Any reason why 'multi button' joysticks weren't supported on home computers

[ledzep]

As already mentioned before: a two-axis analog (thumb)stick with up to five buttons (Vectrex style, or flight stick style, e.g.) is a no-brainer on the A8, and more buttons are entirely possible, so even a Sega Saturn Analog Controller lookalike would have been possible.

 

They just didn't have the proper ideas back then.

 

Wow, that's a cool idea. Has no one done that yet? I think it would be a great idea for a homebrewist to come up with an analog joystick game for the Atari computers (and/or the 2600) that was coded as you say, using the POTs inputs and the other lines for the buttons along with offering the joystick to go along with it. George at Fury Unlimited (speaking of the Vectrex) has done that a couple times in the past though I think that offer is gone now. I'd pay a good amount of money to get a cool analog stick game and the controller (and a box and manual, of course), that stick could then be used for other games. I would think coding for that would be similar to the Vectrex and Atari 5200 joysticks, meaning that the inputs could be read as variable or as simple static values in order to mimic 8-way joysticks. Could something like that be done?

[TMR]

Do you recall another stick of the same era TMR - it was a bit like the infamous Nintendo 'Power Glove' in that I THINK it clipped on to you wrist somehow and the joystick part was held directly in your hand.without having to rest it against everything.

 

i vaguely remember something like that but, if it's the one i'm thinking of, it was pretty lousy to actually use; i think it relied on a similar design to those dirt cheap "clones" of the Wiimote that shipped with fake Wii consoles so there was just a ball bearing in a tube and, as you tilted left or right, it completed circuits at the ends?

[morelenmir]

Ahh... That would make sense! I'm glad I got the ZipStick now!

[TMR]

Wow, that's a cool idea. Has no one done that yet? I think it would be a great idea for a homebrewist to come up with an analog joystick game for the Atari computers (and/or the 2600) that was coded as you say, using the POTs inputs and the other lines for the buttons along with offering the joystick to go along with it.

 

The problem is making the game play well with two different control schemes; try playing something with a Playstation Dualshock connected to a PC with and without the analog thumbstick and there's a noticeable difference between how the controls feel and that's not even properly processing the analog data. Tuning a game so one of these control schemes or a full-blown analog system doesn't disadvantage the player in some way is pretty tricky and there's no easy way for those of us cross assembling to emulators to even test the code so the process of implementing the controls gets harder too.

 

The Dualshock thumbstick or perhaps a Wii Nunchuck could be used as a cheap and cheerful analogue stick for the A8 if the output was decoded with a microcontroller though... there's already converters out there for the former to DB9 but i'm fairly sure they only deal with digital data. Tell you what, if someone builds an easy to produce interface that people'll buy for the Nunchuck and gives me a couple of freebies, i'll write a small game that utilises it. =-)

[carmel_andrews]

One idea could be some sort of 'stella adapter' type thing for the A8 that modifies reading the j/s and ports so that you can play games using multi button joysticks or A8 compatible joypads (like the sega one and the ones you could buy for the amoeba)

 

The idea being is that you have two programs running inside the stella adapter, the first program deals with reading the j/s and ports the second program deals with modifying running programs so you can use 2 buttons, one idea is that the program could be written that programs the additional button (or buttons) appropriate to the game your playing

 

For example in Defender (the Arcade port) you could program the second button to act as the smartbomb (space bar) or hyperspace (any other key) or you could add a built in 'hardware pause' feature, just like you have in altirra and a800winplus...programmed into the second button

[TMR]

One idea could be some sort of 'stella adapter' type thing for the A8 that modifies reading the j/s and ports so that you can play games using multi button joysticks or A8 compatible joypads (like the sega one and the ones you could buy for the amoeba)

 

If the pads are already compatible, you don't need an adapter to make them work...

 

The idea being is that you have two programs running inside the stella adapter, the first program deals with reading the j/s and ports the second program deals with modifying running programs so you can use 2 buttons, one idea is that the program could be written that programs the additional button (or buttons) appropriate to the game your playing

 

The problem there is that there's no way your magical adapter could fix that issue; each game (or because some had multiple revisions, each version of each game) would require a different hardwired fix since there's no way to automate the process of rebinding controls.

 

If people really want a solution (as in want it enough to put the effort in and get things moving) then it'll be far easier to get a compatible pad or, if it isn't just the case of getting an SMS one, building a microcontroller-powered inteface to filter the input of something more ubiquitous. Step one of many is probably to lobby the emulator authors to get support for the existing two button scheme, step two is making sure there's a good supply of cheap controllers out there that people can grab (if the scheme is Sega Master System compatible that shouldn't be a problem, if not some more work'll be needed), step three is getting some decent programmer-oriented documentation for the scheme together[1], step four is finding some sucker... erm, programmer to do all the donkey work of modifying the games.

 

[1] i have to go digging through my Storage Boxes Of Stuff at some point this week for an A1200, if i find my Maverick 1M i might see if it's actually working to run some tests in SMS mode. If it is, i'll document what i find.

[Android8675]

Back when I was EA I traded several copies of Madden 2xxx for this setup with foot pedals. Still have em somewhere. god only knows where though.

 

Didn't try to interface them with my 800 though.

 

[ledzep]

The problem is making the game play well with two different control schemes; try playing something with a Playstation Dualshock connected to a PC with and without the analog thumbstick and there's a noticeable difference between how the controls feel and that's not even properly processing the analog data. Tuning a game so one of these control schemes or a full-blown analog system doesn't disadvantage the player in some way is pretty tricky and there's no easy way for those of us cross assembling to emulators to even test the code so the process of implementing the controls gets harder too.

 

The Dualshock thumbstick or perhaps a Wii Nunchuck could be used as a cheap and cheerful analogue stick for the A8 if the output was decoded with a microcontroller though... there's already converters out there for the former to DB9 but i'm fairly sure they only deal with digital data. Tell you what, if someone builds an easy to produce interface that people'll buy for the Nunchuck and gives me a couple of freebies, i'll write a small game that utilises it. =-)

 

I wasn't suggesting 2 different control schemes, I was suggesting a new, analog joystick that uses the 2 POT inputs and leaves the joystick lines for buttons and then programming games for that new joystick. Does anyone worry about trying to play Breakout or Pong with a joystick or a keypad? No, those are the wrong controllers for the game, people just use the paddles like they're supposed to (especially because even if the other controllers could be used they'd provide a far inferior experience). And I'm not suggesting adapting a Dualshock to be used on the Atari 8-bit computer or 2600, either, I'm suggesting a brand new joystick design with an analog stick and 4 or 5 buttons on it (maybe 1 or 2 of them on the stick itself?) because I hate joypads (I am biased towards old arcade games like Red Baron and Defender and Tail Gunner that used actual joysticks vs. handheld gamepad controllers), I'm suggesting an actual joystick that isn't so small that it requires the user to use his thumb to move it. An actual stick.

 

It seems to me that Atari already provided the hardware ability to allow analog joysticks to be made and used, they just never supported them and neither did anybody else. No reason that someone couldn't rectify that now, right? Imagine the games that could be made with this new joystick with multiple buttons but also the ability to be read as analog for games like Star Wars and Tail Gunner and other analog stick game ideas. I'm also not suggesting this as a replacement for the standard digital stick, either, since many games don't benefit from an analog stick (and some would suffer). This would be just another controller to best take advantage of how a game is designed like a trak-ball or paddles or a keypad.

[Subby]

Back when I was EA I traded several copies of Madden 2xxx for this setup with foot pedals. Still have em somewhere. god only knows where though.

 

Didn't try to interface them with my 800 though.

 

Argh!

I loved those! Thrustmasters were my favorite HOTAS setup. For some stupid reason I sold mine years ago. And then had to go out and buy a Saitk set, just before they went to USB. Argh again.

Still got my Thrustmaster ISA joystick interface board though.

[TMR]

And I'm not suggesting adapting a Dualshock to be used on the Atari 8-bit computer or 2600, either, I'm suggesting a brand new joystick design with an analog stick and 4 or 5 buttons on it (maybe 1 or 2 of them on the stick itself?) because I hate joypads

 

It's a scientific fact that digital joysticks are better than analog.[1]

 

It seems to me that Atari already provided the hardware ability to allow analog joysticks to be made and used, they just never supported them and neither did anybody else. No reason that someone couldn't rectify that now, right?

 

Well, yes there's reasons what that probably won't be rectified; Atari and the third party controller manufacturers back in the 1970s and 1980s were large companies with significant resources available to them whilst we, as a group, are a collection of thirty and forty somethings doing whatever we do in our spare time. That's why i brought up the DualShock and Nunchuck really, they're cheap and reasonably ubiquitous, well documented and easy to re-purpose so, if someone really wants to get an analog control scheme going, in theory at least that's their "gateway drug".

 

Problem two then becomes persuading the few people out there who can actually program to design and write games that only support this new control scheme; that will probably be more difficult than building a bespoke piece of hardware.

 

[1] Sorry, couldn't resist; if you don't remember the 2010 thread i'm referring to, you probably don't want to go looking just to find out that line was a joke. =-)

[ledzep]

It's a scientific fact that digital joysticks are better than analog.[1]

 

[1] Sorry, couldn't resist; if you don't remember the 2010 thread i'm referring to, you probably don't want to go looking just to find out that line was a joke. =-)

 

Hahahaaha, remember it? I ended up being part of it (if it's the unending debate I think you're referring to)! You got me, I was thinking "No way, there's no way that fucking guy is trying to start that argument up again!"

 

Well, yes there's reasons what that probably won't be rectified; Atari and the third party controller manufacturers back in the 1970s and 1980s were large companies with significant resources available to them whilst we, as a group, are a collection of thirty and forty somethings doing whatever we do in our spare time. That's why i brought up the DualShock and Nunchuck really, they're cheap and reasonably ubiquitous, well documented and easy to re-purpose so, if someone really wants to get an analog control scheme going, in theory at least that's their "gateway drug".

 

Problem two then becomes persuading the few people out there who can actually program to design and write games that only support this new control scheme; that will probably be more difficult than building a bespoke piece of hardware.

 

Well, I agree that it would be difficult. We're not running our own manufacturing plants and the homebrew-buying consumer base is not large. And, even within that group, some guys are too cheap to pay extra for actual hardware, they're satisfied to buy just a cartridge (as opposed to cartridge + box + manual) or even pay for just a ROM file.

 

But I have seen that if the product is right it can sell. Fury Unlimited has produced a few new controllers and people have bought them. Big whoop, it's not thousands of controllers creating a huge user base, true, but how else do you create a user base? You would have to start small. That's why I was saying a game + the controller (sort of like the Atari 2600 game Indy 500 with its packed-in Driving Controllers) so that the game helps to generate the user base for the new analog stick. That requires that the game itself be really good, not simply a modified digital stick game like a Pac-Man or Solar Fox, but a game that really takes advantage of the analog stick itself or, at the least, the availability of the extra buttons (maybe a stick version of Missile Command or a multi-button game like Defender) or, best-case, a brand new analog stick game.

 

This could be a good candidate for a Kickstarter solution. Get the money up front (after actually figuring out costs and materials and time) for the new controller and game and then, after the initial run is put out there, keep making more controllers and selling them. I don't see a problem with the programming, it would be little different than programming for paddles, right? Same inputs, just having to deal with a couple more buttons (depending on the game) and it's not like the game has to use the analog aspects of the POT inputs, those inputs could be read as just directions (increasing/decreasing X and Y) and convert that to 8-way digital. It seems the arcade game repro guys have figured out how to survive by selling limited amounts of parts (I can't see a massive demand for Black Widow side art or Battlezone joysticks), maybe someone from that crowd has some advice on how to manufacture a new controller and sell it.

[TMR]

Hahahaaha, remember it? I ended up being part of it (if it's the unending debate I think you're referring to)! You got me, I was thinking "No way, there's no way that fucking guy is trying to start that argument up again!"

 

i nearly posted without the footnote as well... [Evil grin =-]

 

I don't see a problem with the programming, it would be little different than programming for paddles, right? Same inputs, just having to deal with a couple more buttons (depending on the game) and it's not like the game has to use the analog aspects of the POT inputs, those inputs could be read as just directions (increasing/decreasing X and Y) and convert that to 8-way digital.

 

i'm not really seeing a problem in that context because it isn't exactly the same as programming for paddles but the logical jump required is tiny. It's more about getting programmers who almost all appear to enjoy designing and coding the sort of game where a digital joystick works best interested in working on things that are better served with analog.

 

You'll also need to make sure that those working on real hardware get a prototype device to work with well in advance and that the emulator devs add the scheme similarly early so those programmers who cross develop (most of them as far as i can tell) have a way to test code they write (DualShock to USB converters are cheap and cheerful, that'll work reasonably well for the emulators). And preferably you want some tame coders on board as well, but keeping them focused... that's quite tricky.

[carmel_andrews]

I dunno why there are so few joypads/gamepads for the PC, I think theres about 2 companies that still make them namely logitech/logic3 and Saitek (apart from the imported chinese or Asian PC usb gamepads that are a dime a dozen, I used to have a couple of decent ones from a company called 'topway' i got them at seperate times from them el cheapo PC computer fairs/shows)

 

My logictech dual action i got second hand from CEX, the Saitek i have i think it's on it's last legs, i got it from a well known PC specialist (Yoyotech), anyone thats into pc modding and overclocking will and should know who yoyotech is, unfortunately yoyotech seems to have closed down it's retail shop in TCR (I think they're trying to flog it off as 'concession space', as I recall seeing a sign on their shop window saying as such)

[morelenmir]

I have heard this phrase 'latch' before, especially in regards memory addressing and the shortcomings of ANTIC. What exactly is 'latch'?

 

A short digression I know and apologize for, but it has come up again here in the discussion.

Edited July 10, 2013 by morelenmir

[Creature XL]

Most of the problem is a lack of standard for a second button; the DB9 was laid out with six pins handling four directions, one fire button and a ground line so there's no "official" way to do it, at least not according to Atari because the remaining lines are down as two potentiometers and a 5V line.

 

If we pretend to be a hardware manufacturer in the 1980s for a bit, by the time people were saying it'd be nice to have a second fire button we as a company are already supporting multiple 8-bit machines and some of them didn't assign pins the same way as the Atari hardware does. That means our new Decimator™ joystick is either going to be a single button stick that supports pretty much anything with a DB9 connection or it'll have two independent buttons but we're limited, only owners of one or two platforms can use it. And even if we take this financial risk ourselves, we don't make games so will need to sweet talk the software companies to persuade them that putting the extra effort into supporting our scheme is worth doing despite it not paying any dividends back to them.

 

No risk, much fun:

Just add a 2nd lead to the computer's 2nd joystick port and you are set.

Assuming, most (or all?) of the computers had a 2nd port AND there were enough games you would play alone.

Nowadays, that wouldn't be a problem. Guess most of us play alone at home In the 80's that might have been different. I wouldn't know.

[TMR]

No risk, much fun:

Just add a 2nd lead to the computer's 2nd joystick port and you are set.

 

It still falls at the point where there's no software support so, unless our theoretical joystick company is Mega Joystick PLC which has a large market share and lots of mass it can throw around in the market to get developers and publishers on board (or gets to the party very early in the DB9 joystick's lifespan), it's likely to end up trying to sell a gimmick. Even when the company had that weight it wasn't guaranteed to work, Commodore teamed up with Cheetah for the Annihilator but it flopped, partly due to Cheetah's build "quality" (if you sneezed too hard it'd snap) but also because the interest wasn't there either.

[Creature XL]

As mentioned above, there WERE games supposed to be played with two buttons.

Spyhunter for one.

 

And so many games used the spacebar for smartbombs or other stuff. That was the idea I had in mind for my game.

Users with a SEGA controller could use 2nd button, others had to use the spacebar.

And as of now I would as well let the user choose to use the trigger of a 2nd joystick

 

However, as I have to cut down the feature list of the compo game this year, it will definitely be one-button only

Damn deadline. WTH is it in the summer anyways? (rhetorical question, I know why it is).

Last year I spend hours in the hotel coding. And this year will not be any different

[TMR]

As mentioned above, there WERE games supposed to be played with two buttons.

Spyhunter for one.

 

Yeah, but work those out as a percentage of everything on the market to judge their overall impact. The same goes for cartridge-based games like Robocop 2 on the C64 which optionally support two buttons, they don't account for anywhere near 1% of what's available for the machine overall.

 

Last year I spend hours in the hotel coding. And this year will not be any different

 

 

 

Working late at night sorts out some of the problems that summer presents to programmers; i was up until about 2am this morning writing a Windows-based converter for GTIA fonts because i got tired of repeatedly doing the work manually. (It's yet another example of my regular "what user interface?" school of tool design... =-)

[Synthpopalooza]

 

 

Working late at night sorts out some of the problems that summer presents to programmers; i was up until about 2am this morning writing a Windows-based converter for GTIA fonts because i got tired of repeatedly doing the work manually. (It's yet another example of my regular "what user interface?" school of tool design... =-)

 

You can use G2F for that you know ... just resize your work to 320x192 and then load it into G2F using the Graphics 9 setting and you get fonts.

 

Back to topic tho: Good programmers always do their best work in the wee hours. I burned a lot of late hours doing up the music for PacManPlus's 7800 Bentley Bear game.

[TMR]

You can use G2F for that you know ... just resize your work to 320x192 and then load it into G2F using the Graphics 9 setting and you get fonts.

 

G2F has never worked on my machines here. And i don't need to resize anything with my own converter because it does that for me as well as pushing out 2:1 ratio auto dithered versions of the graphics for use with the tile editor. =-)

[pixelmischief]

A multi-button gamepad would be interesting, but not extremely useful, since existing software would not work with it. What WOULD be MUCH MORE useful is a 2-phase progression:

 

FIRST: Give us a gamepad that has a second button mapped to UP. A great many games on all the platforms that use the 9-Pin Atari-type joystick elect to do something else useful with the fire button and use UP for jumping. A second button mapped to UP that appropriately "mixed" that UP with left and right, and which provided duration, would be excellent. Imagine Ridiculous Reality with a jump button. 16-Bit? Fire and Ice with jump

 

SECOND: Give us a programmable gamepad that can have keyboard keys assigned to the buttons. If it could be accomplished through just the 9-pin connection, great. If it could be adapted for multiple platforms, better. Otherwise, maybe the gamepad could have an additional interface to the PBI, cart slot, whatever, to insert the keystrokes. 6-button Karateka FTW. How about Stargate with fire and smartbomb buttons. 16 Bit? Xenon with a fire button AND a change button?

Edited July 12, 2013 by pixelmischief

[TMR]

FIRST: Give us a gamepad that has a second button mapped to UP. A great many games on all the platforms that use the 9-Pin Atari-type joystick elect to do something else useful with the fire button and use UP for jumping. A second button mapped to UP that appropriately "mixed" that UP with left and right, and which provided duration, would be excellent.

 

If you're going to map a button to up, you'll preferably want to disable the regular for that direction to avoid "false positives", it's very easy to accidentally push up on the D pad when just trying to go left or right.

 

i don't do hardware but something along these lines could probably be done with existing gamepads and something like an Arduino with a custom shield that pulls in the input and "translates" it for the 8-bit's joystick port. A nice user interface (preferably with some visual representation of how the controls are currently bound) and the option to save and load control schemes would be preferable to save having to keep rebind controls when changing games.

 

SECOND: Give us a programmable gamepad that can have keyboard keys assigned to the buttons. If it could be accomplished through just the 9-pin connection, great. If it could be adapted for multiple platforms, better.

 

This step moves things away from using the DB9 and towards custom hardware for each platform. It's also a bit stuffed on the games that only use joystick unless there's a "pigtail" going around to the DB9 as well.

[Creature XL]

SECOND: Give us a programmable gamepad that can have keyboard keys assigned to the buttons. If it could be accomplished through just the 9-pin connection, great. If it could be adapted for multiple platforms, better. Otherwise, maybe the gamepad could have an additional interface to the PBI, cart slot, whatever, to insert the keystrokes. 6-button Karateka FTW. How about Stargate with fire and smartbomb buttons. 16 Bit? Xenon with a fire button AND a change button?

 

 

I guess the most useful mapping besides "up" would be "space". But that cannot be done (easily) with HW.

Software would be not that hard, if the game uses the standard OS keyboard IRQ. Don't know how much games that are. I for one use the HW registers without any IRQ and I assume most other coders do the same.

[Lynxpro]

It had to do with "thinking outside the box". It seems like Atari was incapable of this at that time. 5200 controllers were just a copy/improvement (in their mind) of Colecovision and Intellivision designs. It took an outsider to come up with the gamepad.

 

 

No, it took a cheapo to come up with the gamepad; it was all about maximizing profit. The gamepad was cheaper to build than a joystick or paddle controller.

 

 

 

It wasn't until 1998 that we had a 2-button game on the Atari ... Bill Kendrick's "Gem Drop" allowed for use of the Sega Genesis controller ... the B and C buttons were both usable, button B being read from the PADDLE(0) register.

 

Bill! Long live the Davis Atari Party!

 

Sorry, just had to give that shout-out and credit where credit is due...

 

 

I dunno why there are so few joypads/gamepads for the PC, I think theres about 2 companies that still make them namely logitech/logic3 and Saitek (apart from the imported chinese or Asian PC usb gamepads that are a dime a dozen, I used to have a couple of decent ones from a company called 'topway' i got them at seperate times from them el cheapo PC computer fairs/shows)

 

As much as I detest Microsoft, I am/was a big fan of their Sidewinder game pads. I also loved the button mapping software that they bundled with it as part of the driver. Loved using the Sidewinder with Quake when it was released. I suffer from an aversion to using a keyboard for gaming. I think it has to do with having had an Atari ST and being "traumatized" by the likes of Skyfox advocating using the keyboard and mouse to control the ship. It seemed so artificial and bizarre like all of the Apple // and IBM PC owners who suffered through using their keyboards - especially the arrow keys - to control gaming because the machines didn't come with standard joystick ports. Now, having a separate gaming keyboard accessory doesn't seem artificial to my brain considering how Atari did that with Star Raiders on the 2600...

 

And now, you can use an Xbox 360 controller for PC gaming....

 

 

I can understand why the Atari 8-bit series used the standard one-button joysticks and paddles. They were just using what they had available from the 2600.

 

What gets me though is the ST. They had a design for a two button joystick from the 7800 controllers, and yet they stuck with the 2600 controllers. Heck, they even shipped the 7800 Prolines with the 2600 Jr. Why not make the ST use these controllers and just use the same thing across the entire product line.

 

The easy answer to that is the 7800 was designed by GCC while the ST was designed by TTL/Atari Corp. staff and both for different purposes. However, the fact the ST Mouse was two button - unlike the Apple mice - and plugged into the DB9 should've been a sign that supporting 2 buttons for a joystick should've been relatively trivial. However, one must also remember that you could only plug the ST Mouse into 1 of the 2 joystick ports on the ST. Man, I loved Practical Peripherals' "Mouse Master" device...

 

 

The ST stick/mouse ports were a pretty lame implementation. It was a minimal interface which couldn't even track the mouse if you moved it quickly. Anyway, I stick by my assessment that Tramiel=Cheap.

 

 

Although you are correct with the "Tramiel = Cheap" assessment, I had no problems with the ST Mouse. As long as you had mouse accelerator software, it worked fine. And the ST Mouse was more comfortable to use than the Amiga Mouse, at least IMHO.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Lynxpro

[The Usotsuki]

Apple ][ had a joystick port standard - but easier to access on the //e and later.