What can a seller do to protect themselves on ebay?

[Hyper_Eye]

A couple of months ago I purchased a really large Atari 2600 and 7800 lot. I kept a lot of stuff out of the lot and broke the rest into a couple of good starter lots. Here was one of them: eBay Auction -- Item Number: 230891423649

 

The console has a couple small dings on it, as is visible in the pictures, but it was in good condition otherwise. This was actually my console for quite a while. I took great pride in preparing these lots. That console was completely cleaned, the controllers all work and were completely cleaned, and each cart was cleaned inside and out (with the exception of labels) and then tested. I did not sell a single broken item.

 

When it comes to this lot I wrapped the console itself in bubble wrap. The entire box was filled with shipping popcorn and the box was lined with paper. Also, it actually cost me twice what I charged to ship it.

 

Today I received this message:

 

Hi,

We just recieved the Atari 7800 system and it is complete junk! The back of it is cracked, and the switch in the back is smashed up inside of the console and there is crap rattling around inside of the unit itself. This is not how you described this item and im sending it back and i want a complete refund including shipping.

 

They included this image:

 

This is absolutely not the condition the console was in when I sent it. I would never sell a console that looks like this. If I had something that looked like this it would be good for parts. I don't believe this is even the same unit. There is too much dirt and dust on it. The unit I sent was thoroughly cleaned. I believe this buyer is trying to scam me.

 

I sent this response:

 

That is NOT the condition of the unit that I sent you. I sent my own personal unit that I cared for myself. It was in good condition and it was well packed. Were there signs of damage to the box that was delivered? Do not send that unit back to me before we have agreed to a resolution. This is not the proper process for dealing with an ebay dispute.

 

I have been doing some reading and it looks like both the ebay rules and the paypal rules are stacked against me. It looks like the buyer can file a claim and get a refund even if he doesn't ship anything back to me. What are my options here? Should I just eat the cost and chalk it up to the cost of doing business on ebay? If this was damaged in shipping (and I think that is unlikely given how it was packed and what I see in the picture) this could have been resolved. I could have sent the person another console. They don't seem interested in resolving an issue. They seem interested in sending me this broken crap and getting a refund regardless of what really happened.

 

It seems to me that between snipers and scammers ebay is really only good for buyers. Unless you are a seller that moves enough volume to absorb some bad transactions the risk is just too high!

[bennybingo]

 

What can a seller do to protect themselves on ebay?

 

 

Invest in plenty of lube...eBay is a cesspool nowadays.

[mike99mccarthy]

I had almost the exact same problem.... I sold my personal 7800 on ebay. I put in a large flat rate so there really wasn't enough room for it. The buyer stated it was cracked(almost in the same spot). Luckily I had posted a picture of the s/n tag on here in the 7800 subforum. I was assuming that the buyer purchased my unit with the intention of sending back a second broken system for a full refund. The buyer was actually honest however; The s/n did match. I ended up issuing a partial refund and we were both happy. to sum it up;

If it is truly the same unit and it was cracked during shipping then give him a refund. the only thing you might be able to do is file a claim with USPS. If you suspect he is sending you pics of a second system he already had that was broken and you don't have the s/n it would be impossible to prove it

[mike99mccarthy]

fyi his ebay user id was sir_ian_gandalf just incase it could somehow be the same guy

I had him take a picture were I could see the s/n sticker & the damage at the same time. you could bluff like you have the s/n just to try and call his bluff

[Hyper_Eye]

So this person has responded by telling me that the box had no damage and the unit had to of been like that when packaged and they are MAD. This person is flat out calling me a liar and demanding a refund. Holy crap! This is not worth it. I'd rather lose my ass selling this stuff to a local shop than deal with this. I should have sold it here! I can't believe this nonsense.

[Hyper_Eye]

By the way.... here is part of what the guy said:

 

I spent top dollar on this Atari because of your description. There are plenty of others i could have bought, but i wanted the best one, and i got the worst one. IM MAD!

 

Here is the condition, as selected from the auction listing options, using eBays description:

 

Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections

 

Here is all of my auction description as it pertains to the console itself:

 

This is a great Atari 7800 lot for any Atari or classic gaming fan that wants some of the most memorable and fun games from the Atari 2600 and 7800 era, someone looking to start their collection, or upgrade from the Atari 2600 to the Atari 7800.

 

This lot includes all of the following items:

 

Atari 7800 Black Game Console

 

How did I describe the unit as "the best"? I didn't describe the unit! I selected the option that included "some cosmetic wear" and all of the wear is visible in the pictures being the two dings in the label area. It doesn't even seem like this guy is referring to my auction! I feel like I've been set up.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Hyper_Eye

[kennybrooks]

Unfortunately, Ebay will side with the buyer. I would go ahead and issue the refund. If you have them officially go through Ebay it will count against you. It is what Ebay has become and is simply a bad deal for the seller. But as Ebay knows, if you want to sell on their site you will abide by their wishes. If you can find a better avenue to sell, I would use it. Again though, Ebay is where you get the most money (and hassle) it would seem.

[icemanxp300]

Not neccessarily. I won a similiar dispute regarding a snes a few years back.

 

This is what you do. First off ask him for more pictures of the system NOT just the broken part. I would ask him if it works and see what he says. I think the working part is what won me my dispute.

 

Report back for further instructions

 

edit: you do not under any circumstances issue a refund yet.

Edited December 15, 2012 by icemanxp300

[icemanxp300]

request this exact picture!

 

[RickR]

I dealt with a similar buyer a while ago. Just a complete @ss who accused me of many ridiculous things. Stick to the truth, and don't give in to bullying. Ask for a picture showing the damage AND the serial number in the same lot. Be truthful and professional in your e-mails. What was your return policy on the auction? Ask for a picture of the box to start an insurance claim. In all cases, never get nasty in your e-mails. Ebay will look at them. And ALWAYS respond using ebay (instead of just plain e-mail). So they can see them.

 

Believe it or not, ebay will be on your side if you are honest and have proof. Stick to your story that you don't think that is the unit you sent, and you'd like to see the picture with a serial number. Respond to every e-mail ebay sends. In truth, freedom.

 

In my case, I gave the guy a partial refund, and then he STILL sent me bullying e-mails about not opening a case or "stirring anything up" or he'd negative feedback me. I blocked him from my auctions, and he sent me MORE bullying e-mails from a different account asking why I blocked him. Blocked that account too. It was sick because I sold a prized Atari 800 in pristine condition. Best one I ever owned. Sad to see it go to such a jerk. Oh well.

 

Block the guy. Most ebay buyers are good and honest. Describe your items honestly and truthfully, and things usually go fine. Like life, you'll run into real jerks, cheaters, scumbags, etc. Just don't let em effect your blood pressure, keep good documentation, and finally -- realize one negative feedback isn't the end of the world. If it happens, you can work with ebay to have it retracted.

[RickR]

.

Edited December 15, 2012 by RickR

[icemanxp300]

Just don't let em effect your blood pressure, keep good documentation, and finally -- realize one negative feedback isn't the end of the world. If it happens, you can work with ebay to have it retracted.

 

I spent weeks trying to get the negative I got removed. The best I was able to get was the comment deleted. They do not remove feedback very easy. Good thing is that neg only shows for one year in detailed ratings. So unless someone looks through your feeback from over a year ago they will not see it. It kind of pissed me off because I had an 8 year or so flawless feedback back when it happened a few years back.

 

Nowadays feedback doesnt mean what it use to. We all know scammers use it against us.

[bennybingo]

Unfortunately, Ebay will side with the buyer.

 

As I mentioned earlier, for protection, see post #2:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/206503-what-can-a-seller-do-to-protect-themselves-on-ebay/#entry2658522

[Hyper_Eye]

He sent me two pictures that are definitely of the unit I sent him. But they don't show the damage! He then immediately opened a case with eBay. They have withdrawn and are holding the amount from my Paypal account. He claimed I am not doing anything to resolve the problem so "I will!" He just sent the first message last night. He has not provided adequate time to resolve the issue. He is not cooperating by sending a picture that shows the damage is on the unit I sent. I replied and asked for an image that looks like the one above. I took another picture that shows both the back and the serial number and asked for one that looks like that. I'll see if he responds.

[oldjd]

How was the console packed?Bubble wrap of some kind or newspapers?Was it tight in the box or loose enough for movement?

I learned years ago that there will always be those "few" who want to make a deal even better by submitting false claims.Some

you can handle others not so easily.They are the ones who own the statement"The squeaky wheel gets the grease".Basically meaning

if they bitch and scream long enough they will be appeased.Sometimes throwing a few bucks at them takes care of it,but other times

they continue to wail until your so worn out,you give up

One thing I did start doing a few years ago,was marking the consoles I sold in a spot that only I knew of.When someone would make a claim of broken case etc,I simply said ,sorry for the problem,send it back and after I verify that this is indeed the one I sent,I will issue

a refund.And it works.because Ive never had one go any furthur ,after I have told them that

It could probably be done with small stuff as well,marking it with a pen that only shows with a black light

The point is ,you now understand that no matter how hard you try,there will ALWAYS be some entity that wants to try and take

advantange.Its not only a case of buyer beware these days its also a case of seller beware

[RickR]

 

One thing I did start doing a few years ago,was marking the consoles I sold in a spot that only I knew of.When someone would make a claim of broken case etc,I simply said ,sorry for the problem,send it back and after I verify that this is indeed the one I sent,I will issue

a refund.And it works.because Ive never had one go any furthur ,after I have told them that

 

Great idea here. I'm going to start doing this. Thanks.

[Hyper_Eye]

This was very well packaged. The console itself was wrapped in bubble wrap. The cartridges and accessories were tightly packed and the box was filled with shipping popcorn. The box was also lined with packing paper. It simply couldn't have been packed better. Considering the immediately accusatory tone and how quickly this seller filed a claim after I asked for pictures as well as him sending pictures that are either a close up of the claimed damage or that don't include the damage I am absolutely convinced this is an attempt to scam me. When I consider the description of the unit compared to his claim that he expected "the best one" based on my description that tells me this was likely planned. He found an auction that didn't show a picture of the back of the unit and he bid with the intention of pulling this scam. Man this is incredibly frustrating.

 

In contrast I sold a very similar Atari 2600 lot on the same night: eBay Auction -- Item Number: 230891485618

 

The buyer has left positive feedback and I have left him positive feedback in return.

 

A few months ago I purchased an Atari Jaguar Air Cars. It was the reprint so it comes in a pretty thick case. The case was busted up on the back. Inside parts of the case were floating around. I didn't accuse the seller of sending me a broken item. I informed them that the item was damaged and I provided pictures of the damage. I expressed understanding and a willingness to come to an acceptable resolution in my dialog with him. He offered a partial refund to compensate me for the loss of value and I considered the amount offered to be appropriately compensatory when the value of the damaged item was considered. I agreed to the partial refund and we then exchanged positive feedback. That is how something like this should be dealt with. Is it possible that the seller of this item sent it knowing it was damaged? Of course that is possible but I would like to start with the assumption that he is an honest guy and proceed from there.

[icemanxp300]

First thing you do now is contact ebay and let them know the situation. Now since he has filed a claim if he refuses to submit the appropriate pics he will lose this dispute I believe. I would also tell ebay you will gladly send a replacement system if this system does indeed turn out to be the one you sent. Let them know he is not complying well. let them you feel he is trying to scam you and you just wish to verify the system you sent is broken and he is not trying to scam you.

[Blazing Lazers]

Photograph everything beforehand, including the packaging and any serial numbers. Do not inform the buyer of this unless necessary.

Use tracking and delivery confirmation whenever feasible.

Make it clear in your auction listing that you do not offer refunds, but always be prepared to do so anyways if necessary.

Provide detailed photographs in the listing itself.

Handle all communications directly through Ebay's messaging, but also have duplicate copies sent to your associated email accounts for longer term record keeping.

Do not cheap out on shipping, and if offering free shipping make it clear in the listing that the price is inclusive of that. Too many buyers do not seem to realize that.

Forbid buyers with low feedbacks, ect. Also, try to avoid foreign buyers from English-speaking countries, just so that none can claim miscommunications because of different languages.

Offer extensive extra shipping options, even at high prices. That way, it is the buyers fault for deciding to skimp on shipping costs, not yours.

Use Google street View to get a look at just where your packages are being sent to- you'd be surprised just how many scummy buyers can be weeded out with this method. You wouldn't sell to someone living in or near a crackhouse, would you?

[akator]

My solution to eBay sales: photograph everything and pay for postal insurance. My sales are photographed tested and working; items packed in their retail boxes; details of intact retail boxes; retail boxes packed into shipping boxes; and shipping box sealed with buyer's address.

 

If buyers try to claim items were improperly packed or not as described, I reply using the eBay mail system with my photos. It's amazing how many people drop the issue when they realize they are not going to scam me so easily.

 

If the buyer persists, I can't prove they aren't scamming me but I can prove anything wrong with the item wasn't my fault and something happened during shipment. I refund the money to the buyer and submit a postal insurance claim with my supporting photos.

 

No photos and it's your word against theirs. No postal insurance and you'll loose 100% when eBay sides with the buyer.

 

On a tangent, as a buyer I take precautions as well. Any box that arrives in questionable condition is photographed before I open it. Poor packing is photographed before I go further. Items not as described are photographed before testing. Etc., you get the idea. Also, I no longer pay sellers with "gifts" through PayPal because if the seller doesn't come through, you've got no way to pursue it at all if you've paid by "gift."

Edited December 16, 2012 by akator

[Hyper_Eye]

I've never paid by gift. I also agree that you have to take precautions as a buyer just as much as you do as a seller. I buy a lot on eBay. Still the deck is stacked in favor of the buyer. The buyer protection program almost automatically sides in favor of the buyer. The wording of the case that was opened is almost spelled out as if my only two choices are to willingly agree to provide a complete refund to the buyer or eBay will do it and my account will be penalized.

 

I did file a complaint against the buyer the moment I received the first message because it already looked pretty obvious to me what was about to happen. I wanted the issue to be on record with eBay as quickly as possible.

 

They buyer has not responded since I requested the pictures that show both the serial number and the damage. I suppose they are either going to just wait for the case to be awarded to them, are carefully photo shopping some pictures, or they are swapping parts to try and get the pictures I requested. I suppose time will tell. I went to a local classic gaming store that I frequent and they told me to order tamper proof stickers and apply them to units. They said they make sure the stickers are visible in their auction pictures. That way you can tell if someone has tried to open the unit as it will say "VOID" but they are easily removable with a little goo-gone.

[Hyper_Eye]

Here is a pretty good write-up on "return fraud": http://reviews.ebay.com/New-buyer-related-scam-effecting-sellers-Return-Fraud?ugid=10000000004227183

[mike99mccarthy]

Does the buyer geograpically live far from you? go to his fucking house

[icemanxp300]

Does the buyer geograpically live far from you? go to his fucking house

 

Or have one of us go to his house! What state?

[Hyper_Eye]

Still no response from the seller since I requested those specific pictures. He did escalate the case for a decision today anyway. The case was in a state of "Waiting for buyer to respond". Hopefully the person that reviews this sees it for what it clearly is. If not I will be penalized for allowing it to be decided by eBay instead of giving in and issuing the refund myself. If that happens then so be it. After this experience I'm not chomping at the bit to list more items.