Options for flash drive. HD

[+Ripdubski]

I've been put of the Atari community for some time. Im looking to get an interface for using flash storage (SD / CF). There are several options out there and I'm a little up in the air about the best route to take.

 

IDE PLUS 2.0. I really like what I have read about this,, RTC good. SD or CF good. Do these only come naked (no case)? I want my son to use it and dont want it inadvertently shorted.

 

Atarimax MyIDE II. I like this to. Extra sram a plus, usable in reality? Are there any drawbacks to cartridge based interface? Whats different than the expansion ports? RTC?

 

Side 2. I like what Ive seen with this as well. Its encased, a bonus. RTC?

 

 

For any of them, Here is what I want to do.

1. Use it as a hard drive. Read and write from apps.

2. Portable between XL and. XE.

3. How are disk swaps handled for games that have 2 disks?

4. I want to run SpartaDos, though MyDos would suffice.

5. Needs to be easy enough for a 6 year old since my son will use one too.

 

Whats the best option for my usage needs?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Frankie]

IDE Plus - naked only, no case

My IDE II - no RTC

SIDE II - RTC yes

 

I don't recall how to swap ATR images

 

Frank

[Rybags]

I've got IDE +2 and the original SIDE cart.

 

IDE +2 gets the nod for being able to work with various media including HDD, or via cheap adaptor SD or CF. Plus inbuilt SpartaDosX, inbuilt BIOS menu with binary loader, and overall very configurable.

Downsides - is that it's bare although you could easily enough put into a case and use ribbon cable to attach to XL.

- not really easily portable among machines, PBI devices aren't really supposed to be plugged/unplugged all the time like carts.

- overall size, whether bare or cased it becomes something hanging off the machine.

 

SIDE also has inbuilt SDX and loader. Downside that it's not really as integrated from a system perspective although with Ultimate 1Meg can become a virtual PBI device which integrates more seamlessly with various DOSes.

 

Advantage that it's very portable, should be fine for kids to use.

Disadvantages - CF card somewhat expensive and can have reliability issues.

- system integration not quite as seamless as IDE +2.

 

For either, upgraded RAM is very advantageous although doing MEM.SAV function for DOSes is usually actually faster using the media itself rather than the extra RAM.

[+Ripdubski]

Thanks. I guess for ultimate portability, atarimax is the way to go, sacrificing rtc. Not a huge deal. Side seems to need ultimate 1m to be complete so that leaves the option for ide 2+ Using it externally perhaps in custom box. If i do that, its been a while, is the XL and XE expansion bus compatable? Seems like they are slightly different.

[bbking67]

There is also SIO2SD. It can do what you want, but no RTC.

[+Ripdubski]

I also want the speed gained from the cart/expanion implementations. Neglected to mention that in op.

[Frankie]

I have pretty much have all of them. IDE 2+, MYIDE I and II, SIDE I and II, Ultimate 1Mb, Incognito, Maxflash carts, MEGACart, The!cart, SIO2SD.

 

Which do I use? SIDE. It can be just a simple game and ATR loader, it has SDX, a real time clock and disk space. You don't need the Ultimate 1mb any more then any of the other options do.

 

In game loading mode you just put the cart in, use the joystick to scroll through the list, push fire and the game begins. The best part is the games can be copied into the partition on windows as it's just FAT16.

 

Want SDX? Slide a switch on the cart. SDX boots, file system is mounted, real rime clock has the date.

[+Ripdubski]

Perfect info, thx. Ill dig deeper into Side.

[+Ripdubski]

So Side 2 is basically myide 2 but with added RTC. Does side2 load atr without U1MB? I like how it can cycle through tagged atrs so that takes care of disk swaps.

[flashjazzcat]

So Side 2 is basically myide 2 but with added RTC.

Not the description I'd have ideally used, but yes - they're functionally similar, hardware wise, apart from the RTC and the fact MyIDE 2 has some RAM on board.

 

Does side2 load atr without U1MB? I like how it can cycle through tagged atrs so that takes care of disk swaps.

No, it can't load ATRs without U1MB.

[+Ripdubski]

An over simplification on my part. What is the 256k for that is mentioned on Side site?

 

On-board SpartaDOS X

Real-Time Clock

Compact Flash card slot

Switchable loader and SDX modes

Programmable "SIDE button"

256KB external flash application cartridge space

 

 

With that in mind does MyIDE load ATR?

Edited January 21, 2014 by Ripdubski

[flashjazzcat]

SIDE has a 512KB flash ROM, the lower half of which is occupied by SpartaDOS X. The upper half usually houses the SIDE XEX loader, but you can theoretically put whatever you like on it.

 

MyIDE can, AFAIK, employ a RAM-based custom OS which will handle ATRs, but a RAM-based OS obviously has limited compatibility with software. The more capable alternative there is a ROM OS replacement you fit inside the machine.

 

Basically, both interfaces require some internal mods to the Atari to provide full ATR support (SIDE requiring Ultimate's PBI emulation). IDE plus remains the only stand-alone plug-in ATR solution.

[+Ripdubski]

After reading through the long ide+ 2 thread, am I understanding that the myide and side 2 cant work as an hd on stock machines? I guess basically read only?

[flashjazzcat]

After reading through the long ide+ 2 thread, am I understanding that the myide and side 2 cant work as an hd on stock machines? I guess basically read only?

 

They can work as HDDs on stock machines, but using different methods. If you use SpartaDOS X, you can use my soft-driver with either device to provide full r/w HDD functionality in that DOS. The only thing you can't then do is boot the partitions in the normal manner. The soft-driver is the standard way of using SIDE/SIDE2 on a stock machine.

 

MyIDE provides an additional method, namely the soft-loaded OS, although this is subject to the limitations I mentioned before.

[Marius]

One benefit of MyIDE ][ is also that is has a feature that you can run ROM files. There are XEGS conversions to the MyIDE ][ format.

 

Usually this is not so interesting except for titles that uses more than 64KB in XEX form, like Karateka and Barnyard Blaster.

 

MyIDE ][ can run some ATR's ... but as Flashjazzcat already wrote: this has some compatibility issues.

 

When you are only into gaming, and you want to stick to unmodified atari, AND you want that case you mentioned, I think MyIDE is the best choice.

If you forget about the case, I think IDE+ is the most compatible on a stock atari.

But...

If you would go for a cool modification of your atari, you might want to chose SIDE 2 + Ultimate 1MB, which gives a lot of cool extra's.

 

For me personally (at this moment) IDE+ is the winner, since I want to stick to unmodified Atari computers.

[+Ripdubski]

Well then the carts are best suited for read only program/game loads?

 

So maybe this will help me understand better. Lets say i want to boot to basic, and save files/load files from the SD/CF media. What special needs to be done without modifying the machine? And how much memory is available to user at this point?

 

Same thing, but with cart like Action or Mac65 loaded from disk? Memory constraints?

 

Im thinking IDE+ 2 is my best best bet his point.

[+Larry]

@ Jon -- Am I correct in saying that if you do not use SDX, then without the Ultimate 1 MB, SIDE2 can only be used as a flash cart? It seems to me that to make it fully functional, you either must use SDX or have the Ultimate 1 MB. (?) The Ultimate 1 MB has some cool features including four flashable OS, so If you go to the SIDE2, you might consider getting them both. But, it starts getting a bit expensive, if that is a concern, and requires some soldering.

 

The MyIDE-II as Jon mentions uses the soft OS -or- if you ever desire, you can add/replace the system rom with a MyIDE rom. The latest versions of the MyBios software are great, and keep getting even better,

 

If you want the easiest solution, I'd go with the MyIDE-II. If you are planning to use SDX, then SIDE2 is fine.

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

Well then the carts are best suited for read only program/game loads?

Yep: you can do that with both without any hassles.

 

Lets say i want to boot to basic, and save files/load files from the SD/CF media. What special needs to be done without modifying the machine? And how much memory is available to user at this point?

I'll talk only about SIDE, since I don't have much to do with MyIDE (someone else can chime in about that). If I had a SIDE2 cart and an unmodified (say) 130XE, I'd boot SDX, load the SDX soft-driver, set up partitions on the CF card, then drop into BASIC. From there I'd be able to do r/w access on the hard disk. The caveat here is that the hard disk driver requires SDX to work. The reason? Because SDX boots from ROM, so this is an ideal opportunity to also load a hard disk driver from ROM.

 

Using the soft-driver, you really want 128KB at least, but in any case, SDX likes >64KB anyway.

 

Same thing, but with cart like Action or Mac65 loaded from disk? Memory constraints?

Carts should work fine using the above set-up - providing you enter the cart from the SDX prompt.

 

@ Jon -- Am I correct in saying that if you do not use SDX, then without the Ultimate 1 MB, SIDE2 can only be used as a flash cart?

If you don't have Ultimate and don't use SDX, you have no means to use the SIDE soft-driver, so you're then limited to using the SIDE loader on the cart. So you can load XEX games, etc, etc.

 

It seems to me that to make it fully functional, you either must use SDX or have the Ultimate 1 MB.

Yeah, from the point of view of conventional hard disk functionality, for the reasons I described above. In any scenario, to intercept SIO calls (and thereby redirect IO requests to your hard disk), you basically have these options:

• Register a PBI device with the OS, and bank your ROM BIOS in when an IO request is made (the IDE Plus 2.0 method)
• Put the OS in RAM and hack it so calls to SIO execute your hard disk handler code (MyIDE method)
• Put a custom OS on ROM and fit it inside the machine (another MyIDE method)
• Integrate the hard disk driver into DOS (the SIDE and MyIDE SDX driver method)
• Have hardware in the machine to simulate a PBI device connected to the system (the U1MB/SIDE method)

Regarding firmware and compatibility, I should add that it's all a matter of taste. In addition, if it's important to be able to share media between different devices (IDE Plus 2.0, SIDE, Incognito), you should consider that MyIDE uses a completely incompatible partitioning scheme and software API. Only by using the APT SDX soft-driver for MyIDE 2 can you transfer media between it and SIDE, IDE Plus, etc. Same goes for software tools, of which there are a profusion of advanced examples for the APT devices (you have FDISK 4 and everything on KMK's IDE Plus toolkit, all of which work with all the APT-compatible systems). So the choice between MyIDE and something APT-flavoured (if an exclusive choice) may also come down to whether you want to use a partition management toolchain ratified across several popular and media-compatible devices and supported by a number of "serious" tools, or something you prefer to use exclusively with the MyIDE "toolset". Edited January 21, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[+Larry]

Hey, that's a really good analysis of the methods!

-Larry

[Marius]

If you have enough money I'd say: get them all. It sounds like a stupid advice, but it is very hard to find a one-size-fits-it-all solution.

 

When you are ok with modifying your atari, and sticking to one main machine, atari life is easier. Then you could indeed concentrate on one great, if not superb, solution, which is probably indeed Ultimate 1MB + SIDE2.

 

I have atari's on several places.

1) In my hobby room

2) In the living room

3) On my vacation address (which is a caravan).

 

All these places demand for different solutions.

 

1. The hobby room

This is the well expanded atari. It doesn't move, it is only used by me, and it is used for everything: coding, gaming, connecting BBS's, administration... everything.

Since I'm the only one that uses this atari, it doesn't matter it is a little bit more complicated to use. I don't have to think of leaving the atari in the same configuration setting (so everone can understand how to use it, when it is switched on), I don't have to beware of kids or a wife who by accident erases data etc. It's an 'expert' level atari with all bells and whistles.

 

2. The living room

This is the atari that must look nice. No hobby projects, wires or ribbon cables floating around, no difficult menu's or DOS's to boot. In fact: on this one I now concentrate on one of these fabulous FLASH carts (like the 4MB and the 128MB cart). It's "read only" (not really, but for normal use yes), and is very userfriendly. The whole family understands how it works. Atari on, pick a game, press fire, and PLAY!

 

3. The vacation address

Well it is almost the same as in 2, but I want to be able to write a program there too. It also has to look nice, and it must all be small and portable. Since the environment can be extremely cold or hot, and dry and wet... I do not take my most expensive gadgets to this place. That is where the MyIDE ][ comes in hand. It can do almost anything I want. I want some coding? Well... it can... on a stock atari. I want to play games: it plays almost any game. The family wants to play? It boots with a nice and user friendly menu. It's quite perfect. And since I'm always around, I am sure they will not erase anything by accident.

 

It's too limited for situation 1, and it do enough cool things for situation 2 and 3.

 

In my case I have been using:

1995 - 2000 The Blackbox

2000 - 2003 MyIDE 1 diy cart (with MyBIOS in ROM)

2003 - 2008The Blackbox

2008 - 2010 MyIDE 1 Flash (with MyBIOS in ROM)

2010 - 2011 The Blackbox

2011 - 2013 MyIDE 1 and later MyIDE ][ (With MyBIOS in ROM)

2013 - now IDE+ 2.0

 

The BlackBox is fabulous, but too large and on a certain level too slow for what I want.

MyIDE ][ is and was fabulous, but I decided to step back to Unmodified atari's. So I could go back to Blackbox, or pick something else.

That's where the IDE+ 2.0 kicked in.... and I'm very satisfied. It's a great interface on a stock atari. Even on 64KB!

[+Ripdubski]

Thank you for the excellent info. For the cart solutions using the soft hd driver, what effect does it have on available memory?

 

Ill be using this on an unmod 130xe, but possibly on an unmod 800xl too. I love both machines but favor the XL which sounds like it may not have enough emory to do what i want. What can the MyIDE memory be used for?

[flashjazzcat]

On aesthetics alone, I'm afraid IDE Plus's lack of a case discouraged me from buying a Rev. D board. My efforts to case up the previous version (although I can usually fit a PCB into just about anything) met with limited success. But as I've said before: IDE Plus is the only commonly available plug-and-play, fully PBI-compliant hard disk solution, and functionality-wise there's little to complain about, especially now the later versions have disk rotation facilities, etc.

 

At the end of the day, any cartridge based solution is going to be somewhat hamstrung by the problem of getting the firmware into the machine. There have been many innovative approaches to getting around this problem. But eventually you sometimes end up having to open the machine up to replace the OS ROM (as can happen with MyIDE), and if you're doing that, you might as well fit an Ultimate 1MB - and this opens up a lot of other possibilities. But it's a question of cost, ergonomics, and risk (if you're unskilled at soldering).

 

Here's hoping Candle finishes SpeedDrive one day, then we'll have another APT PBI interface, but with an attractive case and a lot of other cool things on-board.

 

For the cart solutions using the soft hd driver, what effect does it have on available memory?

Honestly, you won't be able to run many applications if you have the soft-driver installed on a stock 64KB system with SDX running and some other drivers installed. You should have >=128KB to get the best out of this method. So a 130XE will be fine. When SDX and the soft-driver are running in extended memory, MEMLO remains nice and low (the soft-driver then uses around 1-1.5KB of conventional RAM).

 

What can the MyIDE memory be used for?

I guess a lot of cool things could be done with it (it resides in a tiny window in the $D5xx area), but at the moment it's used as a RAM disk, partition table store, and (AFAIK) a means of caching and running ROMs.

Edited January 21, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[+Ripdubski]

Would MyDOS lessen the memory restrictions?

[flashjazzcat]

Would MyDOS lessen the memory restrictions?

Far from it - indeed just the opposite, since SDX typically has the lowest MEMLO of any DOS. Moreover, with a DOS which doesn't boot from ROM, the question arises: how do you install the driver before accessing the hard disk? These are the reasons I never attempted to write a SIDE soft-driver for anything but SpartaDOS X.

[Marius]

Here's hoping Candle finishes SpeedDrive one day, then we'll have another APT PBI interface, but with an attractive case and a lot of other cool things on-board.

 

OMG ... not another cool gadget, I probably WANT to buy... and if your name is ProWizard your order amount is always 5 at least, but probably more around 10.

 

In my mind I see a bunch of Euro's with wings... flying away haha.

 

@topicstarter

In the end:

If you want to be 100% compatible, you'd best chose a SIO based solution, which is... like you already wrote, slower and perhaps less user friendly.

 

I have done some programming on a stock atari, with MyIDE ][ and I must say: it works rather well. In basic it works very good, and ofcourse you could always use assembler. Notice: with the MyIDE cart you can NOT use the diskversion of SpartaDos 3.2 and 3.3, since that DOS uses the same memory (under the OS) what the MyBIOS also uses.

 

For regular use (with MyDOS for large partitions, or XDOS for normal disk size images) you don't notice this memory difference in BASIC very soon, since you probably would not turn off the OS in Basic (If it is possible at all).

 

So a soft OS doesn't really eat your memory, but it uses the memory that is usually hidden.

 

What can MyIDE do on a stock, unmodified atari:

* It runs virtually any .XEX binary (even the games that use 64KB) from a FAT32 partition; so for games it is an excellent choice

* It can run most ROM games (8K and 16K without conversion, and XEGS titles are almost all converted to .R16 format)

* It can run a limited amount of .ATR images from the FAT32 loader

* It can run some more, but still limited amount of .ATR from the MyIDE system itself.

* It can boot MyDOS from a large partition

* It can run Basic titles

* It can run software that does not switches off the OS

* It can run software that uses 48K max.

 

What can't MyIDE run on a stock, unmodified atari:

* It can't run SpartaDos 3.x disk version

* It can't run 64KB titles when the MyBIOS system is running

* It won't run TURBOBASIC (which also uses the Ram under OS, that's why it won't work)

* It won't swap disks which switch off the IRQ (since diskswapping needs keyboard IRQ)

* When the atari freezes, you have to switch off the atari. It does not have a reset button -> this really s*cks; i consider this as a major design flaw in MyIDE cart. As soon as you switch of the atari, you lose ramdisk content. I hate that.

 

Although the MyBIOS Soft-OS is poor in compatibility, it is better than nothing. That is why I would prefer MyIDE ][ above SIDE in case of an unmodified Atari; although it would be possible of course if someone else would write a SIDE compatible softOS, but I don't see that happen soon.

 

Like I said before: there are always pro's and cons.

 

Another thing to take in mind is that I think that support on SIDE is better than support on MyIDE ][. The technical wizards around SIDE are really more skilled than any other in Atariland. I don't say that the support on MyIDE ][ is poor, but it is a one-man-show, while SIDE is more team-work.

 

In the end you'll always find that you need something your device doesn't have.

 

I love the swap-on-the-fly feature of MyIDE. I wished IDE+ had the same features.

I love the compatibility of IDE+

I love the case of the MyIDE, IDE+ doesn't have it.

I adore the features of the Blackbox, like the on the fly button to look into the running 6502 code (debugging)

I am a huge fan of the fabulous blue, see-through case of the MyIDE ][ interface

I am almost jealous when I think of the brilliant features SIDE 2 + Ultimate 1MB gives.

 

You see? It is a real hard choice.