ECS : is there homebrews planned for it?

[+intvsteve]

I get your point. Still, this mean there is things the Master Component can't do. You could have to make use of the keyboard for some actions; like in an adventure game à la Maze of Galious on MSX, where you play with a joystick (or the arrow keys) but to access some places, you must find a word in a room then enter it on the right place.

That's just a suggestion, an idea that could be done.

King's Quest!

[JohnPCAE]

Colossal Cave?

[+Gemintronic]

Colossal Cave?

 

That would be better. I always thought the Sega Master System version of Kings Quest was best because it killed the guess-what's-a-valid-command game.

 

Colossal Cave lives and breaths text so the keyboard interface is perfect.

[+DZ-Jay]

King's Quest!

Hehe... I'm not telling...

[+Lathe26]

What about "Super NFL Football"? You can create and save your own playbook. I've only started playing it, but it seems to play pretty well.

[vprette]

Colossal Cave?

Joe Z. may be interested to keep the colossal development from where I stopped.. but a problem in general is that very few people have ECS

[Intymike]

Joe Z. may be interested to keep the colossal development from where I stopped.. but a problem in general is that very few people have ECS

 

Maybe you should ask David how much Flintstones and Football games he has sold.

[+thegoldenband]

I'd love to see more games take advantage of the ECS, though I think some sort of enhancement, 4-player option, or bonus content is more feasible than having an ECS-only game. Joe Z.'s cart designs can supply RAM, so I don't see why a game should depend on the ECS's onboard RAM (which is the main reason for otherwise having a game be ECS-only).

 

I know I've said this before, but text-based games don't need to be ECS-exclusive since ECS owners can use the keyboard, and non-ECS owners can use cell phone texting techniques for text input.

 

And a game with a 4-player option would be incredibly welcome, and would do a lot to justify the ECS -- even if the number of people with Intellivision-friendly friends, an ECS, and two spare working Intellivision II controllers is relatively small. (Heck, I have 4 Intellivision II controllers, and I think only one of them works 100%.)

 

I'd love to write tunes that detect the ECS and supply extra channels of audio if it's present, but as of yet I don't know how to do that. Six channels of AY sound, though, is an embarrassment of riches -- did any other US-released console (if you can call the ECS-expanded system a console) offer that many channels before the TurboGrafx-16?

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Boulder Dash ® is probably going to support the ECS sound chip to some degree.

 

I'd love to see a 'Warlords' type game for Intellivision. I know that Catsfolly is going to experiment with ColorSquare mode programming, so who knows.

[+intvsteve]

Boulder Dash ® is probably going to support the ECS sound chip to some degree.

 

I'd love to see a 'Warlords' type game for Intellivision. I know that Catsfolly is going to experiment with ColorSquare mode programming, so who knows.

That would be cool. What would be incredibly awesome is to support a mode that accepted input from (modded) Atari paddle controllers. I've always been curious just how versatile the digital I/O on the Intellivision is. You'd need a simple A/D converter to translate the voltage from the analog knob to an 8-bit value. Has anyone experimented with this sort of thing before? This would be totally different than producing something "pin compatible" with the existing controllers.

 

I know, I know... Totally unrealistic. From a software perspective, I don't think it'd be that bad - just a custom controller decoder routine. The limiting factor would be that you'd need the A/D and of course the "easy" systems would have to be Inty II or ECS. You'd have to open your traditional consoles and set up a connection to the paddle controllers that way.

[+nurmix]

I don't know about synth games, but a cool synth/tracker program is on my Gort Excursion List, also known as "things to do if the Earth stood still."

 

I especially want to create something for live playing. Talking to Seth from 8-Bit Weapon at CGE last year, he mentioned that he doesn't really use the Intellivision for his music because there was no good way to play it, except for rolling your own synth software which he wasn't ready to do. That, and a nice conversation with Nurmix on what would be useful for musicians gave me some ideas. I'm sort of like an old analog-synth aficionado, so it's a project close to my heart.

 

However, it'll have to wait in line with all the rest of the crap I have planned. So... anybody know how to stop time?

You KNOW I'd be all over a project like this. I've been wishing for a way to incorporate my ECS/synthesizer keyboard into my MIDI/recording setup for ages.

 

Unfortunately, my programming days never continued beyond the Atari 800 XL and BASIC (although I did figure out Player Missile Graphics). I have several of my original Atari 8-bit games and demos on my website for download if anyone is interested.

 

What I'd really like for the synth keyboard is:

 

1. A synthesizer - a way to create unique sounds that can be played with the keyboard. Preferably a way to tweak the various sound parameters in real time.

 

2. A way to record (sequencer / tracker) using the above original sounds.

 

3. Or if a tracker / sequencer is out of the question, then MIDI capability so I can use the ECS as a synth module in my existing setup.

 

I know, real limited market for this stuff, but so far at least me and dZ want this!

 

 

[+Lathe26]

Ok, I'm going to practice a little bit of thread necromancy, but I wanted to add to this thread for any future aspiring developers who might read this.

There are pros and cons of developing for the ECS. DZ-Jay already gave a good list of cons.

Downsides:

Prevalence - There are fewer ECSs out there than there are Master Consoles. Thus, any game that requires ECS hardware will have a smaller sales market.

Mixed Bag:

RAM - Additional 2KB of 8-bit RAM. This provides more data storage. However, it can not be used for code (can't execute from 8-bit RAM). Also, modern homebrew carts can provide even more their own RAM.

ROM - More built-in routines are available to programmers, which saves on cartridge ROM space and simplifies development. However, I'm not sure how useful they are in practice.

Keyboard - Greatly increases what the user can input, more than just the standard controller. However, the keyboard is not great to type on because of the chiclet keys. Also, some of the keys are not in the typical 104/107-key arrangement. In short, users will not write Shakespeare on it, but it is great for short sentences. If only very short text input is needed but is rare, just use the T9-style text input on the standard controller.

Synthesizer - Can quickly input musical notes. While the note value can be played, the volume/intensity is not (ex: pressing the key hard or soft produces the same value).

Add 3rd and 4th Controller - I'd love to see a 4 player game. However, being realistic, it would be hard to actually get 4 people in a room to play the Intellivision (hard enough just to get a 2nd player).

Output only AUX port - This is a serial port, though I don't know if it's output is audio voltage, standard RS-232 voltages, or something else. It runs at 300 bps. Maybe some custom hardware would be useful here (output only) or maybe just output some developer debug information.

Upsides:

 

2nd Sound Chip - Produce richer sounds with 3 new channels and 1 extra noise channel. I've heard that "Space Patrol" takes advantage of the 2nd sound chip (I've not confirmed).

Controller Ports for Input/Output - If you want to build specialty hardware, the ECS provides 16 simple GPIO pins (2 banks of 8 pins that are all input or all output).

I/O serial port - The ECS can read and write serially at 300 bps as audio. Designed for tape drives, it also can be used with laptops to record/play as WAV or MP3 files. More developers should take advantage of this to do a "save game" or allow storing complex configuring (ex: Super NFL Football can save custom playbooks). I feel this feature is truly under utilized.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Lathe26

[+DZ-Jay]

Lathe26,

 

That's a nice round-up of most of the comments in this thread. Thanks for doing that. I just want to comment on a few points:

 

• Space Patrol does utilize the additional sound channels offered by the ECS. However, don't run out and buy an ECS just for that! All it does is to prioritize simultaneous sound effects and music on any available channels. If you have an ECS, this means that it has three more channels to use, so more sound effects may play simultaneously. By contrast, if you don't have the ECS, the extra sound effect would be dropped. All that said, due to the nature of the game, not that many sound effects occur simultaneously. I'm not even sure if you would notice if there were more or not. I believe a couple of other games do the same.

 

• For saved games, Joe Z.'s JLP cartridge offers the ability to store data in Flash RAM. Christmas Carol was intended to use this for a high-score table, which was built, but never polished enough to include in the release. (It does save the state of having saved Christmas, so the 8th level remains unlocked in the Practice Menu.) I believe Match 5 does keep the high-score table in Flash RAM. This reduces the practicality of depending on the ECS's I/O serial port and custom rigging with a computer for a similar effect.

 

• Any additional modern custom hardware that takes advantage of I/O ports or the AUX channel output may as well skip the ECS altogether and hook-up directly into the data bus. I think Joe Z. was experimenting with things like that, but I'm not sure to what extent they were practical commercial products.

 

• It takes a significant amount of effort and treasure to invest in what may result in a mere technical curiosity. For all the promises that extended hardware could bring, I think our best chance is for programmers to use what's there already and, well, make games. The bigger the library--the more prolific and industrious the home-brew scene gets--the more attractive the Intellivision will become to the rest of the retro-enthusiasts. Perhaps then the market may grow enough to support investments in new hardware.

 

-dZ.

[+nurmix]

Great information here, thanks guys!'

 

What do you know about the possibility of utilizing the expansion port under the plastic cover of the Intellivoice? As I understand it, the Intellivoice includes a buffer chip that interfaces the Orator chip with the Master Component. And that same buffer chip could be used to interface other devices to the Master Component, such as additional hand controllers.

 

Just off the top of my head, what about some sort of high score save hardware that could work with any game? A pipe dream? Possible? A MIDI interface?

 

Would there be any advantage to using this port instead of the cartridge port for things like this?

 

[+DZ-Jay]

Great information here, thanks guys!'

 

What do you know about the possibility of utilizing the expansion port under the plastic cover of the Intellivoice? As I understand it, the Intellivoice includes a buffer chip that interfaces the Orator chip with the Master Component. And that same buffer chip could be used to interface other devices to the Master Component, such as additional hand controllers.

 

Just off the top of my head, what about some sort of high score save hardware that could work with any game? A pipe dream? Possible? A MIDI interface?

 

Would there be any advantage to using this port instead of the cartridge port for things like this?

 

I think that's one of the ports that Joe Z. was experimenting with. I don't know about the feasibility of a MIDI interface (I don't know the technical requirements), but that would certainly be cool! Although you would need an ECS plugged into an Intellivoice, plugged into your Master Component, in order to make much use of it. The mind boggles!

 

-dZ.

[+Lathe26]

Great information here, thanks guys!'

 

What do you know about the possibility of utilizing the expansion port under the plastic cover of the Intellivoice? As I understand it, the Intellivoice includes a buffer chip that interfaces the Orator chip with the Master Component. And that same buffer chip could be used to interface other devices to the Master Component, such as additional hand controllers.

 

Just off the top of my head, what about some sort of high score save hardware that could work with any game? A pipe dream? Possible? A MIDI interface?

 

Would there be any advantage to using this port instead of the cartridge port for things like this?

 

The IntelliVoice expansion port is referred to as the "stacking connector" in Mattel documents. It was originally designed so that 2 wireless controllers could be plugged in (the 2 standard controllers would then be disabled). The IntelliVoice even has special circuitry that re-purposed a connector pin to be called RMHC (ReMote Hand Controller) that activated additional circuitry when plugged into the Keyboard Component (the predecessor to the ECS). I don't believe this pin has any effect on a stand-alone Master Component Intellivision.

 

Short version: The stacking connector offers just shy of 1K of 8-bit address space (a tiny address range is already used by the orator chip)

 

Comparing the Stacking Connector to the ECS

 

If you added RAM on the stacking connector, you would not be able to run code out of it (similar situation as ECS RAM).

 

However, the stacking connector is great for adding custom hardware (GPIO, perhaps a MIDI port, etc). This is what it was designed for.

 

Prevelence - The IntelliVoice is far more common in-the-field than the ECS. It is also viewed more popularly than the ECS. Unlike the ECS, I've never heard someone bash IntelliVoice games. It is also cheap to buy if you don't already own one (around $15).

 

However, there is a catch: the stacking connector is not built into all IntelliVoices. Early serial numbers have the connector while late serial numbers don't. The late ones don't have the connector soldered on and the cover plate is glued shut.

 

FYI: be careful removing the cover plate. I had 1 tab on a cover plate break off.

[+nurmix]

I think that's one of the ports that Joe Z. was experimenting with. I don't know about the feasibility of a MIDI interface (I don't know the technical requirements), but that would certainly be cool! Although you would need an ECS plugged into an Intellivoice, plugged into your Master Component, in order to make much use of it. The mind boggles!

 

-dZ.

Got all that covered if someone can make the MIDI interface! Then we just need synthesizer software running on the Inty/ECS that will give me the individual or layered patches (sounds) that will be triggered by MIDI from my sequencer / MIDI controller.

 

How cool would that be?!

 

[+nurmix]

The IntelliVoice expansion port is referred to as the "stacking connector" in Mattel documents. It was originally designed so that 2 wireless controllers could be plugged in (the 2 standard controllers would then be disabled). The IntelliVoice even has special circuitry that re-purposed a connector pin to be called RMHC (ReMote Hand Controller) that activated additional circuitry when plugged into the Keyboard Component (the predecessor to the ECS). I don't believe this pin has any effect on a stand-alone Master Component Intellivision.

 

Short version: The stacking connector offers just shy of 1K of 8-bit address space (a tiny address range is already used by the orator chip)

 

Comparing the Stacking Connector to the ECS

 

If you added RAM on the stacking connector, you would not be able to run code out of it (similar situation as ECS RAM).

 

However, the stacking connector is great for adding custom hardware (GPIO, perhaps a MIDI port, etc). This is what it was designed for.

 

Prevelence - The IntelliVoice is far more common in-the-field than the ECS. It is also viewed more popularly than the ECS. Unlike the ECS, I've never heard someone bash IntelliVoice games. It is also cheap to buy if you don't already own one (around $15).

 

However, there is a catch: the stacking connector is not built into all IntelliVoices. Early serial numbers have the connector while late serial numbers don't. The late ones don't have the connector soldered on and the cover plate is glued shut.

 

FYI: be careful removing the cover plate. I had 1 tab on a cover plate break off.

Wow, more great information. Very intriguing. Seems that it's not out of the realm of possibility to add MIDI capabilities to an Intellivision (coupled with an Intellivoice and of course, an ECS for the additional voices).

 

I have a stack of Intellivoices and a couple ECS modules... If only I was a hardware engineer...

 

[+DZ-Jay]

I have a stack of Intellivoices and a couple ECS modules... If only I was a hardware engineer...

 

Nah... That would be too easy, where's the challenge in that?

[CatPix]

So, back at home, received the module :

 

 

Whoever pretend that keyboard is bad certainly never played on any machine using a membrane keyboard, a gum keyboard, or a small key chicklet keyboard (like the ZX Spectrum, Philips VG5000µ.. Or the earliest versions of Atari 400).

Sure it's not the greatest keyboard of the 80's, but far from being the worst.

[jaybird3rd]

Whoever pretend that keyboard is bad certainly never played on any machine using a membrane keyboard, a gum keyboard, or a small key chicklet keyboard (like the ZX Spectrum, Philips VG5000µ.. Or the earliest versions of Atari 400).

 

Sure it's not the greatest keyboard of the 80's, but far from being the worst.

I've never found the ECS keyboard to be as bad as its reputation would suggest, either. Granted, it's no IBM Model M, but it's still better than membrane keyboards (Atari 400, Sinclair ZX81, etc) and even chicklet keyboards with rubberized caps (Mattel Aquarius). Typing on the ECS keyboard is kind of like typing on an old laptop, except that the keys have a slightly longer travel and the rubber dome switches under the hard plastic caps are more noticeable; it feels as if the caps are sitting atop little rubber balls. If the ECS keyboard gets very dirty, some of the keys have a tendency to stick (especially if you attack them at an angle), but that's about the only issue I've had with mine. For a keyboard designed mainly as a secondary game input device, it isn't that bad. I can even see how a split keyboard overlay—similar to the ones created for Aquarius games—could be made for the ECS keyboard, if one wanted to get really fancy.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

Overlay, you say

 

I'd love to see some cool creative stuff for the ECS in the next few years.

[+Lathe26]

So, back at home, received the module :

 

 

Whoever pretend that keyboard is bad certainly never played on any machine using a membrane keyboard, a gum keyboard, or a small key chicklet keyboard (like the ZX Spectrum, Philips VG5000µ.. Or the earliest versions of Atari 400).

Sure it's not the greatest keyboard of the 80's, but far from being the worst.

 

Fair enough. I'm probably just extra picky since I spent over a decade working in Microsoft's Hardware group, mostly on mice and keyboards (I'm referring to the mouse and keyboard hardware, not Windows drivers). Also, I have not used any of the worse keyboards you've mentioned, except for the ZX Spectrum which I used for less than 15 minutes over a quarter century ago. The only membrane keyboard I've used extensively was on a Speak & Read (a sister of Speak & Spell) when I was a kid.

 

I should point out that the ECS keyboard itself has a poorly designed scanning matrix that has some really basic "ghosting" issues. The result of this is that the default ECS ROMs can not handle a Shift with an A, D, G, J, or L (you don't notice this by default since ECS BASIC is an all-caps environment). That said, your own software can do a transposed scan to overcome this problem. "Ghosting" is an issue where pressing multiple keys at the same time would result in the keys cancelling themselves out or that software could no longer track what was being pressed. The electrical engineers at MS Hardware actually had a list of key combinations they specifically had to allow (ex: Ctrl+Alt+Del). For a really good discussion on this issue, check out http://atariage.com/forums/topic/193981-reading-the-ecs-keyboards/

Edited November 24, 2013 by Lathe26

[Special Teams]

I just picked up the ECS, and some of the keys don't seem to function, including the #1 and space bar which are kind of important! It looks new and included the box - does anyone know how to figure out what the problem might be?

[+Lathe26]

I just picked up the ECS, and some of the keys don't seem to function, including the #1 and space bar which are kind of important! It looks new and included the box - does anyone know how to figure out what the problem might be?

 

There are a number of things it could be, but since you said that #1 and spacebar aren't working, this sounds like there might be an issue with scanning row 0. That appears to be pin 4 of the left or right connector. Inspect those pins on the ECS computer part and the cable end. Read the bottom posts at http://atariage.com/forums/topic/193981-reading-the-ecs-keyboards/. That's about all I can offer for help.