donjn Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Am I to assume that Commodore verisons are always better than Atari? I know that Atari has a better color palette but Commodore has better sound and overall graphics. I am putting together Commodore 128 and Atari 800XL systems with SD solutions and I am a bit confused. I need a real pro here: Ultima Series: Obviously Commodore. Music is amazing. But what about games like these: Bruce Lee Star League Baseball Lords of Conquest Realm of Impossibility Archon and Archon 2 M.U.L.E. ( I heard this is better on the Atari) I also notice some awesome RPGs are not even available on the Atari 800. Should I just use my Atari for mostly "arcade" like games? You know, Ms Pac Man, Pitfall 2, etc, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojay1997 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Am I to assume that Commodore verisons are always better than Atari? I know that Atari has a better color palette but Commodore has better sound and overall graphics. I am putting together Commodore 128 and Atari 800XL systems with SD solutions and I am a bit confused. I need a real pro here: Ultima Series: Obviously Commodore. Music is amazing. But what about games like these: Bruce Lee Star League Baseball Lords of Conquest Realm of Impossibility Archon and Archon 2 M.U.L.E. ( I heard this is better on the Atari) I also notice some awesome RPGs are not even available on the Atari 800. Should I just use my Atari for mostly "arcade" like games? You know, Ms Pac Man, Pitfall 2, etc, etc... Not at all. There are a number of games where the Atari version was the original version and in many cases the better version. MULE is a good example since you can use all four controller ports and Seven Cities of Gold has additional features over the various port versions. Similarly, the Lucasarts games like Ballblazer and Koronis Rift were also better graphically and speedwise on the Atari. Personally, I tend to collect games in their original version, so for the Ultimas, I collect on the Apple II while for many early EA album style games, the Atari version was the original. The major commercial releases for the Atari 8 bits died out long before the C64 did, so you're correct that for many mid to late 80s RPGs and games in general, the Commodore or the Apple II or even DOS are the only versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Similarly, the Lucasarts games like Ballblazer and Koronis Rift were also better graphically and speedwise on the Atari. This is only true of the earlier games if memory serves, the later ones are apparently faster on the C64. The "short version" is that anything designed for the A8 will usually tend to be better on it, Dropzone or Boulder Dash are both built around the hardware for example and the C64 version, whilst still good, struggles to keep up. Similarly, anything written around the C64 hardware and converted to the A8 will probably have caused the devs problems, either because it relied on the C64's horizontal scroll resolution (like Red Max or Action Biker for example, the difference in scroll res is very noticeable when the games are moving slowly) or the sprites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donjn Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 My issue is this. I purchased a C128 with Ultimate II so I am beginning to wonder if I even need to spend more money on an SD solution for Atari and an Atari 800XL if the Commodore games make me happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickR Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The games are pretty similar, but it is the slow load times on C64 that kill the experience for me. I like the Atari computers because they are more polished. Put a disk in, turn the computer on, and it loads automatically and quickly. On the C64, you gotta do the LOAD "*",8,1 wait a few seconds, maybe have to type RUN, then wait forever. Then when the game comes up, you might have to switch joystick ports because some games use port 1, others port 2. Also SIO devices (SIO2PC, SIO2SD) are pretty cheap and work very nicely. It seems like the C64 doesn't have any similarly priced and easy to use disk image solutions. I'm sure you know all this. If you are happy with what you have, I say stick with it. If the slow load times bother you, look into an Atari or just use a C64 emulator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastRobPlus Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I can’t imagine that you’d need an Atari if you like the C64 version of the games. The differences between versions were usually pretty insignificant. Very early games could favor the Atari if for no other reason than there was no C64 version planned during development, so the game was built around Atari-specific characteristics. Archon for example was supposed to be impressive because it featured a playing board that gradually lightened and darkened over time – a trick possible because Atari had so many grayscales. When it became a hit, it was ported to other systems that could not replicate the trick, so one of the coolest features of Archon was lost. I think problems like this helped the games industry mature, and the larger companies like Activision, Sierra and EA began to design games with multiple platform in mind at the outset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 One thing that a lot of people don't seem to notice or care about (that absolutely bugs the hell out of me) is the fact that most or a lot of A8 games use the generic, small, built-in ASCII characters to display scores, instructions, titles?, etc. On top of that, they'll then add a colored rectangle or box around said genericism - guessing because they were trying to "dress" them up? haha I'm sure it was done to conserve memory, but this practice has always seemed extremely cheap to me. C64 versions to a lot of games seemed more arcade-like for that reason alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The games are pretty similar, but it is the slow load times on C64 that kill the experience for me. I like the Atari computers because they are more polished. Put a disk in, turn the computer on, and it loads automatically and quickly. On the C64, you gotta do the LOAD "*",8,1 wait a few seconds, maybe have to type RUN, then wait forever. Then when the game comes up, you might have to switch joystick ports because some games use port 1, others port 2. Also SIO devices (SIO2PC, SIO2SD) are pretty cheap and work very nicely. It seems like the C64 doesn't have any similarly priced and easy to use disk image solutions. I'm sure you know all this. If you are happy with what you have, I say stick with it. If the slow load times bother you, look into an Atari or just use a C64 emulator. Most of that is easily rectified by JiffyDOS. Not knowing which joystick it is expecting me to use has been an annoyance to me for 30 years though! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Not knowing which joystick it is expecting me to use has been an annoyance to me for 30 years though! Yeah, what's up with that? Even companies couldn't get with the program (Atarisoft comes to mind), there's so much inconsistency. Bastards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt_Woloch Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I'll simply list some here... Ironically, many Atarisoft games for the C-64 are better graphically than their A8 counterparts, including Donkey Kong, Mario Bros. and Ms. Pac-Man, where on the C-64 the ghosts have blue eyes and never flicker. An exception would be Pac-Man because it relies on the A8 codebase, and nothing much was done to improve it using the C-64 hardware specifics. Parker Brothers' Q*bert is also better on the C-64 (near arcade-perfect graphics). And, as already mentioned, many games originally designed for the C-64 suffered in the A8 version, including Ghostbusters, Dallas Quest and Summer Games. In Summer Games, they went from 16-color backgrounds to 4-color ones. Ballblazer is actually faster on the C-64 because they did it in text mode, while they used hi-res mode on the A8. But to make up for that, the 3D is slightly incorrect in the C-64 version. Pole Position got a better A8 version than the C-64 has. The C-64 one is pretty fast and smooth, but the 3D is calculated somewhat wrong and looks better on the A8. For Shamus, the A8 clearly has the best version, since it was originally designed on the A8. Here the C-64 version is less colorful and much more frustrating to play, even showing some nasty bugs. Galaxian has got a better A8 version as well, which is surprisingly colorful given the system limitations. On the C-64 they went with a 4-color hi-res display and software sprites, making the game slow and choppy. Space Invaders has got a pretty good C-64 clone called "Avenger" (the version with the score on the side) which looks and plays pretty much arcade-perfect. Atari, instead, chose to heavily alter their version compared to the arcade. On the other hand, Missile Command plays much better on the A8 since the C-64 version was done by Interceptor Software and is slow as hell. WIth Burger Time, there was only the C-64 version by Interceptor which leaves out many game elements, while the A8 had no version I know of. However, it now has Beef Drop which, as far as I know, hasn't been ported to the C-64, and is much better and truer to the arcade than any attempt on the C-64. There is a newer version for the C-64 as well called Burger Time 1997 which is basically much better than Interceptor's attempt, but it uses the patterns from the Intellivision instead of the arcade version. So much for some games which I know both versions of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Not knowing which joystick it is expecting me to use has been an annoyance to me for 30 years though! Is there some type of adapter / switcher that would allow to switch the inputs on the fly instead of plugging / unplugging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Is there some type of adapter / switcher that would allow to switch the inputs on the fly instead of plugging / unplugging? Assuming you're using the same joystick in each port, you don't have to unplug anything, you just have to grab the other stick. Invariably for me, the one I need is the one that just dropped on the floor If you keep 2 different types of controller/joystick plugged in, or have a preference for a specific one, then I guess that could be an issue. I just use 2 regular CX-40's though. This is one way the Vic-20 is superior to the C64 too... no joystick confusion!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 It seems like the C64 doesn't have any similarly priced and easy to use disk image solutions. The 1541U2 is incredibly easy to use, but it isn't similarly priced to the SIO2SD because it does a lot more than emulate a disk drive; it's basically the equivalent an SIO2SD, TurboFreezerXL, MaxFlash and sixteen Ultimate 1Mb upgrades (with a few other bits and bobs) rolled into a single cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I already mentioned this to the OP in a PM, but I think the main reason to have an 800XL in addition to a C64 is for the great A8 homebrew games. Of course, you could play those in emulation, but for those of us who like to play on real hardware (though not necessarily with real floppy drives), an A8 setup is worth having. I've said it a million times already, but the 1541-Ultimate-II has been my best overall retrogaming purchase. Despite the higher cost, IMO it's one of the most brilliant pieces of hardware for use with retro computers ever made. Worth every last penny. Love my A8 SIO2SD too though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickR Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The 1541U2 is incredibly easy to use, but it isn't similarly priced to the SIO2SD because it does a lot more than emulate a disk drive; it's basically the equivalent an SIO2SD, TurboFreezerXL, MaxFlash and sixteen Ultimate 1Mb upgrades (with a few other bits and bobs) rolled into a single cartridge. Is the 1541U2 only available from Germany? I'm interested now in getting one, but was wondering if there was a US source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Is the 1541U2 only available from Germany? I'm interested now in getting one, but was wondering if there was a US source. None that i'm aware of no, only the 1541U2's developer Gideon manufactures the units. Be aware that there's usually a delay (sometimes a month or two) between ordering and the hardware shipping because it's a one person operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yell0w_lantern Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 My issue is this. I purchased a C128 with Ultimate II so I am beginning to wonder if I even need to spend more money on an SD solution for Atari and an Atari 800XL if the Commodore games make me happy? One word, "Crossbow". That's the best reason I have for an A8, as it can use a light gun (on a CRT screen, of course) unlike the C64 version. Commodore and Atari 8 bits are fairly similar but have their idiosyncrasies. Both are wonderful game machines but if you're perfectly happy with one then stick with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanrunomad Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Get an Apple II with an accelerator and mockingboard and boom, it beats both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarian63 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Get an Apple II with an accelerator and mockingboard and boom, it beats both. without add on's it's not even cose, apple gaming is weak,compared to c64 ad atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) by 1985 Apple ][ already had more than 16,000 titles; EG May 1985: Edited January 27, 2013 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) C64 just started to gain popularity in late 83: Edited January 27, 2013 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Get an Apple II with an accelerator and mockingboard and boom, it beats both. True, both games that support the Mockingboard are great.. ;-) (OK, there's more than 2, but not many..) That's why you want multiple systems. Some games are better on some systems, and its not always about technical ability. I prefer playing the Ultima games on the Apple II. Even tho other systems might have better graphics and/or sound on some versions. desiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanrunomad Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 True, both games that support the Mockingboard are great.. ;-) (OK, there's more than 2, but not many..) That's why you want multiple systems. Some games are better on some systems, and its not always about technical ability. I prefer playing the Ultima games on the Apple II. Even tho other systems might have better graphics and/or sound on some versions. desiv I was only teasing. Later games really showcased the apples ability like Karateka or even double hi-res games requiring acceleration like Rampage and Rad Warrior, but even so, my vote for greatest 8-bit gaming computer is the c64. For greatest 8-bit professional computer not sold through Toys-R-Us, Apple II. But just for completeness sake, this is a list of the titles which support Mockingboard: -Ultima III -Ultima IV -Ultima V -Music Construction Set -SKyfox -Willy's Byte -Thunderbombs -Lancaster -Under Fire -GuitarMaster -Music Star -GI-Joe -BerZap -Maze Craze -Tactical Armor Command -Bank Street Music Writer -One on One -Night Flight -Rescue Raiders (v1.3) -Spy Strikes Back -Zaxxon -Pitfall II -Crime Wave -Adventure Construction Set -Crypt of Medea -Airsim-3 -Apple Cider Spider -Auto Gyro -Bouncing Kamungas -Broadside -Clarinet Master -Flute Master -Lady Tut -Maze Craze -Saxophone Master -Silent Service -Singing Master -Trumpet Master -Window -ZooKeeper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) I was only teasing. Me too... Later games really showcased the apples ability like Karateka .... But just for completeness sake, this is a list of the titles which support Mockingboard: Karateka is one of my all time favorite (and Prince of Persia) Apple II games.. As for that list.. Wow.. That's more than I remember/thought... Looks like I have to fire up ADTPro and my IIe again for some testing.. desiv Edited January 27, 2013 by desiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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