7800 - A Pre- or Post-Crash Console?

[Trebor]

Largest Atari 7800 game 144KB.

The majority of games fall way below that.

 

Let's take a brief look at some NES titles:

 

Action 52 = 2,000KB+

Maxi 15 = 1,000KB+

Kirby's Adventure = 768KB

AD&D Pool of Radiance & Dragon Strike = 640KB each

Cowboy Kid = 512KB

Dragon Warrior 3 & 4 = 512KB each

Mega Man 4-6 = 512 KB each

Star Tropics 1 & 2 = 512 KB each

TMNT 2 & 3 = 512 KB each

Wario Woods = 512 KB

 

And the list goes on and on....

 

In fact there are ~450 games @160KB or greater on the NES.

 

Yes, much is bankswitching/memory, but it doesn't negate the fact that it is still additional memory/chip hardware on the cartridges that well surpasses the largest of 7800 games - It is actually kind of the point. As noted with some of the more popular and impressive games, they are well over three and half times the largest 7800 cart size.

 

Let's take Groovy's mention of MMC3. Sure it could be handled, but not without a heck of a lot more memory (backswitching, as noted) - Considering a game like Super Mario Bros. 3 needed 384KB. Adding that additional hardware memory (aka bankswitching) that Nintendo did to the cartridge, and yes the Atari 7800 could pull it off. It just needs over two and a half times the largest 7800 game size to match what Nintendo provided.

 

Then you have cases where even if you match memory/backswitching at over two and half times the largest 7800 game, there are numerous other additions to the standard cart enhancing the NES capabilities.

 

Take Castlevania III for example. It's a 384KB game like Super Mario Bros. 3, but it is not a MMC3 title, it is a MMC5 which includes: additional sound channels - two square waves, supports vertical split screen scrolling, improved graphics capabilities (making 16,384 different tiles available per screen rather than only 256 - also each individual 8x8-pixel background tile has its own color assignment instead of being restricted to one color set per 2x2 tile group), highly configurable program and character ROM bank switching, and a scanline-based IRQ counter.

 

So, you have a 384KB game (Over two and a half times the largest 7800 cart size) in addition to:

 

-Added sound channels

-Enhanced graphics - Including number of colors and amount of tiles-64 times greater!

-Additional graphic capabilities adding vertical split screen scrolling.

-Misc. additions of highly configurable program and character ROMs along with an IRQ counter.

 

And some complain about the XM making the 7800 not a 7800 anymore. Look at the above mapper; it is practically turning the NES into a new console system...lol.

 

Strip all the extra and added capabilities (including greater bankswitching/memory added to the cartridges than the 7800) hardware from hundreds of NES games, look at Nintendo’s first 30 (“black-box”) game releases, and you will see how silly the notion of NES being a ‘post-crash’ console system while the 7800 is not. The Atari 7800 like the NES is a post-crash system.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Trebor

[Metal Ghost]

Strip all the extra and added capabilities (including greater bankswitching/memory added to the cartridges than the 7800) hardware from hundreds of NES games, look at Nintendo’s first 30 (“black-box”) game releases, and you will see how silly the notion of NES being a ‘post-crash’ console system while the 7800 is not. The Atari 7800 like the NES is a post-crash system.

 

Well, if you stripped all the extra and added capabilities from the hundreds of NES games, you'd be re-writing history. That's the point: the NES had all of those things, and the Atari did not get all of those bells and whistles throughout the years. For the 7800, time stood still!!! It shouldn't have, it's a shame that it did, and there was no reason that it had to have. The 7800 could have been expanded in many of the same ways as the NES, but it wasn't. That almost proves my point, nothing was ever done to expand the system past it's pre-crash roots. It was designed pre-crash (or during), and it always had that aura cling to it. And the pre-ponderence of games that people saw for the system screamed 1983, not 1987.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Metal Ghost

[Trebor]

Following that logic...If say a system is released today like "XYZ" and the only games every released for it are classic arcade games from 81-83 before it goes bankrupt and released no other titles, does that make system "XYZ" pre-crash too?

 

Time did not stand still for the 7800 - and there are plenty of reasons why the system lacked support and adding hardware to carts in the same fashion as the NES was not done by Atari...Not that the reasoning is necessarily agreeable or wise, but plenty has been written as to why that is the case.

 

Your statements prove the NES is as pre-crash "rooted" as the 7800 with the difference between the two is the NES had carts with the added hardware lacking from the 7800. The reason being not because the Atari 7800 system or carts could not handle it. It could handle it just as fine as the NES, the financial backing and approval was not there.

 

Between all the aforementioned, including the facts listed in these posts...

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/202527-7800-a-pre-or-post-crash-console/?do=findComment&comment=2594835

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/202527-7800-a-pre-or-post-crash-console/page__st__25?do=findComment&comment=2595182

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/202527-7800-a-pre-or-post-crash-console/page__st__100?do=findComment&comment=2600371

 

...if you still feel the 7800 is a pre-crash system, it does not make logical sense, unless you also categorize the NES as a pre-crash system.

[Metal Ghost]

I'm glad someone mentioned the 2600 (and INTV for that matter). They were both sold post-crash also, for years. And yet those aren't considered 'post-crash consoles'. Whether or not the NES should or should not be is perhaps another topic of disucssion. I guess I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand (though I know it was mentioned only to prove a point). But that's irregardless....the 7800 is a direct product of the times it was designed in, and those times were pre/during the N.A. video game console crash period Now had a post-Warner Atari had the resources to develop games that were in-keeping with the times and consumers tastes, then perhaps the system could have grown out of this mold. But it didn't, and to the layperson (and heck....even most VG afficianados!) the games for 7800 were 'classic' Atari-type stuff. So the system didn't really have the chance to develop a post-crash persona, regardless of the PC ports and other games developed for the system. Those games simply didn't make enough of an impact on the average gamer of the time to change opinions.

 

And regardless, NES: released in my home country in '85/'86. Atari 7800: released in my home country in '84. Plug in TV game system that plays Pac-Man: release 2012. NES = Post-Crash; 7800 = Pre-Crash; Jak's Pacific Golden Age Game System ™ = Post-Crash.

 

To someone in Japan, this wouldn't be the case. Famicom = Pre-Crash, but then again there was no crash in Japan, so they'd consider this a pretty silly discussion

Edited September 26, 2012 by Metal Ghost

[DracIsBack]

And regardless, NES: released in my home country in '85/'86. Atari 7800: released in my home country in '84.

To someone in Japan, this wouldn't be the case. Famicom = Pre-Crash, but then again there was no crash in Japan, so they'd consider this a pretty silly discussion

 

With all due respect, that is a desperate argument.

 

The world is not the US. The Famicom PPU and he NES PPU are the same thing. The sound and Processor are the same thing.

 

Trying to claim that the 7800 is precrash due to a few weeks, two market test launch is silly... Especially when millions had the Famicom technology widely available elsewhere in the world.

 

You're really, really grasping at straws to cling to this.

[Metal Ghost]

With all due respect, that is a desperate argument.

 

The world is not the US. The Famicom PPU and he NES PPU are the same thing. The sound and Processor are the same thing.

 

Trying to claim that the 7800 is precrash due to a few weeks, two market test launch is silly... Especially when millions had the Famicom technology widely available elsewhere in the world.

 

You're really, really grasping at straws to cling to this.

 

With all due respect, who said that the world is the US? I for one did not, good Canadian sir. However, when trying to define something, one can reasonably expect a person to put it within the cultural context of one's own country. I do not believe that is grasping for straws. Beyond that, I do not believe that a 1984 launch is silly either. That's like saying that the Buffalo Bills really did win Super Bowl XXV (that's American Football Drac and Groovy, the sport with the oblong ball....just wanted to put it in my own cultural context ) because, after all the field goal wasn't that far right. A few feet....a few weeks....what's the difference?

[Trebor]

Sega Genesis/Mega Drive

Released in Japan Oct 1988, US Aug 1989, Europe Nov 1990.

 

Super Nintendo/Famicom

Released in Japan Nov 1990, US Aug 1991, Europe Apr 1992.

 

No matter what country/region you are from would anyone argue against the Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo are of the same era and generation? Of course not! This is in spite of the consoles being released no less than 1.5 to upwards of 2 years apart from each other.

 

Again, logic fails in trying to justify that that NES is a post-crash console and the Atari 7800 pre-crash despite (a new angle) that the systems were released with a several week difference from each other in your country/region. Really, Japan wouldn't be the only ones thinking the discussion is silly, especially with all the facts and reasoning provided at this point.

 

The only way you can make any sense of the Atari 7800 being pre-crash is if you view the NES as being pre-crash as well. Otherwise, the Atari 7800 like the NES is a post-crash system.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Trebor

[GroovyBee]

the sport with the oblong ball....

 

Oh! You mean Rugby! Ahhh... Makes sense now...

[Metal Ghost]

Oh! You mean Rugby! Ahhh... Makes sense now...

 

 

@ Trebor: I would disagree. As I stated on a prior page, if one is going to pull the NES into the conversation, then perhaps it should be discussed as being pre-crash. That's a possibility. I do not think it's silly to state that a console, that was sold to the public before the end of the American Video Game Crash, is a pre-crash console. What in that last statement is so silly?? Add adjectives and adverbs to it, such as limited release, etc if you like. But again, just tell me, what in this statement is flat out false: The Atari 7800 was sold to the public in 1984, prior to the end of what is commonly referred to as the the 'American Video Game Industry Crash'? I read page after page of comparing technical specifications, and what ifs re: had improvements actually implemented on the NES been also implemented on the 7800, and what if a TV plug in console is released today with golden age games on it, does that make it a 'pre-crash' console.

 

And finally, I'm not even saying that the 7800 and NES are from different console generations!!! The problem with that statement is assuming that one console generation ends in 1984 and the next console generation begins the subsequent year. I don't believe it does, nor have I ever made statement to such effect. The 'pre/post console' timeline and console 'generation' timelines don't line up. Which brings me back to the paragraph above. The part highlighted in bold, is that wrong???

[Atarifever]

(that's American Football Drac and Groovy, the sport with the oblong ball....just wanted to put it in my own cultural context )

And the tiny little field and the higher number of downs to let your fat slow players have a chance playing gridiron right? Because we call something very similar (but much better) by the same name here. Ours has an oblong ball too, but for some reason we can move it down the field quicker, with less time outs, and less overall stoppage.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Atarifever

[Atarifever]

The Atari 7800 was sold to the public in 1984, prior to the end of what is commonly referred to as the the 'American Video Game Industry Crash'?

But I thought cultural context was important? See, I'm in North America, but I couldn't get it then. Not in my entire country. I guess you don't mean the crash in the Americas, but rather the U.S. specific area of the crash in the Americas, which also happened in other parts of the Americas, where, in fact, the 7800 was not even test marketed before the crash was over, maybe, depending on where you mark the crash. Seems like an awful complex and specific route to have to take to believe you have a pre-crash console there. I'd suggest you just go buy a 2600 if you have to reach that far.

[Metal Ghost]

And the tiny little field and the higher number of downs to let your fat slow players have a chance playing gridiron right? Because we call something very similar (but much better) by the same name here. Ours has an oblong ball too, but for some reason we can move it down the field quicker, with less time outs, and less overall stoppage.

 

Wow, I haven't resorted to riduculing sports that your like, so I guess you have that on your side. Kudos!

[Trebor]

 

@ Trebor: I would disagree. As I stated on a prior page, if one is going to pull the NES into the conversation, then perhaps it should be discussed as being pre-crash. That's a possibility. I do not think it's silly to state that a console, that was sold to the public before the end of the American Video Game Crash, is a pre-crash console. What in that last statement is so silly?? Add adjectives and adverbs to it, such as limited release, etc if you like. But again, just tell me, what in this statement is flat out false: The Atari 7800 was sold to the public in 1984, prior to the end of what is commonly referred to as the the 'American Video Game Industry Crash'?

 

Was the 7800 sold to a very limited public market in 1984? Yes. The NES was sold to the public -nationwide- release in Japan as of July 1983.

 

Once again, from the facts presented you cannot have the NES as a post-crash console and the Atari 7800 pre-crash it makes no sense.

 

If your focus on this specific angle on trying to convice the 7800 as being pre-crash is the year a limited test market was sold for the system, you would first have to come to a consensus of when the market crash "began" and "ended". I've read it starting as soon as 82 and ending in 83, others have it starting in 83 and ending in 85. Some state 83 exclusively.

 

Regardless, as already mentioned, the NES was sold in 1983 which is undisputedly prior to the end of the video game crash. Therefore, from that view the NES is pre-crash (And as already mentioned) it can make sense then to see the 7800 as pre-crash as well.

 

I do not agree with either the NES or the 7800 being pre-crash; but if you see it that way with that very narrow and specific perspective angle - as many other angles show both systems to be post-crash - then I undertsand how both systems can be viewed as pre-crash to you.

 

Let's wrap this up with what i already stated...

If you have the viewpoint that the NES is a pre-crash console, then it makes sense how you view the 7800 as a pre-crash console.

 

If you have the viewpoint that the NES is a post-crash console then it only makes logical and reasonable sense to view the Atari 7800 the same way.

 

EDIT:

Heck Metal-Ghost, your new angle is one that could possibly make the NES pre-crash while the Atari 7800 is post-crash.

 

If I were to take your perspective of when a console was first sold to the public along with firmly believing the market crash was a 1983 event only, then that leaves the NES as pre and the 7800 as post.

 

I don't agree, but from your grasping you've created the above possibility.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Trebor

[Atarifever]

Wow, I haven't resorted to riduculing sports that your like, so I guess you have that on your side. Kudos!

 

Sorry, but what? I'm ridiculing a sport I always poke fun at, because Canadian and American football fans (fans of the leauges I mean, not just people from each country, as I know many Canadian NFL fans who hate CFL) are supposed to do that. Are you under the impression I was doing it to hurt you? Hurt you. By making fun of slight variations between the version of football played in our two countries? Sorry if I did, but it's not my goal.

 

It's a well worn tradition. I guess we're more aware of it up here. Anyway, sorry if making fun of the fact that NFL field size is based on the available size of Yale's field a century ago seems like I am insulting you.

[Metal Ghost]

Agreed, I shouldn't have taken offense at it. Maybe it's because the Canadian side of the Falls is better than the US. Anyway, I'm going to go play on my pre-crash 7800

[Atarifever]

Agreed, I shouldn't have taken offense at it. Maybe it's because the Canadian side of the Falls is better than the US. Anyway, I'm going to go play on my pre-crash 7800

Enjoy! If nothing else, this topic is clearly interesting to many people.

 

I don`t remember if you were here when Al tried to change the description of the 7800 on the forums page. This sort of debate sprang up, and for awhile he had as a description "the Atari 7800 was a console from Atari" as that was all anyone could agree with as regarded the history of the system.

[Trebor]

I don`t remember if you were here when Al tried to change the description of the 7800 on the forums page. This sort of debate sprang up, and for awhile he had as a description "the Atari 7800 was a console from Atari" as that was all anyone could agree with as regarded the history of the system.

 

That debate was epic...lol. The 7800 does not have the largest fan base, but the most passionate of fans is nearly unquestionable.

[DracIsBack]

Anyway, I'm going to go play on my pre-crash 7800

 

Ahh - so it was widely available and for sale before this time?

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=auAjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FSoEAAAAIBAJ&dq=video%20game%20crash&pg=2223%2C4670465

[The Usotsuki]

Keep in mind a lot of early Famicom games were arcade ports. The Famicom was much like its American competitors; it just had better hardware than most, arguably (the 7800 is probably the closest) all of them.

[high voltage]

And regardless, NES: released in my home country in '85/'86. Atari 7800: released in my home country in '84. Plug in TV game system that plays Pac-Man: release 2012. NES = Post-Crash; 7800 = Pre-Crash; Jak's Pacific Golden Age Game System ™ = Post-Crash.

 

To someone in Japan, this wouldn't be the case. Famicom = Pre-Crash, but then again there was no crash in Japan, so they'd consider this a pretty silly discussion

 

Actually the NES was launched at the January 84 CES, it was called the AVS, it failed, it was launched again in 84 at the June CES, it failed again. Finally it was launched again at the June 85 CES under the new name NES. (source Game Over). so one could say even in USA the NES was a pre-7800 product.

Edited September 27, 2012 by high voltage

[Metal Ghost]

Enjoy! If nothing else, this topic is clearly interesting to many people.

 

I don`t remember if you were here when Al tried to change the description of the 7800 on the forums page. This sort of debate sprang up, and for awhile he had as a description "the Atari 7800 was a console from Atari" as that was all anyone could agree with as regarded the history of the system.

 

I want to say that I was either floating around for that, or at the very least at the tail end of it. I seem to remember it somehow. Yea, I'm glad people have enjoyed going back and forth on this one....first time any thread I've ever started has made it to page seven. Woo-hoo! LOL

[Atarifever]

That debate was epic...lol. The 7800 does not have the largest fan base, but the most passionate of fans is nearly unquestionable.

I want to say that I was either floating around for that, or at the very least at the tail end of it. I seem to remember it somehow. Yea, I'm glad people have enjoyed going back and forth on this one....first time any thread I've ever started has made it to page seven. Woo-hoo! LOL

 

Know the worst part about any arguments here? They're always with incredibly cool people (cool in my opinion anyway). By and large, most of us don't know ANYONE else who likes games as much as we do, on the systems we do, and with as much knowledge of them as we do. If I ran into anyone here in real life, I'd practically talk their ear off (and vice versa I'm sure) because of all the pent up years of wanting someone to talk to who actually likes this shit as much as me. However, on here it's like "you utter, utter fool. Clearly the Wizard of Odyssey is a superior advertising campaign to the Plimpton Intelliviosion one! I'd question your I.Q. were it not so obvious you don't have one! Now begone knave!"

 

Honestly, most arguments here are more fun than agreements in my real life.

[Metal Ghost]

Know the worst part about any arguments here? They're always with incredibly cool people (cool in my opinion anyway). By and large, most of us don't know ANYONE else who likes games as much as we do, on the systems we do, and with as much knowledge of them as we do. If I ran into anyone here in real life, I'd practically talk their ear off (and vice versa I'm sure) because of all the pent up years of wanting someone to talk to who actually likes this shit as much as me. However, on here it's like "you utter, utter fool. Clearly the Wizard of Odyssey is a superior advertising campaign to the Plimpton Intelliviosion one! I'd question your I.Q. were it not so obvious you don't have one! Now begone knave!"

 

Honestly, most arguments here are more fun than agreements in my real life.

 

I've actually wondered how my friends here at home, the ones that I've known since I was a kid, are not as into gaming as I am. What gives! Yea, discussions here are always a good time, even when we get worked up. LOL So all you folks going to the PRGE this weekend make the best of it, you lucky SOBs!!

[Retro Rogue]

7800 = Pre-Crash; Jak's Pacific Golden Age Game System ™ = Post-Crash.

 

To someone in Japan, this wouldn't be the case. Famicom = Pre-Crash, but then again there was no crash in Japan, so they'd consider this a pretty silly discussion

 

No, the understanding of the time period of the crash presented above is off. The U.S. industry crash started in December of '82 and reached it's crescendo with Atari's collapse/split in July '84. Both the Famicom and 7800 are during crash systems, with the full release of the 7800 happening post crash. Technically the crash didn't reach it's completion until Coleco finally liquidated the Colecovision in the Summer of '85.

 

 

Actually the NES was launched at the January 84 CES, it was called the AVS, it failed, it was launched again in 84 at the June CES, it failed again. Finally it was launched again at the June 85 CES under the new name NES. (source Game Over). so one could say even in USA the NES was a pre-7800 product.

 

No, the January '84 date was from Sheff's book and it's wrong. It was shown at the January '85 CES as the AVS, Yamaguchi had just walked away from Atari in September and wanted to sit back and see what the market did after seeing the problems Atari was facing (predicting Atari's collapse). There is zero coverage of the AVS at the January '84 CES or the June '84 CES where the 7800 debuted. It debuted at the January '85 CES to little fanfare, and then as a hyrbrid cross between the AVS and NES (officially called the NES) in June '85. I actually have the folder for that one.

 

 

[Jaynz]

The basic reason why the 7800 is considered a 'pre-crash' system is because of the behaviour of Atari itself. Atari was looking backwards, Nintendo, and to a lesser extent Sega, were looking ahead. Pretty much as simple as that, really. All you need for evidence of that was the 7800's sound chip... by 1987, Atari was just cashing out, and had no strategy for moving forward with gaming. Both Nintendo and Sega had plans for new consoles, spent money on their games, pushed their hardware with card-expansions... etc. The 7800 was advertising the fact that it could play 2600 games...