion on the matter.

 

Patches are now a way of life which is why I game on Steam now and not consoles. Some retail console games never get fixed properly and yes for some reason everyone simply thinks its OK.

 

I side a bit more on the dev on this one. Not only is the fee a joke....so is XNA.

[Mendon]

This is why the Ouya is being made:

 

http://arstechnica.c...-360-patch-fee/

 

(I'm just quoting your post, Cimerians... not directing my questions to you)

 

 

Being a person of limited technical knowledge (I can use a search engine, though... ), I'm curious about one thing about this story:

 

While I can understand that PC gaming patches might be a necessary evil because of the many varied system configurations (memory, cards, boards, etc) that programmers have to deal with, I don't understand how such a situation like the Fez issue exists with consoles.

 

Aren't all consoles (whether Xbox-PS3-Wii) created equal, in that each brand have the same boards, same memory, require the same drivers, etc etc etc? If so, shouldn't a game related issue that needed a patch affect ALL consoles? How can a situation like the Fez game exist, where only SOME consoles need a patch?

 

Though I haven't heard anyone complain in some time, this Fez situation sort of reminds me of stories that seemed to always appear when a game got patched: "Patch Ver. 1.3 bricked my console". Sometimes even a game itself was blamed for bricking some consoles and I always wondered how a patch or game bricked some consoles but not others.

 

Anyway, I'm just curious.

 

 

Mendon

Edited July 22, 2012 by Mendon

[+Gemintronic]

There are minor revisions to modern game consoles in order to reduce cost or fix problems that become too public. Most firmware updates are actually security fixes that interact with the hardware at a low level in order to block consumers from freely using their property. Unfortunately, since there are minor revisions of XBOX 360s and PS3s and different tolerances for heat and wear some unexpected oopsies can occur - including locking dead your console.

Edited July 22, 2012 by theloon

[Mord]

Aren't all consoles (whether Xbox-PS3-Wii) created equal, in that each brand have the same boards, same memory, require the same drivers, etc etc etc? If so, shouldn't a game related issue that needed a patch affect ALL consoles? How can a situation like the Fez game exist, where only SOME consoles need a patch?

 

Yes. But there are two issues.

 

1. All the big name publishers are porting their game to EVERY possible platform. That's about as bad as doing a PC release. Personally I'd prefer a lot more titles land on just one console. (But even still there shouldn't be nearly as many patches required as there is on consoles. There aren't THAT many config setups compared to a PC)

 

2. The are some cases when a perfectly running game BECOMES bugged and need a patch because the console maker did a firmware upgrade. I believe White Knight Chronicles was one of those (that I remember reading of anyway.) If microsoft tried charging their 5 digit fees on this kind of bug, if I were a developer, I'd stop supporting microsoft consoles immediately.

[macgoo]

s'alright but I already have a computer, you see

 

Does it run Android?

 

Most Android (and iPhone and Win mobile for that fact) games look and play WORSE than mid 80s 8bit computer games so I don't see the point.

 

And programming Android/iOS/WinM games is not exactly the same as typing in games from the C+VG magazine era either so writing games in some obscure difficult to read language vs writing Amiga games in Blitz Basic 2.1 leaves a LOT to be desired.

 

What really would be great is something with the power (and popularity) of PS3/360 but with the elegant properly multitasking (not that Windows/OSX cock you have to endure today thanks) OS environment equivalent to an Acorn/Amiga 32bit computer in the early 90s and a stupendously well ported version of Blitz Basic 3D and 2D as per not so long ago on x86 PCs IMO.

 

*meh*

[Austin]

Most Android (and iPhone and Win mobile for that fact) games look and play WORSE than mid 80s 8bit computer games so I don't see the point.

 

Sounds like it's time to get your eyes checked, buddy.

[+Gemintronic]

At present you can get a Raspberry Pi and case for around $50. Given $35 for the unit and $15 for the case. No restrictions or DRM. You want RiscOS? Change the SD card. You want Internet TV? Boot into XBMC. Debian means plenty of emulators to be easily ported over.

 

Stiff competition I'd say.

Edited July 25, 2012 by theloon

[Reaperman]

At present you can get a Raspberry Pi and case for around $50. Given $35 for the unit and $15 for the case. No restrictions or DRM. You want RiscOS? Change the SD card. You want Internet TV? Boot into XBMC. Debian means plenty of emulators to be easily ported over.

 

Stiff competition I'd say.

For some people it totally is. Especially for the fiddler/tinkerer end of the Ouya target market. Personally it reminds me of the miserable experience gp2x gave me--more digging through install files and reading .nfo's than gaming. Then when I got to the gaming, nothing felt like it really ran well on the system--like it was all built for something else.

 

I spend all day fiddling with annoying computers, and I've come to accept that when I get home, I just want something easy that will give me a quality experience. That's why I'm a console gamer.

[Rex Dart]

I spend all day fiddling with annoying computers, and I've come to accept that when I get home, I just want something easy that will give me a quality experience. That's why I'm a console gamer.

 

Oh yeah, they already make those.

[potatohead]

Interesting thread guys!

 

I went ahead and backed them for a console and second controller. After thinking about it some, I want to personally write for the thing. Whether or not that ends up being good enough to be worth much isn't material at this point. Need a device to program and learn on. I regularly do that on classic / micro-controller devices. It's genuine curiosity and entertainment on that level for me.

 

What got me to thinking was casual, fun games. Lots of mobile games are exactly that, but they are tough to share. Put 'em on a TV and things change significantly. My wife has been doing that kind of gaming on a little net book. Games are not a lot of money, and they are good entertainers, sometimes curios too, but not all that easy to share. Connecting the netbook to the TV can be done, and we have, but then there are just lots of little, painful things.

 

I value my time fairly highly. At this price, it can be hooked up and games shared / played together. I think that's a win-win all around. Current consoles offer that experience, but it's expensive! Our PS3 plays the occasional release game, and the odd DLC that makes sense to tack on, and when we spend that kind of money, it needs to be solid. We play it, then we are done. The rest of the time, the thing is streaming something or other.

 

Came to realize I just don't need a full on console. The really immersive games are intense, and frankly, I won't put the time in these days. Or, when I do, it's a lot of time, then I want to be done.

 

Funny too, I keep coming back to the little, goofy Pop-Cap type games. Peggle, etc... The one I bought on PS3 was a total blast, and I think it was $7. Played the crap out of it. Sometimes still will go back and play a little, just because I like the music track so much.

 

Those kinds of games would rule on this thing, and there are a lot of them! Those kinds of games are also the kinds of games that indie / home brew types can knock out and actually see some chance of success and deliver good entertainment.

 

So that's why I'm in.

 

I think we might see some "new" old-school appear too. Think remakes of great music. That's a niche that appears to be opening up big time. Think "COMBAT" with all kinds of goofy weapons, maybe split screen, etc... Honestly, that kind of thing done right could be a total kick!

 

Then there are emulators. I'm sure we will see those ported / written. meh I like them for development / learning, but not so much playing. Ran MAME on a PC for years though. It trounced the XBOX and PS2 that were in the house, and I never forgot that. Those games are fun, and they were well designed too. That's why the setup got the attention it did. But, it's just not always about those games. It's more about new ones that incorporate some of those elements. I think we will see some of that on the system too, emulation like gaming where the great elements are pulled out and incorporated into something new and fun and maybe sharable / playable by multiple people.

 

To me, that's always been the very best gaming. Networked gaming is fun --in fact, it's awesome at times! Ran a Q3A server for a Loooong time, and it ruled. We still kind of want to set that all up again, but that's only one niche and it can get too intense, motion sick, etc...

 

But, those on the TV "let's play together" games were and are the best! Split screen type things, "Battletanks", "Golden Eye", "Perfect Dark", "COMBAT", "Mario Karts", etc... That is where mobile falls flat. There have been some really good efforts to share the screen, and the fact that they are as good as they are, or networked games are attempted, tells me that people enjoy a gaming session. Get the munchies, drinks, whatever and go do it, right there on the TV, people yelling, having fun, watching, etc...

 

They are onto something with that. I think they played same as us, and just see that door open --pretty wide open at this point, and are going for it. Hope they do well, or I've got another tech toy to tinker with. No worries there. It's worth the $$$ at the pledge price.

 

Know what I find interesting?

 

The majors have a problem with simple, low key, moderate to low cost offerings. They can't move on those and make money because they are just too big. It's like a totally serious film studio making a basic movie. It won't pay off. This is how cult movies form. Some underdog goes for it, stretching a little, and sometimes the result is so freaking great that people latch on and never let go. Games are like this, and the same dynamics apply too.

 

The little guy with some fun idea is gonna have a shot. Somebody up thread mentioned the "mining it for good ideas" bit. Spot on! I think that's a whole lot of what could make things work well. If something really hits big, it's no big deal to port it all over the place, and doing that makes one hell of a lot more sense on an established revenue stream than it does "taking a chance" when a larger company has expectations to meet. This isn't the whole nut they are wanting to crack, but you can bet on the fact that they've had some talks already.

 

And the little studios and indie developers can take those shots, but don't always have an appropriate venue. They, on the other hand could build into something bigger, but need to be able to execute and get $$$ to do that with. All of that needs to be LEAN too. Every console being a dev kit is a big plus. Want to jump in? Do it. Publishing fees will make or break this, and I believe these guys get it. If somebody gets something done, I bet it won't be a big deal to get it incorporated into the app store. They could go vendor direct too, nothing but good choices there for all parties.

 

Two ends of a loop to close there, if you ask me. This project could close both of them.

 

Finally, niche gaming. Somebody else up-thread mentioned app stores and how they would much rather use the Internet. Coupla things:

 

Internet = piracy. On the other hand, it also means free, home brew, emulation, and all kinds of goodness. It also means $$$ to get $$$ because there is a LOT to compete with.

 

Factor all that out, and the app-store has the following merits:

 

1. Ease of use. Yes you pay, but it's quick, easy, and it works. For under $10 maybe $15, a whole lot of people don't care. Spend it, play it, move on. Life is short. And $10 doesn't equal a whole lot of time. Either blow a few hours of your life dealing with the Internet, or spend those hours gaming, ideally with a coupla friends. No brainer for a lot of people.

 

Some of us don't have the $$$ to begin with. IMHO, that also means they won't back the project and might not be in the target demographics for this thing. I think a lot of non-gamer / casual gamer types will like it, carving out a niche away from movies and such.

 

2. Curation. There will be a lot of stuff. Sometimes people just want to pick from good stuff. An app store rocks for that. A good curator can see the niches, pull out the appropriate titles and show case 'em to pick from, easy cheezy. Any niche gamer that picks up on this will see the value and be loyal because that is hard to do otherwise.

 

3. Central source of news and reviews, demos, etc...

 

4. Maintenance. If people do buy digital entitlements, it's easy to just port them from device to device as things age, get stolen, etc...

 

That leaves out archiving games like we are used to doing. Yep. Sucks, but my own view on this is those days are forever ending. It also means the classics will solidify around those games and devices that permitted that to happen. New retro-gaming blood will always be coming in as people want to collect, relive history, archive, learn, teach, explore, build. That's a win for me. I don't keep much that I've bought new. Once it's done, it's kind of done. The overall game complexity has reached the point where I don't find that worth doing. Sucks for the kiddies now because they will have a hard time sharing early experiences. Total win for us, because our stuff will live on and on and on.

 

Will be interesting to see how the games industry deals with that. I think they will, but I also think they won't actually deal until it becomes painful. Right now, it's not that painful. I am miffed that I can't really play the original SSX without a lot of hassle, or a PS2. That one is timeless, and I'm sure we all know the titles like that. As some more time passes, people age up, want to share, it will grow more painful. Interesting times lie ahead in say, 5 to 10 years. I'll be more old then, but I'll still play SSX. Can't wait to see how that problem building up gets resolved, but that isn't what this project is about.

 

So there you go. Maybe it's all bunk. Maybe it's gonna be fun. Wasn't too much to get in and I'm entertained just watching it all unfold and I get a nice, hackable, well designed device for a song too.

 

Edit: One other thing. I think Android is the future. It's a UNIX, and it's starting to really clean up. Linux is awesome. I've been around the block a few times on just about every computing system you can name. Linux is bad ass, because when it gets into the hands of somebody who wants to build something, it's there, open, accessible, powerful, etc...

 

Valve is gonna take a crack at that, and their crack will be to compete with the majors. Think Linux console, spiffy hardware and input options + Steam. IMHO, that's gonna be a winner, if they execute. They sure are hiring some of the right people right now.

 

Android can do most basic computing that people want it to do. Linux is too messy, Windows too big and clunky and, and, and... it costs too much, or is crippled, something. Android has established on mobile, and it's useful and you know what that means?

 

Tons of people get it. They didn't have to get introduced by a geek, or go off and build their own either. If we put an Android system in front of them, they can use it, end of story. That is notable, because there isn't anything else out there that can compete with Windows on that basis. Android runs on ARM, or whatever else people want to port it to, but the big bang is on ARM. That's a whole new build out in terms of hardware, power consumption, etc... and it's lean, and it's cheap too.

 

Right now, I would move my embedded stuff to Android, keeping it all lean, losing the hard drive, operating on SD / Flash and portable media and would not miss a thing. Add on a coupla USB / Bluetooth devices and I'm totally set. Android can render a PC too expensive and thick to bother with for a whole ton of people, and those numbers are growing. This thing is built on that, and it's good hardware, open, etc... That alone is worth the $$$.

 

When I look at the computing devices in my home, I could replace all of them except for the work / professional PC with Android devices, assuming the applications are there, and not miss a thing. Amazing! That's not been true in times past. For the first time, I can think of building up all I need on a non-Intel, non-legacy platform that is lean and mean. Given how people use phones and such, I think a whole lot of basic assumptions are gonna change.

 

If I could connect keyboard mouse to my Android phone, I could develop on it for embedded, author documents and such, and use it for most of the things I use a laptop for. Jack in an HDMI monitor / TV, and it rocks pretty hard. This game system is right at that level of performance, employing great mobile hardware without the limitations of mobile. It has me thinking.

 

Shit, this is an absolute pig of a post. Total brick. Sorry for dropping it on the thread like that. I've gotta run, and I can't block-quote everybody I wanted to respond to. Been on vacation out in the woods and just wanted to respond proper.

[Reaperman]

I was reading an article here:

http://www.ouyaface....ence-board.html

 

It takes a look at the ouya reference board, and clarified my outlook a bit.

 

Tegra 3 seems to not to be a cpu, as I had believed, but rather a full platform designed by Nvidia. (CPU+GPU+Memory)

 

When the Ouya folks say they have a working prototype, and that they're pretty far along in the process, I'm now less sure what they meant by that. It sounds like they've got the standard manufacturer supplied board, so I'm guessing that the game launching menu is the start and end of what they have done. In theory they shouldn't need much more, but I had previously had the impression that they had slaved away for some time before kickstarter just to get that board designed and that was what they were referring to as 'working prototype.'

 

Tegra seems to take pretty much all of the work out of selecting hardware and preventing bottlenecks.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Reaperman

[cimerians]

 

 

Funny too, I keep coming back to the little, goofy Pop-Cap type games. Peggle, etc... The one I bought on PS3 was a total blast, and I think it was $7. Played the crap out of it. Sometimes still will go back and play a little, just because I like the music track so much.

 

 

 

Thats how it was in the late 70's and 80's.

 

Fast quick pick up and play games. I loved it and I'm loving it now.

 

A solid PC home hookup & Steam really has stolen me away. I'm hopeful this cube opens up new doors in affordable.....and endless gaming.

 

I still have loads of fun with big name games but its the little games that are worth every penny.

[cimerians]

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/07/ouya-controller-onlive/

 

 

I dont think I like the long bats and of course the disc shape of the D-Pad. I cant stand discs for D-pads.

Time to go into my email and send them a message to add my voice to the displeasure.....

 

They should just copy the new Xbox 360 controller. Nintendo did.

[Reaperman]

I cant stand discs for D-pads.

Discs are okay--sega did especially well with them on the later genesis and saturn controllers. It all comes down to feel.

I expect that they'll be redesigning that controller. The current d-pad disc does look unfinished, and they can't stick with o's for all the buttons. The older controller image was zoomed in on them, and the buttons weren't level either--I can only guess that it bugs the designer to no end that it was such a widely distributed pic.

[Reaperman]

I'm still a little worried about audio delivery. From what I've seen (including the newest exploded view of the case) the only audio output is HDMI. This isn't good news for a lot of people who send their audio to a different device than their video. Most projector users (me) would be totally screwed, and some surround sound users might be stuck with TV speakers.

 

From what I understand, getting a simple adapter to break audio out of hdmi is not possible. Audio (as I understand it) isn't traveling in analog on its own pins or anything simple and would need to be decoded for use. That would mean it would probably be easier to crack the case open and mod in an audio jack there, but that's a silly thought for a mainstream device.

 

I guess I should just trust them to get the design right, and include a 3.5mm audio jack (this is how the onlive microconsole solves the problem), but part of me is worried that I might get a shiny new console and now way to experience audio from it. Am I being paranoid?

[Arkhan]

The racing stripe sucks.

[Rex Dart]

The racing stripe sucks.

 

That's about the only part I liked; I hated brushed metal. It's like fingernails on chalkboard for the eyes. Good thing it's just a mockup/fake (despite the topic's title).

[RevEng]

From what I understand, getting a simple adapter to break audio out of hdmi is not possible. Audio (as I understand it) isn't traveling in analog on its own pins or anything simple and would need to be decoded for use. That would mean it would probably be easier to crack the case open and mod in an audio jack there, but that's a silly thought for a mainstream device.

 

It's not paranoid. It's unfortunate, but this seems to be the way manufacturers are going... I had to mod a cable to get analog audio out of my xbox360 along with the hdmi video.

 

Hopefully Ouya will add an analog audio jack, though I plan to use it with a TV with HDMI so its not a problem for me. If I wanted to use it with a monitor or projector without audio, I'd probably just go with something like this instead of modding the console.

[Reaperman]

after probably way too much research, I've come up with a couple reasonably-priced solutions to my ouya audio issue:

 

#1. Hdmi2hdmi+audio

Cost: $24.46

Possible issues: maybe a/v lag from running through a device which probably has to reencode video.

 

 

 

 

#2. Bluetooth audio adapter

Cost: $29.90

Possible issues: audio quality, ability to connect bluetooth headset as well(?)

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2012 by Reaperman

[bomberpunk]

i'm glad i waited on backing the project because that new "brown" copperish color is beautiful.

 

Edited August 3, 2012 by bomberpunk

[Animan]

i'm glad i waited on backing the project because that new "brown" copperish color is beautiful.

 

I believe you're allowed to change the amount you pledge after you've already backed the project.

 

If I wasn't a near-broke teenager, I would definitely bump my pledge up to $140. It's a very nice color. And those new buttons look nice, too.

[bomberpunk]

yep, you're right. you can change your pledge repeatedly up until the last day.

[DemonoidTentacle]

They'll be getting my money on payday.

[RevEng]

Just bear in mind that the Kickstarter campaign ends this thursday!

[DemonoidTentacle]

So when are we getting an OUYA specific subforum?