When is an Atari no longer "an Atari?"

[fibrewire]

I prefer 74LS logic in a DIP package with accompanying EPROMs on a 2 layer PCB. It’s my thing, and it’s what makes an Atari 800 and that period of computer special to me. From an 815 to dual Corvus drives, and all the add-on cards I can stuff in my 800, you’ll find nothing but the aforementioned technology inside my collection.

The hardware presents an interesting challenge to the software developers, like a “what could have been” with the right ideas and motivation, and a deep understanding of the capabilities of our beloved 8-bit machine. I can't wait to see what tomorrow brings to the developer's circle! But to me, those 2 layer copper clad boards with rectangular through hole components and thick ribbon cables are the essence of the Atari.

I can unplug all the upgrades on my 800, and put the OS and RAM modules back in for a stock 48K Atari, all without cutting wires. Or I can leave it all connected and use the Bit-3 mode on a monochrome monitor for terminal or text edit - and pop in or load from Corvus Disk a game of Star Raiders or Pac-Man on my Amdek Color-I attached to the monitor port of the 800, all without unplugging boards or making changes to my system. If a component dies I can take out my trusty soldering iron and replace it with minimal effort.

I prefer beige gear, and I have a special interest in pre-Tramiel era projects. Even the cost-effective 130XE with MIO and RGB daughter board with SASI storage is still an Atari. Modifications like the Turbo 816 or Newell 256K were cool and fun to play with, but I stubbornly stick by what has sentimental value to me.

There have been many projects to interface the Atari to a modern world which compliment the original peripherals, such as SIO2PC and Lantronix devices. There are also external storage devices that interface via SIO or PBI. These are useful for developers and power users for reducing disk swapping time or testing new code on actual hardware. Also is the advent of emulation, a way to take the original machine and every other peripheral and piece of software with you without having to ever touch the physical Atari hardware.

Today we have amazing advancements in the 8-bit scene with CPLD hardware that would have impressed the original designers of the Atari 8-bit line. I would really like to see those CPLD projects translated into big, unwieldy external boxes housing 74LS chips and EPROMS, but hey it’s still an Atari right?

Recently, work on a DE1 FPGA board has caused interest in creating an Atari Flashback style device for our beloved 8-bit computer. Will it include other recent CPLD projects, with modern ports and storage devices? Will it still have a SIO port?

I guess what I am faced with is “Theseus’s Paradox” and I want to know other's interpretations about this evolutionary path of the Atari 8-bit computer.

[Bryan]

Personally I'm a lot more excited when I see something done on original hardware, also I do think there are bits of the A8 that deserve some minor tweaking.

 

If you're into collecting vintage tube radios, then the ultimate prize is a completely restored vintage tube radio. Not a vintage tube radio enclosure with an MP3 player and MOSFET amplifier installed in it.

 

But, computers are computers and our expectation is that they are always improving and serving more of our needs. There's a definite conflict when we want the nostalgia of a 30+ year old machine and yet we want the features of something modern. It's almost as though we find that the machine isn't really as good as we remember. Of course, things like storage add-ons give us more control over our libraries and help us spend more time actually using the software, but other upgrades change the nature of the machine entirely.

 

I tend to agree with you. If you can build an expansion using '80s technology, then it's something that could have actually happened. It's like a peripheral from a parallel universe. But modern hardware is a slippery slope. There's no constraints to define the machine. It seems better to set up an emulator and leave all the old junk to the collectors.

[adam242]

 

I prefer 74LS logic in a DIP package with accompanying EPROMs on a 2 layer PCB. It’s my thing, and it’s what makes an Atari 800 and that period of computer special to me. From an 815 to dual Corvus drives, and all the add-on cards I can stuff in my 800, you’ll find nothing but the aforementioned technology inside my collection.

.....

 

I completely agree with you in principle - but man, I love my Incognito. The ability to run ALL Atari 8-bit software on the original beige classic tank is just way too cool. The setup menu is a little surreal, but physically its invisible. Looks like a '79 Atari 800.

 

 

If you're into collecting vintage tube radios, then the ultimate prize is a completely restored vintage tube radio. Not a vintage tube radio enclosure with an MP3 player and MOSFET amplifier installed in it.

 

I especially like that metaphor. Things like the "New Commodore 64" make me a little queasy.

[JamesD]

It comes down to the keyboard, accurate timing and on screen look.

For any machine with a good keyboard with a matching key layout and markings is important. Totally different layouts just cause issues. For machines that had a crap keyboard, I don't mind a few minor layout changes though. Stuff like adding a space bar to machines that didn't have one, replacing the space or ctrl key that was where a shift key was supposed to be, etc..

As long as the machine has a mode to run old games accurately, you can add a fast CPU mode, more RAM or whatever and I'm all for it.

I have no problem with using a DE1, new board to replace the original motherboard or whatever as long as the on screen look and human interface feel are preserved.

I'm also all for software controlled high speed modes, processor upgrades, Incognito or whatever as long as you still preserve the on screen look and keyboard feel.

*edit*
I'm not a fan of PCs is C64 cases running an emulator.

Edited November 14, 2013 by JamesD

[WizWor]

Well, from a less technical perspective, I prefer old iron except for...

 

1) Storage: I prefer MaxFlash and SDrive to floppy and tape.

2) Output: I prefer an LCD with no RF interference to a CRT

 

I haven't made any modifications to any of my hardware, I simply substitute peripherals where appropriate.

[Marius]

Since almost a year now I am entirely concentrating on external solutions so my Atari stays original, which means that everything I can run on it is on actual vintage Atari.

 

Other benefit I can move from one Atari to another. (With internal modifications I have to mod all my atari's)

[BillC]

 

I prefer 74LS logic in a DIP package with accompanying EPROMs on a 2 layer PCB. It’s my thing, and it’s what makes an Atari 800 and that period of computer special to me. From an 815 to dual Corvus drives, and all the add-on cards I can stuff in my 800, you’ll find nothing but the aforementioned technology inside my collection.

I take it that you're not one of the 1450XL builders then, from what I've read they are supposed to use a 4 layer board.

[candle]

Fiberwire, FYI, bit-3 uses 4 layer board

[foft]

An incoherent bunch of my thoughts on this topic...

 

Well Atari was/is a brand of many hardware/software designers. To be Atari is to be made by that brand. Much of the contents of the Atari were not made by the Atari but that is how we refer to the unit. So if we start to change within the unit, how much do we need to change before it is no longer Atari?

 

There will (probably) never be any new Atari 8-bit system's made. So it seems that preserving the original hardware is important.

 

I use Atari largely because of nostalgia since I had one growing up and learned to program on it. In those days I would have been very excited about CPU/video upgrades. Even though even with the upgrade it is very weak by modern standards.

 

I think the hardware is very interesting because it is simple enough to be understood to learn about electronics. Especially with so much of the confidential info now in the public domain. Things like the Raspberry PI are still too complex/closed. Understanding a 10K/16K ROM completely is possible. Understanding a 1GB Linux system completely is not possible.

 

I have an interest in hardware. Programming these systems means programming the hardware directly. The hardware tends to be more precise in how it works (except at the very edge). Modern programming is about writing to a software interface.

 

If I'm using an Atari, Altirra, Atari++, Atari 800 or a DE1 Atari inside a black box - with external keyboard. If I (or anyone) can not tell the difference from real to the others, are they the same thing on some level?

[fibrewire]

If I'm using an Atari, Altirra, Atari++, Atari 800 or a DE1 Atari inside a black box - with external keyboard. If I (or anyone) can not tell the difference from real to the others, are they the same thing on some level?

 

I believe it is, and I definitely want one - but nothing says disappointment like making something and not having it work on any of the original hardware. Luckily there are several outstanding people here that respond quickly and work to solve these issues. I love this community!

[danwinslow]

If, when programming it, you don't find yourself desperately wishing for more colors......

 

 

It's not an Atari.

[+Larry]

An Atari -- uses an Atari mobo and the 5 major IC's (or updates) that all Ataris have. 6502 (family), Antic, C/GITA, POKEY, PIA. In addition, this hardware uses the conceptual framework of the original Atari OS (800 or XL/XE) and therefore can run most software written for the stock Ataris.

 

If it has these, I think it is an "Atari."

 

If it runs on a PC -- it's not! (Actually, as I think about the past, one of the proposals for a "new Atari" was a PC card with the major IC's on the board along with the Atari OS. -- from Chuck Steinman, IIRC.)

 

-Larry

[Matej]

A800 Flashback or TV joystick will be good... With ability to upload new games from PC, MAC (USB+build in flash)...

It will helps scene. Such system must supports homebrew from beginning... New games will keep platform alive.

I will buy such TV game or retro console. Maybe best will be as gaming handheld...

 

Portable A800XE .

 

Why FPGA game handheld?

Atari 800 users will buy it to have portable A8. Atari fans will buy it just to have new Atari game handheld (Lynx or Jaguar, 7800 fans).

People owning Gameboys, Sega Game Gears, Vitas, DS, WiiU, PSPs, NGPCs, Wonderswans,DINGOOs will buy it just because they want to have another handheld game console... (I own GBA, DS and Gamegear for example).

 

So this makes sense to me. To have portable 8bit or 16bit (65816) game handheld...

Best with Stereopokey and VBXE... So there will be GBA SP like games too in future...

 

LCDs are cheap. And when you will use LCD from mobile phone they will be ultracheap.

Same with joystick (PSP joy).

 

Game handhelds have smaller plastic shell... = Lower price...

 

This makes sense. Rather than using FPGA in new board...

Something simple. With D-PAD, 1xFire (atari joy), SDcard (SDrive or Sio2SD), earphone plug, on-off, option, start, select, reset, help (buttons).

With very simple design... Can be gray {color}.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Matej

[Subby]

This is always an interesting topic. And every time it comes up, the first thing I think of is "why must it be an either/or proposition?"

 

Then I just ask myself, "Self, would in 1981, you have purchased an accelerator board for your Atari800?"

And I always seem to answer "In a New York freakin' second!"

When I bought my first 800 in 81, I would have stuck 12 GB of RAM in it if I could have. (Not sure there was 12 GB of RAM in total back then anyway. And affording it on a sailor's pay, uh, yeah)

 

My opinion is that everything is fair game, because it was then. It's just our point of view is different.

And the comment about the old radio is absolutely true also.

No, I did not contradict myself, because I bet that radio collector /also/ has a radio with an MP3 player in it.

 

Me, I have four 800s right now. One is going to stay pretty much box stock. Another is going to get the Frankenstein treatment, because I would of in 81 had I had the money. So I guess in my case it's fulfilling the dreams I had lusting over the magazines (no, not those magazines).

I might Frankenmod an 800XL also, either that or a 1200XL.

Guess it's time to put some junk, er, stuff on eBay and finance some upgrades. Anybody want a couple Cisco 2500s?

[akator]

I think the answer applies to anything, be it an Atari or a Ferrari.

 

The moment you question if modifications have crossed the line, they have. An Atari 800 is a defined product, once modifications push those definitions too far it is no longer an Atari 800.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, evolution can bring many improvements. It just means what you are using evolved from an Atari 800, maybe even still looks like an Atari 800 on the outside.

[adam242]

(Nevermind, deleted)

Edited November 16, 2013 by adam242

[potatohead]

Lots of great responses so far.

 

I tend to base it off of simplicity and whether or not it's a plausible extension. The VBXE is technically awesome, and part of me likes that, but it's not really Atari to me. Seems a bit of a stretch for where the machine might have gone. The tech is cool though. Glad it's out there, and I know the people who built it and use it are having a good time of things. Happy days.

 

Another qualifier might be how many other people end up with whatever it is. External storage is popular. Serving files up from a PC, or fetching them via USB stick or SD card is very cool, and we all can have that with few worries. That's Atari to me. And it's Atari, because I could share experiences. Sharing experiences is kind of important to preserve the overall feel and community around these things.

 

Harmony on VCS is working that way, as an example. Most of the experience is still there, still authentic, but the extra oomph takes the machine a bit farther, and I think that makes it relevant to a few more people, while keeping it fresh for those who have been around for a while. Sort of fails the simple test once advanced code on the board comes out to play. Mixed bag, but most of us can have it, and some people can just enjoy without knowing too much, leaving the feel there, which is a lot of the attraction.

 

On Apple, if it's a card that can go into the slots that most people could end up with, that generally flies. On Atari, hardware expansions get odd. Some need under the machine work, others work on the expansion port, still others are in the cart slot... For the cartridge things, I'm game. Under the hood was being done in the time, with dual POKEY setups and such, so a lot of that works. An ANTIC + GTIA spiffed up a little might still be Atari, for example. Same colors, but maybe just add a mode or two that may well have happened back then. Problem there is starting down that road pretty soon gets to VBXE, because the tech is there. Hard call on these things. I don't know. What I do know is what I like, or that says "Atari" to me, and I sometimes won't know until I see it.

 

A positive example might be an exercise to imagine what ANTIC + GTIA 2 would have been, or maybe just a new ANTIC. Say Atari saw VIC II and did another engineering cycle to compete...

 

Maybe the color resolution gets doubled, and with that the half color clock mode goes to 640, the 160 pixel modes get to 320 pixels, and maybe some 16 color modes get dropped in... The extra DMA sucks up CPU, so they can't be used willy nilly, leaving the challenges and that "Atari feel" in there. That would be Atari to me, probably. Maybe talk to the guy who made POKEY and finish it / remove the bugs or whatever he mentioned was lacking at the time.

 

So, the machines that feature more hardware expansion options tend to have an easier time with this. IMHO, hanging some cool stuff off the SIO might say Atari too. How about an 80 column display with some graphics options? Hook that to a second display, and it's plausible and potentially useful. We all could get one and use it fairly easily too. Really for me, that's important.

 

That might be Atari to me, setup right. I could plug this into my Atari, boot a disk and go! Seems to me, that could have happened back in the day too, like it did for some machines that got spiffy graphics options. S100, CP/M, Apple, others...

 

FPGA projects are intriguing. For a long time, I just didn't think much of those. But, I'm currently running a new chip being developed on an FPGA. We don't have real silicon yet, but the FPGA feels real. So, an FPGA Atari with the most useful and popular add-ons built in might really appeal. Could put that in a case and keep the vintage look, or maybe not and just use vintage controllers and a TV display. VGA looks really nice, but looking really super nice on a VGA is easy. Much harder on a TV, and that says Atari to me. Being on a TV or high bandwidth composite monitor. Amber / green / grey. I ran my Atari on those things back then. No brainer to capture the feel today.

 

So now I have a nice DE2 board, and I'm going to explore that technology when the current project completes. The idea of making real-time circuits seems a little less abstract now and that seems like a great fit for 8 bit fans. Lots can be done on a board, schematics shared, etc... I might really get into this at some point, mostly because building actual hardware leaves one on that "nobody else has it" island, or it's expensive and hard to get something many people can get, etc...

 

I already know I don't like these, "does it all" FPGA things. I have emulation for that.

 

Emulation is a mixed bag for me. I like it for development. There are times when I miss just coding on the machine, but then I do that, and I miss all the tools that get coding done faster today on modern OSes and hardware too. So, emulation is good for doing stuff, but not necessarily experiencing stuff.

 

Disks... I don't miss the Atari disk drive much. Not sure why. I never used an Apple without a disk, but I did use an Atari with carts, cassette and a disk. Maybe that is some of why.

 

Using carts and an SIO device seems just fine. I do miss Apple disks, and I have one, and I have an external storage device too. Still will use a disk from time to time, just because. We all have those quirks. Now I have a SD card cart for the CoCo, and I like that, and I don't miss the disks because I never had one. That machine worked fast enough from cassette that's all I ended up using, because mostly all I did on it was program on the 6809 for fun. Again, quirks we all have based on experiences and things we miss or don't.

[fibrewire]

I tend to base it off of simplicity and whether or not it's a plausible extension. The VBXE is technically awesome, and part of me likes that, but it's not really Atari to me. Seems a bit of a stretch for where the machine might have gone. The tech is cool though. Glad it's out there, and I know the people who built it and use it are having a good time of things. Happy days.

 

[clipped for brevity]

 

Everything in this post is exactly how i feel, down to the level of CPLD involvement for an 8-bit Atari Flashback-esque device.

 

Fiberwire, FYI, bit-3 uses 4 layer board

 

You got me there! (but it's staying in the collection, we just won't tell anyone it's a 4-layer pcb )

[TMR]

This is always an interesting topic. And every time it comes up, the first thing I think of is "why must it be an either/or proposition?"

i think it's more about the cut-off point than a black and white thing; Coming from the C64 side of things we've got far more "strict" rules" (in quotes on the grounds that nobody's actually enforcing them and there aren't any actual rules), for example look at the level of RAM expansion use there's been over the decades despite the hardware being reasonably common.

 

For me, if it radically changes the "feel" of a machine then an expansion is basically taking over and the machine stops being "an Atari" or "a C64" or whatever, so a RAM expansion doesn't make a difference (especially with the Atari 8-bits where there are several models with different RAM capacities), speeding up the CPU does to a degree depending on how it's done or if it breaks compatibility with existing software and properly using something like VBXE is stepping over the line. That said, i'd probably let an FPGA clone pass as long as it maintained an extremely high level of accuracy; that means an 800XL with a VBXE is less Atari-ish than a DE-1 with an SIO, video and joystick ports grafted on according to my "logic" so i'm not sure how seriously anybody should take any of this paragraph...?

[AtariLeaf]

When it contains the properties of an egg salad sandwich, I believe it's at that moment that it's no longer an Atari.

[snicklin]

As above, it still has to feel like an Atari.

 

When I was a kid, all of the 8 bits were limited in different ways. I always hoped that the next cassette that I had bought would do something that "wowed" me, something that I never thought could be done on the machine, or was artistically excellent, pushing the boundaries.

 

Seeing a Spectrum game without colour clash wowed me. Seeing an Atari game that was good and didn't take half an hour to load wowed me.

 

Now with the restrictions lifted pretty much, the only thing that wows me now is when programmers do something imaginative or artistic. For example, being able to shoot animals in Grand Theft Auto V (not in real life!) is something which amazes me that you can do in a game that has nothing to do with animals.

 

Now if you lift the restrictions on an Atari, it ultimately becomes a mini-PC. And then it is neither an Atari nor a decent PC. I don't love the Atari because of it's power but because I grew up with it.

 

With new FPGA computers, I think that they're great. If they bring machines to people who wouldn't normally have used them, great. And if they enable me to play Atari software on the move, then great again. But I don't really want to see an Atari with an 8086 chip, a YM audio chip and 4096 colours, it's just not genuine.

[roland p]

For me, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..

 

So an Atari with all internals replaced is still an Atari. The original hardware defines a set of rules, and if a device complies to those rules, it is an Atari. That's it. I mean, if you rip the 6502 out of an atari and you put it in an C64, it doesn't become less C64 and more Atari.

 

I read somewhere people are emulating RF noise, colorfringing etc. I really don't need that. I would prefer RGB/component if possible (but I don't have the space for a dedicated setup...). This is where I might be contradicting myself.

 

I also like the Tomek Cartridge. This is totally not an Atari anymore, but the Hardware guy inside me thinks this is really cool. . This is where I contradict myself even more, because I prefer not to use the Harmony abilities on the 2600... Maybe I'm mental

[Subby]

So there seems to be a cutoff date to which anything after this date is no longer Atari.

I guess that would be the day 130XE was cancelled?

 

"This is where I contradict myself even more"

IMO Roland, it's impossible to contradict yourself in this thread.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Subby

[barnieg]

We are getting to the point were we need a way to prolong the life of Atari hardware, would a replacement motherboard that included vbxe, extra memory etc but with sockets for GTIA, 6502 & pokey and could be dropped in an XL or XE case still be an Atari?

[potatohead]

Oh I think so. Something like that would run and feel like an Atari for sure.