7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[Atarifever]

@Atarifever

And now you yourself are finally making sense to me.

You never mentioned there being additional hardware on the NES cartridges before, you just always said it was an unfair comparison. You must really tell people your thoughts in full, and not assume they understand.

 

I clearly said I am no tech guy, but a graphics artist. I look at an NES game, it doesn't advertise having special hardware in it like the Super FX and SVP chips of the later systems, so I must assume it's just a stock NES game. My issue was that team size or budget can not go into the equation because there are so many variables like that that can never be done justice, even between two professional products.

 

Extra hardware is another thing; I want to compare the best a stock NES and a stock SMS can do to the best the 7800 can do. We can't compare by theories but must use existing titles; and we can't use a lackluster title on any of the systems for the purpose iff there is a better one. The only rule has to be it's on stock hardware.

 

And mind you, PacManPlus ASKED me to explain my views to him, and I repeatedly said I think his stuff is great for the 7800. The fact that I see Bentley as a benchmark title because it surpasses the official releases alone should make that clear.

 

You, sir, are a class act. I fully expected to see something when I got back to the effect of "Atarifever, you are dumb" not something well stated like this. I said silly so much as I think that's a fairly harmless word, but have had that assumption come back to bite me many times, with people reacting to my saying an argument is silly much as if I said they were dumb. Which is not what I ever mean.

 

Anyway, the not stock hardware is still only a small part of the problem as I see it though. I'll try saying two more things (sorry the first one takes some time), then I'll give it up and we can agree to disagree after your next reply if you'd like.

 

1) People making these 7800 Vs. NES, 7800 Vs. Inty, 7800 Vs. Coleco, 7800 Vs.SMS comparisons are mixing up their between group variability with their within group variability (to get statistical on you). To put this simply, there is a ton of variability between games on the NES. There is variability between 7800 games, especially with the homebrews factored in. Some games on both libraries have less flicker, some have more. Some have less colours, some have more. Some have slow down, some do not. However, there are hundreds of NES games and only dozens of 7800 games. The entire pool of variability for the NES is, thus, much greater. (SMS, Inty, etc. too).

 

Thus, if you go looking for the most flicker free NES game, you have dozens in the top tier on less flicker. You have only dozens of 7800 games IN TOTAL. If you look for the most colourful NES games, you have dozens of choices (many not looked at in your least flicker comparison). For the 7800 you have the same dozens you used in that last comparison. On the NES you have dozens of games to choose from for best sound. On the 7800 again, you are going to look at just the same several dozen from the last two comparisons. If you cherry pick the games, you can always find an NES game that is better than a 7800 game on any individual measure, because for each individual thing there are dozens of great NES games, while the 7800 only has dozens of games period.

 

It's like if you compared intelligence scores for my town (population 6500) to scores for New York City. And you did that by sampling the "top 6500 most intelligent people" in each town. That would be a comparison of a tiny, tiny fraction of the top smartest people in all of New York City versus the average I.Q. in this entire town, smart to dumb. After doing this you would say "the average I.Q. in the sample from Atarifever's town is lower. They have a different type of brain." No they don't. It's much simpler than that, as you can see. You cheery picked best and brightest from a huge population and compared it against the average if the whole other set. Then you could do the same thing comparing the "top 6500 athletes" in both towns. Again, the average ability of my town versus the average ability of just the top athletes from the millions of New Yorkers. Then, after that you claim New Yorkers have different and superior bodies. See what is happening here?

 

2) The within variability is much greater than these comparisons give credit, while the between is much lower. A simple question will entirely make this case. Is there more difference in depth, graphics, colours, etc. between Bentley Bear and SMB, or between Combat and Solaris? According to the "comparison of a few games shows difference in the tech" argument, BB:CQ and SMB must both be from the same hardware, and Solaris and Combat are from different machines. For another comparison, is there more difference between Tower Toppler 7800 and Nebulus NES, or between Urban Champion and SMB 3? Again, I guess both versions of Tower Toppler are on the same hardware and Urban Champion and SMB3 are on different consoles. There is just too, too much else going on programming-wise within what systems with similar hardware are capable of to parse out hardware differences between them from a handful of games.

[108 Stars]

You have a good point. Basically what you say is absolutely true, and there can not be an empiric result to such a comparison as long as we don't get a developer who has full knowledge of all three systems and let him try to do exactly the same game (or better a few games, to show differences due to various genre's different demands) on all three systems himself. Only then could we clearly see where the advantages and disadvantages of each version lie.

 

And, to still my curiosity, I suggest PacManPlus quits his job, divorces, and gives his kids to an orphanage to concentrate learning the ropes with the NES and SMS and then makes this experiment a reality!

 

I think we should make a poll to decide on that, I'm sure PacManPlus will do as we vote.

 

 

My original point was, and that's why the comparisons came up in the first place, that I suggested the 7800 was designed with a different kind of games in mind than NES and SMS; and that while it could adapt to tile-based games that became the standard in the latter half of the 80ies, it might not be on the same level on it as the others because of it's initial design focusing on different aspects.

Kind of like (but exaggerated) the NES can do vector graphics, but it's still not en par with the Vectrex in that regard since that machine was specifically made for that tech.

 

For me, the pre-crash systems have the one common element that they tried to emulate the arcade experience of the golden age; with mostly single screen playfields and a more sports like approach rather than discovery of worlds and reaching an end. The Famicom as I see it was designed forward looking to the change in game styles that was coming; that's why while developed pre-crash, I saw it as a pioneer for the new breed.

 

Basically, I would not draw the line between pre-crash systems and post-crash by a date, but more by the systems' concepts, by whether they were designed for pre-crash kind of games or post-crash kind of games.

 

But, with all comparisons based on the available software invalidated, there is little to no way for anyone but the experienced programmers to say if this is true to some degree or not, if the 7800 is less optimized for the more modern games than for golden classics.

 

So, granted, I can not say what was the case; but the question still is relevant in determining the status of the 7800 as a pre- or post-crash-system I believe. It's just that few can give a good answer.

[LidLikesIntellivision]

(...)

And, to still my curiosity, I suggest PacManPlus quits his job, divorces, and gives his kids to an orphanage to concentrate learning the ropes with the NES and SMS and then makes this experiment a reality!

 

I think we should make a poll to decide on that, I'm sure PacManPlus will do as we vote.

(...)

I have a different suggestion.

He could have more kids and teach them all how to program.

That will be PacMan++ in a loop.

 

It's just that few can give a good answer.

I gave the answer.

But as mechanic quantic, nobody can really explain.

[Metal Ghost]

Seriously, 1,049 views on this thread and ~30 votes? Come on people....Rock the vote!!

[LidLikesIntellivision]

Seriously, 1,049 views on this thread and ~30 votes? Come on people....Rock the vote!!

I can't vote on both with radio buttons...

[high voltage]

Also, when the NES finally made it in the US, Nintendo threatened shops not to stock 'other consoles' or they'd withdraw. It's the American way.

[Stun Runner 87]

J The 7800 was initially released in southern California in June

 

1984 [citation needed] , following an announcement on May 21, 1984 at the

 

Summer Consumer Electronics Show. [1] 13 games were announcedforthe system's launch, including Ms. Pac-Man, Pole Position II, Centipede, Joust, Dig Dug, Desert Falcon, Robotron: 2084, Galaga, Xevious, FoodFight, Ballblazer, Rescue on Fractalus!, and Track and Field. Atari was a sponsor of the 1984 Summer Olympics and planned to push the 7800aggressively in time for Christmas that year.

 

One month later, Warner Communications sold Atari's Consumer Division to Jack Tramiel. All projects were halted during an initialevaluationperiod.

 

The Atari 7800 languished on warehouse shelves until it was re-introduced

 

in January 1986 after strong 2600 sales the previous Christmas. [5]

 

Atari's launch of the 7800 under Tramiel was far more subdued than Warner had planned for the system in 1984 with a marketing budget of just $300,000. Additionally, the keyboard and high score cartridge were canceled, the expansion port was removed from later production runs of the system and, in lieu of new titles, the system was launched with titles intended for the 7800's debut in 1984. ust for the record:

[Stun Runner 87]

Like I said, JACK TREMIEL didn't beleve in the 7800 or video games for that matter....He wanted Atari to be known for home computers.....

[Retro Rogue]

Like I said, JACK TREMIEL didn't beleve in the 7800 or video games for that matter....He wanted Atari to be known for home computers.....

 

And like I said, completely incorrect. Please tell me you're not copying and pasting from Wikipedia. We've gone from direct interviews, internal emails, internal documentation, etc.

[Mord]

Thus, if you go looking for the most flicker free NES game, you have dozens in the top tier on less flicker. You have only dozens of 7800 games IN TOTAL. If you look for the most colourful NES games, you have dozens of choices (many not looked at in your least flicker comparison). For the 7800 you have the same dozens you used in that last comparison. On the NES you have dozens of games to choose from for best sound. On the 7800 again, you are going to look at just the same several dozen from the last two comparisons. If you cherry pick the games, you can always find an NES game that is better than a 7800 game on any individual measure, because for each individual thing there are dozens of great NES games, while the 7800 only has dozens of games period.

 

If you're only looking at the stock games for the NES however, the pool isn't quite as high as you'd think. It's still going to be more games to choose from than the 7800 but I think you'll find there's not going to be as wide a difference in the quality of those NES games. Most of the NES games that were able to make headway in lowering flicker or increasing colors relied on extra hardware to do so and so wouldn't be considered in a comparison of stock game capability.

[Atarifever]

Additionally, the keyboard and high score cartridge were canceled, the expansion port was removed from later production runs of the system and, in lieu of new titles, the system was launched with titles intended for the 7800's debut in 1984. ust for the record:

The following is a list of successful keyboard add ons for consoles:

1)

 

That is all.

 

The following is a list of successful add on products that attach to a consoles expansion slot that have noticeably improved system sales:

1)

 

That is all.

 

Removing the expansion port and killing the keyboard were great moves. It saved money while costing the company exactly zero customers.

 

If that's an example of Tramiel being wrong, it's a good thing he wasn't right more often. A keyboard and expansion port really aren't game additions. An expansion port MIGHT be used to make better games, but it isn't guaranteed to do anything of the sort. Killing a keyboard and expansion port shows a seperation of the computer and console market, not a desire to kill one. If they'd wanted to kill the console division, they could have just done the XEGS, pumped out an expansion and Keyboard for the 7800, and assumed everyone playing Atari games now played them with a keyboard and disk drive. They could basically have done away with their console market by making two of their current entries into that market into computers (the XEGS AND the 7800).

 

They didn't. That tells me they wanted to have two markets.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Atarifever

[Metal Ghost]

Additionally, the keyboard and high score cartridge were canceled, the expansion port was removed from later production runs of the system and, in lieu of new titles, the system was launched with titles intended for the 7800's debut in 1984. ust for the record:

The following is a list of successful keyboard add ons for consoles:

1)

 

That is all.

 

The following is a list of successful add on products that attach to a consoles expansion slot that have noticeably improved system sales:

1)

 

That is all.

 

Removing the expansion port and killing the keyboard were great moves. It saved money while costing the company exactly zero customers.

 

If that's an example of Tramiel being wrong, it's a good thing he wasn't right more often. A keyboard and expansion port really aren't game additions. An expansion port MIGHT be used to make better games, but it isn't guaranteed to do anything of the sort. Killing a keyboard and expansion port shows a seperation of the computer and console market, not a desire to kill one. If they'd wanted to kill the console division, they could have just done the XEGS, pumped out an expansion and Keyboard for the 7800, and assumed everyone playing Atari games now played them with a keyboard and disk drive. They could basically have done away with their console market by making two of their current entries into that market into computers (the XEGS AND the 7800).

 

They didn't. That tells me they wanted to have two markets.

 

I'd disagree a bit on the point of successful add on products never having improved system sales. A USB port is simply a standardized add-on port for the modern age. And the Kinect has definitely created buzz around the 360 and improved overall system sales. Continuing on, likely to a much smaller extent, I'd conjecture that the Gameboy Advance Player drove some sales of the Gamecube, and at the very least can be considered a successful add-on.

 

Atarifever....I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate here (since this is a bit of a departure from my original thread intent, but nonetheless fun conversation!), but I think are valid points. I get what your saying here, and I'd probably agree that you're 90% right.

[The Usotsuki]

Family BASIC and the Famicom Disk System. Granted, Japan, but still.

[DracIsBack]

Family BASIC and the Famicom Disk System. Granted, Japan, but still.

 

Interestingly, the keyboard tanked in Japan, didn't it? I remember reading that at the time.

[Atarifever]

I'd disagree a bit on the point of successful add on products never having improved system sales. A USB port is simply a standardized add-on port for the modern age. And the Kinect has definitely created buzz around the 360 and improved overall system sales. Continuing on, likely to a much smaller extent, I'd conjecture that the Gameboy Advance Player drove some sales of the Gamecube, and at the very least can be considered a successful add-on.

 

I didn't think of the GBA thing. Full points there. I don't remember Nintendo packaging both together, but thinking about it, they really should have done a version like that. I think the Kinect created some buzz. However, I don't think it's the reason for continued good 360 sales. I think the two are mostly unrelated (save the Star Wars bundle).

 

The USB port thing is a pretty good example of a useful slot, but I think of it more as a memory card slot than an expansion one.

[The Usotsuki]

I can't imagine it tanked that hard if there were 3 revisions of the BASIC ROM o.O;

 

Also... Colecovision -> Adam?

[SoulBlazer]

I'd disagree a bit on the point of successful add on products never having improved system sales. A USB port is simply a standardized add-on port for the modern age. And the Kinect has definitely created buzz around the 360 and improved overall system sales. Continuing on, likely to a much smaller extent, I'd conjecture that the Gameboy Advance Player drove some sales of the Gamecube, and at the very least can be considered a successful add-on.

 

I didn't think of the GBA thing. Full points there. I don't remember Nintendo packaging both together, but thinking about it, they really should have done a version like that. I think the Kinect created some buzz. However, I don't think it's the reason for continued good 360 sales. I think the two are mostly unrelated (save the Star Wars bundle).

 

The USB port thing is a pretty good example of a useful slot, but I think of it more as a memory card slot than an expansion one.

 

What about the Sega CD and 32X? The CD was a pretty successfull add-on for the Genesis, and the 32X COULD have been. There was also the System Changer for the Intelivision that allowed you to play 2600 games and the Jaquar CD.

[gzsfrk]

The following is a list of successful add on products that attach to a consoles expansion slot that have noticeably improved system sales:

1)

 

That is all.

 

I seem to recall ColecoVision's Expansion Module #1 being rather a large seller, especially with Coleco using it to drive their "CV has the biggest games library" advertising campaign. Pretty sure that moved more than a few CV units. Not to mention Expansion Module #2 (trackball). I don't rightly recall if that one was a big seller or not, but it was by far the best hardware add-on for a classic system I've ever used. Awesome, awesome quality trackball, that. As for the CV Wheel and Super Action Controllers, even though they were (at least at some point) referred to as "expansions", since they didn't actually plug into the CV's expansion port I don't really think they count.

 

And yes, Sega CD was also a big seller and helped give the Genesis at least some competitive advantage against the SNES once Sega started losing ground in the great 16-bit console war (I well remember the excitement of CD-based games as the age of optical media first started taking off). The 32X on the other hand was a monumental flop that should never be used as an example of a system-selling add-on.

Edited September 11, 2012 by gzsfrk

[high voltage]

Nintendo wanted to launch the AVS with a keyboard AND musical keyboard in USA (Source: Game Over)

[Retro Rogue]

Nintendo wanted to launch the AVS with a keyboard AND musical keyboard in USA (Source: Game Over)

 

All of which Intellivision already had.

[high voltage]

and the APF (well, keyboard)

[108 Stars]

The 32X on the other hand was a monumental flop that should never be used as an example of a system-selling add-on.

 

Actually... while the 32X ultimately flopped, it sold very well initially. So well that Sega could not meet the demand for units in Christmas. Based on that I'd give it some credit, and it might have been quite successful had Sega continued to support it. But Sega Japan and Sega of America had very different goals at that time, and Japan had the saying. Sega of America would have wanted to support the 32X to keep the 16-bit-players that could not afford a Saturn hooked. But Sega of Japan, having the MD meaningless in their country couldn't wait to move on completely, they wanted to get rid of the MD family for good... as a result telling Sega of America they had to do the same; this includes the 32X barely getting manufactured because the lines were needed to Saturn, it includes game development, and marketing. It all had to go to Saturn, and that's why the 32X could not sustain its initial success and unltimately failed.

Edited September 11, 2012 by 108 Stars

[Metal Ghost]

Actually... while the 32X ultimately flopped, it sold very well initially. So well that Sega could not meet the demand for units in Christmas. Based on that I'd give it some credit, and it might have been quite successful had Sega continued to support it. But Sega Japan and Sega of America had very different goals at that time, and Japan had the saying. Sega of America would have wanted to support the 32X to keep the 16-bit-players that could not afford a Saturn hooked. But Sega of Japan, having the MD meaningless in their country couldn't wait to move on completely, they wanted to get rid of the MD family for good... as a result telling Sega of America they had to do the same; this includes the 32X barely getting manufactured because the lines were needed to Saturn, it includes game development, and marketing. It all had to go to Saturn, and that's why the 32X could not sustain its initial success and unltimately failed.

 

Interesting....I hadn't realized that.

[DracIsBack]

Actually... while the 32X ultimately flopped, it sold very well initially.

 

You sure about that? I remember it selling into the channel initially, but not all that well through to consumers. They were liquidating them for $29 to clear them off the shelves and there were mountains of them at every store near me.

[Atarifever]

But Sega Japan and Sega of America had very different goals at that time, and Japan had the saying. Sega of America would have wanted to support the 32X to keep the 16-bit-players that could not afford a Saturn hooked.

This is one of those facts that gets lost on the Wiki generation, and it's nice to see people finally setting it straight. Jack Tramiel hated the 7800 and Sega America launched the 32X as a one year stop gap are two of the most often repeated videogame fallacies on the internet.

 

I see a lot of people saying that Sega marketed the 32X as a system while planning to kill it as soon as the Saturn came out. However, the marketing WE saw here in North America was from Sega America, and as far as they were planning, the 32X was a new system that would be supported for years. No one lied to us about the 32X. Sega Japan poorly communicated (or lied) to Sega of America. The Sega we knew had no intention of selling a dead-end add on. They were selling a viable next gen option as far as they were concerned.