Retron 4 (console for snes\nes\genny etc)

[+FujiSkunk]

 

Well, that's good. This isn't software with weird licensing or EULAs involved. It's making a personal backup of a ROM on a chip that you own. I think we've both made our points at this point

 

I feel the need to emphasize goldenegg's point: Don't believe you have the right to back up your games, or any media, just because you think you should. The rules and laws governing digital duplication and back-ups are comple, and getting more so with each passing year. In fact, some rules you think would cover all media are actually given special exceptions for games. For example, maybe you're familiar with first sale doctrine. The general interpretation of first sale doctrine is that once you buy a copy of some piece of media, it is your right to redistribute that particular copy as you see fit. You buy a music CD, you can later sell that CD. You buy a book, you can loan that book to a friend. Most people assume first sale doctrine applies to physical copies of media, but not necessarily digital copies. The interesting thing is, generally speaking, first sale doctrine actually does apply to digital copies of media, at least for copies that were "sold". This is one reason why you're hearing less and less about software and other digital media being "sold." Instead of "selling" their digital wares, companies are "licensing" them. Legally speaking, customers of those wares are not buying copies, they're buying licenses to use those copies. The copies provided with those licenses are, again legally speaking, still the property of the company, and so first sale doctrine does not apply.

 

And even that is a gross oversimplification of the joys of "buying" and "licensing" software, including games. Obviously the rules for modern games not attached to physical media don't necessarily apply to older games on cartridges and discs, but as companies and their lobbyists continue to manipulate copyright law and see to it that those manipulations apply retroactively to existing works, you can't necessary assume the new rules don't apply, either.

 

In summary, don't believe something is correct just because you feel it should be correct. Do your homework.

[+Gemintronic]

 

I feel the need to emphasize goldenegg's point: Don't believe you have the right to back up your games, or any media, just because you think you should. The rules and laws governing digital duplication and back-ups are comple, and getting more so with each passing year. In fact, some rules you think would cover all media are actually given special exceptions for games. For example, maybe you're familiar with first sale doctrine. The general interpretation of first sale doctrine is that once you buy a copy of some piece of media, it is your right to redistribute that particular copy as you see fit. You buy a music CD, you can later sell that CD. You buy a book, you can loan that book to a friend. Most people assume first sale doctrine applies to physical copies of media, but not necessarily digital copies. The interesting thing is, generally speaking, first sale doctrine actually does apply to digital copies of media, at least for copies that were "sold". This is one reason why you're hearing less and less about software and other digital media being "sold." Instead of "selling" their digital wares, companies are "licensing" them. Legally speaking, customers of those wares are not buying copies, they're buying licenses to use those copies, and the copies are, again legally speaking, still the property of the company.

 

And even that is a gross oversimplification of the joys of "buying" and "licensing" software, including games. Obviously the rules for modern games not attached to physical media don't necessarily apply to older games on cartridges and discs, but as companies continue to manipulate copyright law and see to it that those manipulations apply retroactively to existing works, you can't necessary assume the new rules don't apply, either.

 

In summary, don't believe something is correct just because you feel it should be correct. Do your homework.

 

You two are asserting I'm wrong without citing specific examples for this specific situation. It's not productive anymore until that happens.

 

I was willing to let it go as a difference of opinion, guys. Don't assert I'm wrong without backing it up.

[+FujiSkunk]

I did not assert you're wrong. I did assert, as goldenegg did, that this is not a matter of "opinion." The rules are the rules. It's up to you to make sure you are following them or at least are prepared for the consequences if you're not.

 

Now, since it seems you'd rather someone else do your homework for you, I did some Googling. Here's one write-up on what copyright law has to say about copies of video game software that you own:

 

 

 

U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet or make such copy available to other people for their use. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. The law clearly does NOT provide any right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.

 

So, generally speaking, if you own that cartridge and you make a back-up, you're within your legal rights as long as you don't do anything with that back-up beyond keeping it as a back-up. So far so good. Of course that hasn't stopped some companies, Nintendo and Sony especially, from trying to squash any and all ways a customer could make legitimate back-ups for themselves. Interestingly, Nintendo does at least admit U.S. copyright law allows customers to back-up their own games, even if Nintendo is still bound and determined to keep people from being able to do so.

 

And that's on top of all the mysteries of "selling" vs. "licensing" modern games (if you don't think games have EULA's, try downloading DLC for the XBox 360 or XBONE some time) and what your rights are when you don't actually "own" that bit of software you paid for.

 

So, that old NES cartridge you have your own duplicator for? Probably not a problem. That new DS cartridge you bought last week? Might be a problem. That digital PS4 game you downloaded yesterday? Forget about it.

 

But don't take my advice. Do your homework.

[+Gemintronic]

I did not assert you're wrong. I did assert, as goldenegg did, that this is not a matter of "opinion." The rules are the rules. It's up to you to make sure you are following them or at least are prepared for the consequences if you're not.

 

Now, since it seems you'd rather someone else do your homework for you, I did some Googling. Here's one write-up on what copyright law has to say about copies of video game software that you own:

 

 

 

 

So, generally speaking, if you own that cartridge and you make a back-up, you're within your legal rights as long as you don't do anything with that back-up beyond keeping it as a back-up. So far so good. Of course that hasn't stopped some companies, Nintendo and Sony especially, from trying to squash any and all ways a customer could make legitimate back-ups for themselves. Interestingly, Nintendo does at least admit U.S. copyright law allows customers to back-up their own games, even if Nintendo is still bound and determined to keep people from being able to do so.

 

And that's on top of all the mysteries of "selling" vs. "licensing" modern games (if you don't think games have EULA's, try downloading DLC for the XBox 360 or XBONE some time) and what your rights are when you don't actually "own" that bit of software you paid for.

 

So, that old NES cartridge you have your own duplicator for? Probably not a problem. That new DS cartridge you bought last week? Might be a problem. That digital PS4 game you downloaded yesterday? Forget about it.

 

But don't take my advice. Do your homework.

 

Already did my homework. Already confident in my statement. I can copy my copy of Star Wars on my VCR for my use in the privacy of my own home. Same deal with my cartridges which I back up using my tools for my own personal use in my home. Your provided "homework" reinforces my statement. Case closed gentleman. Please.

 

UPDATE: ..and by case closed I mean we three should stop debating it in this topic. I personally no longer find it enjoyable or productive to further this topic.

[Zap!]

Agreed. The world was a much better place when we had Napster, WinMX (my personal favorite), Kazaa, Limewire, and Frostwire. We're slowly losing freedom.

[dashv]

Well, that's good. This isn't software with weird licensing or EULAs involved. It's making a personal backup of a ROM on a chip that you own. I think we've both made our points at this point

I know you wanted to end the topic. But I found what you were asking for. An actual link with information directly applicable to the topic.

 

Here is the stance of Nintendo's lawyers with the legal document references to back it up.

 

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

 

From that page:

Can I Download a Nintendo ROM from the Internet if I Already Own the Authentic Game?

 

There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet.

 

Are Game Copying Devices Illegal?

 

Yes. Game copiers enable users to illegally copy video game software onto floppy disks, writeable compact disks or the hard drive of a personal computer. They enable the user to make, play and distribute illegal copies of video game software which violates Nintendo's copyrights and trademarks. These devices also allow for the uploading and downloading of ROMs to and from the Internet. Based upon the functions of these devices, they are illegal.

 

 

Whether I agree or disagree with their interpretation of the law they certainly have more money than I do to discuss the those "disagreements" in a court of law.

Edited June 5, 2014 by dashv

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'd say the best bet is to hit up StoneAgeGamer. The pre-orders price got bumped up by about $40 bucks. Someone's bound to ask for a refund.

I was one of them sadly. I really don't feel like being the guinea pig anymore.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Are Game Copying Devices Illegal?

 

Yes. Game copiers enable users to illegally copy video game software onto floppy disks, writeable compact disks or the hard drive of a personal computer. They enable the user to make, play and distribute illegal copies of video game software which violates Nintendo's copyrights and trademarks. These devices also allow for the uploading and downloading of ROMs to and from the Internet. Based upon the functions of these devices, they are illegal.

 

 

 

Whether I agree or disagree with their interpretation of the law they certainly have more money than I do to discuss the those "disagreements" in a court of law.

Nintendo said it themselves. Use of the copy devices is only illegal when the user decides to distribute the data.

[Atariboy]

Nintendo said it themselves. Use of the copy devices is only illegal when the user decides to distribute the data.

I can just about guarantee that Nintendo never said such a thing. Here are some such results that contradict what you're claiming Nintendo has said.

 

http://www.nintendo.com.au/legal#Game

 

http://games-beta.slashdot.org/story/07/10/23/024223/nintendo-cracks-down-on-copying-devices

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ds-and-wii-devices-that-enable-piracy-may-actually-be-legal-says-eu-court/1100-6417311/

 

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#copy_illegal

Edited June 5, 2014 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

And those "devices" mentioned were for Wii/DS. I'm pretty sure Ninty doesn't care what people do with their 25+ year old game carts.

[dashv]

And those "devices" mentioned were for Wii/DS. I'm pretty sure Ninty doesn't care what people do with their 25+ year old game carts.

From the same link I posted:

 

People Making Nintendo Emulators and Nintendo ROMs are Helping Publishers by Making Old Games Available that are No Longer Being Sold by the Copyright Owner. This Does Not Hurt Anyone and Allows Gamers to Play Old Favorites. What's the Problem?

 

The problem is that it's illegal. Copyrights and trademarks of games are corporate assets. If these vintage titles are available far and wide, it undermines the value of this intellectual property and adversely affects the right owner. In addition, the assumption that the games involved are vintage or nostalgia games is incorrect. Nintendo is famous for bringing back to life its popular characters for its newer systems, for example, Mario and Donkey Kong have enjoyed their adventures on all Nintendo platforms, going from coin-op machines to our latest hardware platforms. As a copyright owner, and creator of such famous characters, only Nintendo has the right to benefit from such valuable assets.

Edited June 5, 2014 by dashv

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think you're missing my point. I understand that spreading ROMs online is illegal.

 

Making a personal backup copy of a game you own isn't illegal provided you to not "share" the copy. Also you are required to destroy or delete the backup copy if you sell the original.

 

Backup devices like the Retrode aren't inherently illegal. Emulators are also perfectly legal, contrary to what Nintendo says, provided you only use them to play roms you obtained legally (PD, homebrews, or personal backups of games you own).

 

Because Retron5 is an emulator that requires the original cartridge to work, it does not infringe on anyone's copyright.

[DaytonaUSA]

SO.. how about that Retron 5....

[dashv]

Sound is amazing. Graphics look good. Controller is meh, compatibility is very high (but not perfect). 98% with my sample set.

 

Software has some bugs.

 

Some people have theirs already. Most people are still waiting for consoles.

 

Saturday is technically the release date.

 

A few pages back is a link to my full review and compatibility list.

Edited June 5, 2014 by dashv

[Atariboy]

I think you're missing my point.

The point is that Nintendo would never make a statement like you claimed they had.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Atariboy

[Flojomojo]

Maybe you folks would like to make a new thread about copyright somewhere else? It's not particularly relevant to the capabilities of the Retron 5.

 

Also, end user licensing agreements are not law, and it's extremely unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for backing up their own 25yo ROM cartridges, especially if they kept the files to themselves for personal use. While Nintendo has lawyerly powers I wouldn't want to mess with, I think they'd have an uphill road proving damages in such a case, considering there are near-infinite copies of their entire software catalog on websites all over the world.

 

It tickles the mind of 1990 me to think that the entire software library of the NES, SNES, and Genesis can fit on a little flash drive. GBA is only a little more unwieldy because the files are significantly larger and there are so very many of them.

[+FujiSkunk]

I can just about guarantee that Nintendo never said such a thing.

 

 

Actually, they did... between the lines. From the link that both I and dashv posted:

 

 

 

The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic.

 

So even Nintendo admits... begrudgingly... that the owner of an authentic game has the legal right to make an archival copy of that game (as long as there isn't any licensing mumbo-jumbo that works to take that right away, and for old NES cartridges there isn't).

 

At the same time and in the same article, however, Nintendo basically states they will do everything they can to prevent you from exercising that right. As dashv already quoted...

 

 

 

Are Game Copying Devices Illegal?

 

Yes.

 

I'm sure those guys are a lot of fun at LAN parties.

 

 

Maybe you folks would like to make a new thread about copyright somewhere else? It's not particularly relevant to the capabilities of the Retron 5.

 

Actually, it is. Here we have a system that creates a full, digital copy of a cartridge every time the system is turned on, and then runs that copy through an emulator. Given Nintendo's stated attitudes about emulators and cartridge copiers, they could try to declare such a system illegal. Hyperkin of course could counter that the system does not save its copy to permanent media and cannot create the copy in the first place without the original cartridge present, and of course could also counter that even if the system was capable of saving copies to permanent media, we have established that copyright law gives cartridge owners the right to make such copies. As we've already seen, however, Nintendo isn't too willing to listen to such arguments, even after admitting owners do have that right. There is a good possibility such debates will go public and maybe even end up in a court room, especially if a hack or firmware update gives the Retron 5 the ability to dump cartridges to permanent media.

[+Gemintronic]

Yep. I forgot the golden rule: he who has the gold rules!

 

Lest we forget Bleem!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleem!

 

Basically, their product (playstation emulator) broke no law but the lawsuits destroyed them.

 

So, I can understand the reluctance to fully utilize the emulation/dumping aspect in Retron 4. Thanks to goldenegg and FujiSkunk

[NinjaWarrior]

I still will get the Super Retro Trio

 

I don't know where I saw this about, But I think keep on dumping ROM's on the Retron 5 will kill the cart?

 

Was it on this thread or somewhere else, About dumping cart

[+Gemintronic]

I still will get the Super Retro Trio

 

I don't know where I saw this about, But I think keep on dumping ROM's on the Retron 5 will kill the cart?

 

Was it on this thread or somewhere else, About dumping cart

 

Reading bits from a cart is a non-issue. Wear and tear from inserting and ejecting the cart is a natural consequence of use. That's why I purchase my games and then back them up. No messy livingroom. No further wear from use.

[goldenegg]

Does anyone here happen to know where to download the cheat files for the Retron 5? I can't find them anywhere on the Hyperkin site and Hyperkin haven't responded to my question either via e-mail or on FB. I want to start messing around with cheats, including manually editing the file and adding my own.

 

 

 

Reading bits from a cart is a non-issue. Wear and tear from inserting and ejecting the cart is a natural consequence of use. That's why I purchase my games and then back them up. No messy livingroom. No further wear from use.

 

I'm waiting for the first persona to post that they cracked the top of their Retron 5, due to the death grip is has on SNES carts. Honestly, it's a little scary taking carts out of the system.

[+Gemintronic]

Does anyone here happen to know where to download the cheat files for the Retron 5? I can't find them anywhere on the Hyperkin site and Hyperkin haven't responded to my question either via e-mail or on FB. I want to start messing around with cheats, including manually editing the file and adding my own.

 

 

 

I'm waiting for the first persona to post that they cracked the top of their Retron 5, due to the death grip is has on SNES carts. Honestly, it's a little scary taking carts out of the system.

 

If it were a NOAC/GOAC then a work-around would be to stick a game genie on and leave it there. Alas, I betcha such devices don't work.

 

UPDATE: I bet one of these might work, though http://www.amazon.com/Super-Nintendo-Saver-Nakitek-Entertainment-S/dp/B0002U28TY

[NinjaWarrior]

I bet the Game Genies won't work anyways

[goldenegg]

I bet the Game Genies won't work anyways

 

That's correct. You'll actually get the Game Genie menu, but it just loops back to itself rather than loading the game.

[DaytonaUSA]

 

That's correct. You'll actually get the Game Genie menu, but it just loops back to itself rather than loading the game.

 

 

Not a deal breaker, but that does kinda suck. I'd rather use a Game Genie than having to import cheats via SD card from their site.