7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[onthinice]

Well said Stun Runner 87.

 

I still think it is pre-crash, but who says a crash really did happen. For me it did not seem like a true video game crash.

 

During this time I was using the Commodore Vic-20 and C64. When I looked up from the screen Nintendo and Sega had replaced Atari & Coleco. So I went back to computer gaming. I really never knew about the so called crash but I sure remember the games being discounted cheap. I picked up several 2600 games back then, but I remember TG-16 and 32X games going cheap was that a crash as well?

 

Can anyone define the crash? Some where in the world systems were still being bought, sold and played right?

 

Did anyone in the United States or for that matter the rest of the world really stop playing video games because someone said hey there is a crash going on?

Edited September 16, 2012 by onthinice

[Retro Rogue]

Well said Stun Runner 87.

 

I still think it is pre-crash, but who says a crash really did happen. For me it did not seem like a true video game crash.

 

During this time I was using the Commodore Vic-20 and C64. When I looked up from the screen Nintendo and Sega had replaced Atari & Coleco. So I went back to computer gaming. I really never knew about the so called crash but I sure remember the games being discounted cheap. I picked up several 2600 games back then, but I remember TG-16 and 32X games going cheap was that a crash as well?

 

Can anyone define the crash? Some where in the world systems were still being bought, sold and played right?

 

Did anyone in the United States or for that matter the rest of the world really stop playing video games because someone said hey there is a crash going on?

 

Please feel free to read through any of the many other threads on the subject, that question has more than been answered. Yes, there was a crash, it was a US industry crash, an no there has never been a claim of people stopping playing video games.

 

[DracIsBack]

Sorry to be a pain in everyone butt, but the 78 is Pre-Crash technology.....can we all at least agree on that?

 

The CPU was pre-crash (used in 5200), though said CPU continued on in post-crash systems like the Lynx too. Famicom/NES also used.

 

The GPU was developed during the crash and is newer than NES PPU, though focused in different areas.

 

The sound hardware was precrash, through GCC was working on a chip for the cartridge (GUMBY) when the contractual stuff hit.

 

The cartridge sizes with bankswitching are more typical of post-crash.

[DracIsBack]

I still think it is pre-crash, but who says a crash really did happen. For me it did not seem like a true video game crash.

 

 

 

The industry went from 3 billion to about 100 million in two years.

 

Game prices across consoles dropped from $50 to $1.99 in many cases.

 

Key resellers refused to carry video games after being stuck with mountains of inventory.

 

Many of the consoles were discontinued in that time.

 

Mattel left the industry, Atari had one of the most spectacular losses in video game history and the smaller players evaporated.

[onthinice]

Thanks Retro Rogue! I do not doubt the crash happened for some but in my town are first arcade opened in 1984. So for me at least a crash did not occur. Well maybe I think the arcade closed in 1985.

[onthinice]

Very good factual points DracIsBacK!

[Agent X]

Sorry, but I'll absolutely never agree with that. By virtue of the Famicom being out, in the market, in Japan, in 1983 and then finally released in test market in 1985 in the US and full market in 1986.

 

It makes absolutely no sense to me that the "NES" would be 'post crash' and the 7800 pre-crash. Yes, there are some technical differences between the two, but it's they both have all the earmarks of what I consider post-crash systems ...

 

... larger games

... side scrollers with many levels (even if there aren't many on the 7800, Scrapyard Dog does have 17levels)

... games with passwords

... more detailed graphics

... wide release post 1984

... the majority of games arriving in the second half of the 1980s

 

 

You can argue it all you want ... I think it's ludicrous to think of the 7800 as a "pre-crash" system. The system was being designed WHEN the industry was crashing. The NES had already been designed (as Famicom). Most consumers couldn't get one until 1986 (same for NES). Most games didn't come out till later.

 

That's a good summary of the similarities between the 7800 and the NES.

 

One other point I want to add to this, which was touched on earlier in the thread, was how the 7800 launch games all reflected pre-crash design philosophies in trying to replicate the arcade experience at home, similar to most systems from 1982 to 1984. However, you have to keep in mind that the majority of the NES launch window games were doing the same thing (or you could have some real fun and just look at the Famicom launch games). We didn't really see the more sophisticated "made for the home" adventure-style games on the NES until mid to late '86. By this time, Super Mario Bros. caught on, and Nintendo (along with many third parties) figured out how to differentiate their home games from standard arcade-style fare. Atari unfortunately took far too long to adapt to these new styles of games, but eventually they did.

 

Sorry to be a pain in everyone butt, but the 78 is Pre-Crash technology.....can we all at least agree on that?

 

Sure, I can agree with that...just like the NES is pre-crash technology too.

 

However, with regard to points made by DracIsBack and Retro Rogue (see post #17 of this thread), I'd consider both the NES and the 7800 to be categorized as coming from the same era. The "crash" itself is not a clearly defined date on the calendar, but rather a period of time that several events took place (and not affecting all markets in the world in the same way). In both cases, the hardware and first batch of titles were released during the crash (Famicom in Japan, 7800 in the test market), but the majority of game development and majority of sales clearly occurred after the crash. With that in mind, I would identify both the NES and 7800 as post-crash, as contrasted to something like the 2600 where the lion's share of both sales and game development clearly occurred before the crash.

[Stun Runner 87]

What's crazy, is that Famicom wanted Atari to build there Famicom in the U.S but Aari had there own creations in mind........Would of been kind of neat, if Atari did this......The NES would of Been the same machine with the Atari logo on it and the console probably would of been black, with a chrome plate so it would of looked cooler..........I know, I'm kind of just babbling on, lol....

[The Usotsuki]

You had a few of the same games on Nintendo - Galaga, Xevious - but that goes to figure since the system was 1983 in Japan and those were Japanese games.

[Retro Rogue]

What's crazy, is that Famicom wanted Atari to build there Famicom in the U.S but Aari had there own creations in mind........

 

Think you mean Nintendo, but no that's not what happened. Nintendo's deal was for Nintendo to manufacture all PCB's and electronics, with Atari only being allowed to do the casing and packaging. Likewise Atari had none of their own creations in mind, Yamauchi is the one that decided to walk. They had wanted the Atari branded console out in time for Christmas and when it was apparent that wasn't going to happen, they walked and decided to go it alone.

 

 

 

[Stun Runner 87]

That is correct.......All I was saying is the NES coulda been an Atari labeled console....would of been interesting.

[DracIsBack]

That is correct.......All I was saying is the NES coulda been an Atari labeled console....would of been interesting.

 

I wonder how well it would have done though? A lot of the retailers in the U.S. considered "Atari" and "Video Games" to be a bad word at the time, due to the glut of inventory during the crash. Nintendo really had to go out of their way to even get carried in stores initially ... agreeing to take things back, pay for promotions, package the NES so it looked like a VCR, branding it an "entertainment unit" and selling "game packs", the robot etc.

 

With an Atari name, messaging and casing? I wonder how many stores would have carried it?

[Stun Runner 87]

http://www.oddee.com/contrib_10743.aspx

[DracIsBack]

The story isn't as simple as that. It's an off-repeated story , much like Jack saying "we hate video games" and shelving the 7800 until he saw how well the NES was doing. There's a lot more to it than Atari seeing it and "passing" on it; or Atari getting mad over Donkey Kong.

[Atarifever]

The story isn't as simple as that. It's an off-repeated story , much like Jack saying "we hate video games" and shelving the 7800 until he saw how well the NES was doing. There's a lot more to it than Atari seeing it and "passing" on it; or Atari getting mad over Donkey Kong.

I think it's time to let it go. Once we start responding to entries on those types of terrible "top 10" lists, we've already lost. Next we'll be forced to explain how E.T. doesn't "require you to fall in every hole looking for phone pieces" or that Atari actually didn't put their "worst programmers" on E.T. and PacMan, but some of the best.

[Atarifever]

http://www.oddee.com...trib_10743.aspx

Oh Lord. I'm sorry, I know I'm the one who said to let this go, but I wanted to see the rest of that terrible list so I came back in here. I checked. I thought it was bad enough that wasn't a real source (no referencing, no background, no evidence of any kind to back the story), but I just noticed it was a reader contribution to the list, from a guy going by the name Killyou. And it only received 2 votes there from other readers. Not only is that not a source, it's basically a forum post. It's like quoting an earlier post from yourself in this thread.

 

Have we so lost the ability to tell truth from opinion? Really?

[Curt Vendel]

Most likely it would not have happened, the deal with very lopsided, no surprise since they were dealing with a Japanese firm. Also internal engineering memo's compared the GCC chip to the Famicom and the GCC was clearly a more preferred choice internally. One possibility might have seen Atari acquire the US Famicom license, then sit on it and do nothing and bar Nintendo from the US market. That would've been the best strategic move over all.

 

That is correct.......All I was saying is the NES coulda been an Atari labeled console....would of been interesting.

[Stun Runner 87]

Here's a link to a weird picture that was posted on atariage a few years back. http://www.atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_11_2010/post-27802-129090945358_thumb.jpg LMAO

[Jaynz]

I actually think you can put a date on the 'video game crash', really. Black Friday of 1983. That was the day the first 'mass liquidation' of 2600 titles really hit and you could start getting them for under $5 in bins. "Old games in the bin" is something we're used to now, as part of the gaming cycle, but in 1983 this was UNHEARD of, and the industry really didn't know what to do about it. Remember, Atari was still selling COMBAT as front-line title that late, along with AIR-SEA BATTLE, and so on. Unfortunately as Atari went, so did the other consoles...

[ApolloBoy]

Remember, Atari was still selling COMBAT as front-line title that late, along with AIR-SEA BATTLE, and so on.

Not really, Combat had largely been replaced as a pack-in by Pac-Man and later on that year Atari didn't even bother with a pack-in game for the 2600. By 1983 Atari was pushing a lot of the newer releases like Ms. Pac-Man, Centipede, Dig Dug, etc.

[Jaynz]

Not really, Combat had largely been replaced as a pack-in by Pac-Man and later on that year Atari didn't even bother with a pack-in game for the 2600. By 1983 Atari was pushing a lot of the newer releases like Ms. Pac-Man, Centipede, Dig Dug, etc.

 

Yeah, but stores STILL had a ton of the older carts around, plus a ton more of the second and third-tier 3rd party carts by that time. Pac-Man carts were available by the dozens, as were older 'color-cover' carts. As a result, a lot of the newer games, the 'Silver Carts' wound up being more rare since retailers didn't WANT more product and distributors were full of older, non-selling games. In 1983, no one wanted Circus Atari anymore, but there were still shit-load of them available in the market.

 

Remember, these guys, back then, didn't understand their own market. To them, a 'video game' wasn't any different than a 45 single, a Hot Wheels Car, or a Barbie Doll. They really didn't understand the concepts of 'technological curve' or 'old stock' pricing. It's a lesson they SHOULD have learned with the first console crash of 1978 (the end of dedicated Pong machines), but both didn't learn it nor did they want to learn it. To them, the fade-out of the Atari 2600 was long overdue for a fad, and it was best to finally get rid of all that garbage for the next new must-own toy for kids.

[NIKON]

I have got to chime in on this one. (even though this topic is almost a month old based on the original post date).

To start with I am an Atari fan from back in the 2600 days...I was lucky enough to have had an Atari 2600 console in my house when it came out. I thought ..WOW home arcade..but the games were not exactly like the arcade games.. but you didn't have to keep putting quarters into the thing to keep playing. That was a big plus for the 2600...the quality of the console was also a plus for the 2600. What was killing the 2600 was lack of original games later on..every game was being published by the "me too" companies trying to cash in on the hottest selling console of its time. The 2600 was an at home arcade machine...it was its function...designation if you will.

 

Now fast forward to the 7800. This console (as you all know) was first called the 3600...it was to replace the 2600 so that it could keep pace with what else was out there and the games would not work on the 2600 console...so development of the 3600 was commissioned. It did what it was supposed to do..play arcade games at home. It was its function and it did and still does that very well.

 

Now if you look at Nintendo in the early years..it played games that Nintendo made...it fulfilled its purpose...early Nintendo games were not any "prettier" than 7800 games..they were just different and that was what the public wanted...something different. The early games suffered from lag, flicker, glitches, prone to freezing...things that were addressed by the company servicing their product. Many revisions later and new technology being invented led to better games because carts were morphed into mini systems that only needed an OS to make work. The original Super Mario Bros compared to Super Mario Brothers 3 is prehistoric in all aspects of the game. Reason being is that no company knows fully what their hardware is capable of unless they push the envelope...and that takes time and in the business world time is money and if there is no profit in it..then it is a cost and put on the back burner.

 

NOW...I bought my Atari 7800 from a Federated store way back when...and Asteroids at the same time. I did not care for the NES at that time...I wanted a console that I knew and trusted to do what I wanted it to do...and the 7800 did just that...performed its function very well.

 

Point is.. does it really matter what the 7800 is considered..pre or post...I feel now that the 7800 is coming into its own and finally being realized for it's full potential. Case in point.. The Pac Man collection...I mean I was blown away by it.. graphics..choices...sound...all top notch. I mean Ms PacMan alone is better on this version than the original..(this is only my opinion)

 

I still prefer the 7800 to the NES because I feel that all the 7800 games I play have replay value to them...I don't have to dedicate an entire afternoon to one game so I can finish it..no I prefer beating my own scores and scores of others as a personal accomplishment to me.

 

The 7800 does what it was designed to do...and that is all it will ever do. Trying to get the 7800 to do what the NES was designed to do is like trying to get an apple to be an orange.. not going to happen.

[Trebor]

The 7800 was not to replace the 2600. The 5200 was to replace the 2600. The Atari 7800 was in development in the latter stages of the Atari 5200's life cycle.

 

What the 7800 was positioned to do was redeem Atari in the video game market. Atari interviewed thousands of people in order to understand what people wanted exactly in a next generation video game system before having GCC design the 7800.

 

The Atari 7800 was designed to be expandable as well as flexible according to consumer demands. The view the console was designed for a certain type of game or games is due to the poor investment and choices after the hardware was originally designed, and as mentioned earlier the overwhelming lack of additional cartridge hardware support.

 

People recalling or selective picking to highlight certain NES games that were released or/and system design difference is ignoring some basic facts listed earlier regarding the 7800 and NES that DracIsBack and others listed succinctly.

 

Here is the original release list of titles in the US for the NES:

 

10-Yard Fight

Baseball

Clu Clu Land

Donkey Kong Jr. Math

Duck Hunt

Excitebike

Golf

Gyromite

Hogan's Alley

Ice Climber

Kung-Fu

Mach Rider

Pinball

Stack-Up

Super Mario Bros.

Tennis

Wild Gunman

Wrecking Crew

 

Nothing revolutionary, nothing groundbreaking and certainly not one thing that could not be done similar or exactly on the 7800. Later NES titles appear so much more ‘advanced’ or give the impression that the NES hardware was designed so much more differently or newer than anything the 7800 could handle is due to hardware put on the cart - Not the system hardware or design.

 

If Atari would have had the opportunity and/or the smarts to handle the 7800 in the way Nintendo did regarding the NES, and NES was left with just their original 18 titles above along with the next 12 that followed…

 

Balloon Fight

Donkey Kong

Donkey Kong Jr.

Donkey Kong 3

Gumshoe

Mario Bros.

Popeye

Pro Wrestling

Slalom

Soccer

Urban Champion

Volleyball

 

…Where are the impressive ‘advanced’ titles and non-arcade games? The first 18 games along with the next dozen games released on the NES without additional cart hardware and using just the NES console system hardware, produced exactly the same type of games you see for many of those on the 7800 – Arcade-like games that the 7800 could easily manage just as well with the basic console hardware.

 

If the 7800 was supported by Atari the same way the NES was supported by Nintendo, including hundreds of games with copious amounts of additional hardware on cartridge and games designed to take advantage of it, and If the NES was supported as poorly as the 7800, with the aforementioned 30 games with perhaps a few more titles only released for it, people would be stating how the 7800 is a more advanced next generation system than the NES – and how the NES is a “pre-crash” system…Just look at the games released on the NES - 30 arcade titles with a few others in tow.

 

Conclusively, as stated numerous times, if anyone is going to classify or group the 7800 among pre-crash era systems the same would have to be done for the NES. Comparing or trying to state system design or intention is a combination of misinformation and misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with a 'true' comparison and the facts. The later ’advanced’ NES games were possible not due to system hardware but cartridge.

 

The Atari 7800 could have pulled the same or very similar NES 'advanced' games that people recall if circumstances - not console hardware - differed.

 

 

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Trebor

[GroovyBee]

including hundreds of games with copious amounts of additional hardware on cartridge

 

Bank switching on NES carts is not copious amounts of hardware. Anything up to and including MMC3 the 7800 can do with MARIA as stock or with equivalent bank switching methods in its carts.

[Trebor]

Bank switching on NES carts is not copious amounts of hardware. Anything up to and including MMC3 the 7800 can do with MARIA as stock or with equivalent bank switching methods in its carts.

Right...That leaves:

 

MMC4,MMC5, MMC6, VRC2, VRC4, VRC6, VRC7, NAMCO106, FME-7, and a few others.

 

The "copious" comment is in regards to the lump sum of hardware contained on several hundred titles that could not and do not run on stock NES hardware without one or more additional chips on cart; copious respects not just referring to one cartridge - although I would think that is obvious.

 

Glad you got a kick out of the statement though, Groovy.