+remowilliams Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Devices like the XRGB and mini don't help with the latency issues with HDTVs right? I know some TVs allow a no processing Game mode, but sometimes the latency is still noticeable. Games that require twitch reflexes (Super Mario Bros 2 (jp) or Super Smash Bros. N64) become virtually unplayable on a 100-200ms LED TV. I remember playing SMB2 with a friend on his LED TV after playing it for like 3 weeks straight on a CRT at home, and I kept complaining about the delay not knowing it was the TV itself. Please let me know if I'm wrong, I'd like to ditch the massive CRTs:D If your TV has an input to display latency issue the xrgb can't correct that, having a good display is still a requirement with the xrgb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Latency comes from image processing. Send a image that matches a set's native resolution and you avoid the tv's poor scaler ofentimes completely or at least minimize its opportunity to cause issues. So it can indeed help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) If that converter stretches everything, it would drive me nuts using it. So how do you go between pillarboxed 4:3 and 16:9 on a console like the Wii? No way for the tv to know that one game should be stretched because it's anamorphic widescreen and another should be displayed unchanged. Requires your intervention with turning stretch mode on and off on your tv as appropriate since they're identical to it. Very fair point and I do think that is an issue using VC games right? (is there not some key stroke combo you can do upon loading VC games that puts it in 4:3? I thought that was the case but don't use my wii very often). I think what I said is still true...it detects what my TV throws at it and reacts....my TV sees the PS3 (and wii when hooked up) as widescreen (for better or worse) because that is what they are set to display, and the TG-16 or SNES as 4:3. Those are the signals it is getting shown, and it detects them and displays them right. But your point is a good example of an exception I hadn't considered--though this seems to be kind of a wii specific issue is it not? I don't have a ton of 4:3 classics on PSN but they display correctly on their own right? Edited January 30, 2014 by GoldenWheels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) If your PS3 is set to a HD resolution, it sends out a native 16:9 signal by default. Any pillarboxing happens at the console end. Wii though is SD/ED and 4:3 by nature. Wii does anamorphic widescreen in supported games when it's set to 16:9. That means a 16:9 frame is compressed into a 4:3 frame which you must re-expand by enabling stretch mode on your tv. But to the tv, it still sees it as 4:3. So since VC games are 4:3 with no anamorphic mode to switch to and the Wii only sends out a 4:3 signal, you just have to have your tv display it unchanged so it's pillarboxed rather than stretched. All this requires user intervention with their tv remote and the set's display options since all the tv knows is it's receiving a 4:3 signal either way from the Wii. Edited January 30, 2014 by Atariboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) VC games are always 4:3 and what the Wii outputs is always 4:3. Wii does anamorphic widescreen in supported games when it's set to 16:9. That means a 16:9 frame is compressed into a 4:3 frame which you must re-expand by enabling stretch mode on your tv. So since VC games are 4:3 with no anamorphic mode to wwitch to and the Wii only sends out a 4:3 signal, you just have to have your tv display it unchanged so it's pillarboxed rather than stretched. All this requires user intervention with their tv remote and the set's display options since all the tv knows is it's receiving a 4:3 signal either way from the Wii. You actually may have just explained to me why the hell I couldn't get my few VC games out of stretch mode. By your explanation I believe I must have at one time expanded the picture on my TV once for one of my son's "real" wii games, and then when I went back to VC games I thought for sure the option would be within the system itself. But changing it did zip....as it was my tv that was stretching it anyway, and since my aspect/stretch options are input specific on the TV (my wii is on my upstairs TV all alone, another reason I didn't think of your point vs my set up), I never saw anything else over that input that made me realize it. I think. Thanks! Edited January 30, 2014 by GoldenWheels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGQuarterly Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I didn't read the thread, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned, but what everyone needs is a Sony PVM or BVM monitor. For those not in the know, these are CRTs that were used in professional settings like broadcast studios, editing houses, and even in certain medical environments. Built like brick shit houses, and with very high quality Trinitron CRT tubes. They also accept RGB, along with composite and s-video. Newer ones even accept component. They come in sizes ranging from less than 10" all the way up to 25". They have become very cheap on the second-hand market since the industry has switched to HDTV. If you get one that accepts all 4 of those, and then get an external tuner (or just use a VCR) for playing RF-only consoles, then you're set! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I didn't read the thread, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned, but what everyone needs is a Sony PVM or BVM monitor. For those not in the know, these are CRTs that were used in professional settings like broadcast studios, editing houses, and even in certain medical environments. Built like brick shit houses, and with very high quality Trinitron CRT tubes. They also accept RGB, along with composite and s-video. Newer ones even accept component. They come in sizes ranging from less than 10" all the way up to 25". They have become very cheap on the second-hand market since the industry has switched to HDTV. If you get one that accepts all 4 of those, and then get an external tuner (or just use a VCR) for playing RF-only consoles, then you're set! Those were the Sony RGB monitors I was referring to (couldn't think of the name at the time). The Sony PVM monitors are the best known, but there are other similar options like the NetTV monitor I use. Sometimes you can get really lucky and get a cheapish one off craigslist, but you need make sure it doesn't have any burn in or wear issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Kai Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 If that converter stretches everything, it would drive me nuts using it. So how do you go between pillarboxed 4:3 and 16:9 on a console like the Wii? No way for the tv to know that one game should be stretched because it's anamorphic widescreen and another should be displayed unchanged. Requires your intervention with turning stretch mode on and off on your tv as appropriate since they're identical to it. The converter I linked to is not stretching any images for my Jaguar or SNES. It outputs the correct aspect ratio, which you can adjust with your TV settings. I happen to run the Jaguar and SNES as widescreen because I prefer the screen to be filled, but honestly that doesn't look stretched at all. If I run 4:3 anymore I get a feeling that the screen is squished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Is there a recommendation for those of us who aren't Warren Buffet? Yeah, saving up over time then buying one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The converter I linked to is not stretching any images for my Jaguar or SNES. It outputs the correct aspect ratio, which you can adjust with your TV settings. I happen to run the Jaguar and SNES as widescreen because I prefer the screen to be filled, but honestly that doesn't look stretched at all. If I run 4:3 anymore I get a feeling that the screen is squished. Actually that is the exact same converter I'm using only mine has Monoprice's logo on it as it was cheaper through Monoprice. And I stated it was my TV that still stretches the image. My TV actually does have setting to adjust for normal/wide/ and full. But I noticed that while I can change this option it doesn't actually seem to change anything at all on the HDMI inputs. All the HDMI inputs on my TV are treated as FULL regardless of what I set the TV too. I'm not going to complain because it is a 42" LED 120hz that only cost me $235 as an open box from Best Buy over a year ago. So it is possible that the converter isn't stretching the image, it is likely my TV treating all HDMI inputs as digital and thus widescreen. If I connect the 2600 or something else through the actual COAX or when using the dreamcast on the VGA adapter I can choose the 4:3 or normal mode and it changes the screen correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) The converter I linked to is not stretching any images for my Jaguar or SNES. It outputs the correct aspect ratio, which you can adjust with your TV settings. I happen to run the Jaguar and SNES as widescreen because I prefer the screen to be filled, but honestly that doesn't look stretched at all. If I run 4:3 anymore I get a feeling that the screen is squished. Doesn't sound like you're outputting a HD signal somehow even though nothing I've seen about that converter suggests that it's even possible. Your tv shouldn't be able to adjust the aspect ratio of a HD signal. HD is natively 16:9 and the tv should always display it as such. So any pillarboxing and so on should be happening at the device end rather than the tv end since there's no way for the tv to add that after the fact since it can only display what it receives. Things like stretch mode on a HDTV are reserved for SD/ED signals that are natively 4:3 for those that prefer things to be incorrectly stretched out to fill their screen, for re-expanding anamorphic widescreen, to pillarbox 4:3 content to maintain the correct 4:3 aspect ratio, etc. That's why -^Cro§Bow^- isn't able to utilize the tv settings that normally would adjust the picture if it was a analog standard definition or 480p source since there's simply no demand for incorrectly pillarboxing 16:9 content in a 4:3 frame. They expect any pillarboxing that's appropriate to already be present in the signal being sent to the tv. That's why for a converter to be worthwhile, it needs a setting adjustment built in that will allow you to tell it that something should be pillarboxed in the case of a 4:3 game or stretched to fill your screen if it's an anamorphic widescreen game on a more modern pre HD game console. Your tv can't adjust an HD signal so the converter has to do whatever's appropriate during the scaling process. Otherwise, everything is either stretched by default or pillarboxed by default. Edited January 31, 2014 by Atariboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yeah, saving up over time then buying one. Or just play with a modern LCD TV (Walmart sold 32" for $98 on Black Friday), or procure a CRT for nearly-free, if not absolutely free. There's been recent times where I've been tempted to load up FREE CRTs but didn't, because I have so many already. These are the options for non-Warren Buffets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC-3730C Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 From all the reading I have done on this subject of LCD/Plasma/LED vs CRT, even with all the converters, line doublers, and scanline generators, CAT seems to still be the best option for old school gaming. I won't be getting rid of my 37" RGB/VGA monitor any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I don't own one myself, but a friend does, and I wouldn't play my retro systems on an LED with anything else after seeing it in action. Which is why I have a small LED and a CRT in my room. You saw the Jaguar running through one at ejagfest last year as well (well one of them, the other was RGB SCART). So at least two of your friends have one... or maybe you don't consider me a friend... in which case I'll go cry in the corner Latency comes from image processing. Send a image that matches a set's native resolution and you avoid the tv's poor scaler ofentimes completely or at least minimize its opportunity to cause issues. So it can indeed help. Truth. Avoiding a TV's own processing is key to minimising latency. The converter I linked to is not stretching any images for my Jaguar or SNES. It outputs the correct aspect ratio, which you can adjust with your TV settings. I happen to run the Jaguar and SNES as widescreen because I prefer the screen to be filled, but honestly that doesn't look stretched at all. If I run 4:3 anymore I get a feeling that the screen is squished. Jaguar at 16:9 can look really odd, but it depends on the game. I'd like to some videos but I can't locate any right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The movie purist in me is shuddering and gritting my teeth at people stretching 4:3 to fill the screen. To each their own for sure but yech! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC-3730C Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The movie purist in me is shuddering and gritting my teeth at people stretching 4:3 to fill the screen. To each their own for sure but yech! I stretch 4:3 to 16:9 on my old plasma and HDTV when watching videos with X BMW and they look fine stretched. I wouldn't with old video games since I have a 37" RGB/VGA CRT monitor, but I guess it is personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaskenLander Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 I certainly didn't expect this thread to blow up quite like it did but just wanted to pop back in and thank everyone for their thoughts/suggestions. Ultimately, I did just decide to go the cheap and easy way out and just switch my HDTV w/ a beautiful Sony Triniton 27' I bought off of Craigslist for $15.00. My retro games look phenomenal on it IMO. I'm pretty please with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I stretch 4:3 to 16:9 on my old plasma and HDTV when watching videos with X BMW and they look fine stretched. I wouldn't with old video games since I have a 37" RGB/VGA CRT monitor, but I guess it is personal preference. I think it's got to be personal pref.....but 4:3 stretched is just not what it's supposed to look like and I can't stand to see stuff squished and stretched. OAR baby! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC-3730C Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I certainly didn't expect this thread to blow up quite like it did but just wanted to pop back in and thank everyone for their thoughts/suggestions. Ultimately, I did just decide to go the cheap and easy way out and just switch my HDTV w/ a beautiful Sony Triniton 27' I bought off of Craigslist for $15.00. My retro games look phenomenal on it IMO. I'm pretty please with it. I am glad you started this thread. It is interesting to see what different display options people use for old school gaming. I just wish I could score some cheap or free RGB monitors like some people do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Yurkie Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I recently got an XRGB Mini. Then thing is absolutley amazing. Time to say good by to the CRTs. Might even give away my 25" Zenith Console. When you can get a perfect picture on an LCD with no lag and scanlines to boot, time to say goodbye to CRTs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Just wanted to post a link to the converter I bought from monoprice sometime back. The price has gone up a bit as I only spent about $43 for it at the time when I bought it. http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011406&p_id=9994&seq=1&format=1#largeimage As you can see it is the same converter Nuclear-Pacman posted only with different branding. If it helps at all..this is how most of my retro consoles are connected: S-Video or composite to JVC J-SX700 av switcher. Svideo monitor out from AV switcher to the converter I linked above. HDMI out from the converter to my 5.1 receiver. Receiver HDMI out to TV HDMI. yes..it is a lot of cables but with this setup I can run all the s-video and composite on the larger AV switcher and only have to use one input on the 5.1 receiver. All the hdmi sources on the receiver go to a single hdmi out. So in essence I have three HDMI inputs controlled by the receiver and only need one HDMI input cable to the TV. Again the images from the classic consoles are stretched on the TV but in many of the games like from the Genesis or the SMS there will be small black bars along the side that minimizes the stretching. Still isn't quite 4:3 but not full 16:9 either. Kinda hard to explain. Edited February 1, 2014 by -^Cro§Bow^- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I recently got an XRGB Mini. Then thing is absolutley amazing. Time to say good by to the CRTs. Might even give away my 25" Zenith Console. When you can get a perfect picture on an LCD with no lag and scanlines to boot, time to say goodbye to CRTs. What kind of Zenith is it out of curiosity? Anything special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Again the images from the classic consoles are stretched on the TV but in many of the games like from the Genesis or the SMS there will be small black bars along the side that minimizes the stretching. Still isn't quite 4:3 but not full 16:9 either. Kinda hard to explain. Sounds like underscan, even many modern 16:9 and 4:3 games on a console like the Wii exhibit this on a HDTV that displays everything 1:1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxpressed Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I received the $50 model today. Works just fine with composite on my Samsung 22" LCD. Haven't tested S-Video yet. My Samsung lets me set the HDMI2 input to 4:3 via the menu. Isn't it that simple, or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Sounds like you're all set. More HDTV's have this option to pillarbox HD content than I was apparently aware of. I wonder what the manufacturer had in mind since external scalers for classic consoles or pillarboxing Wii mode on a Wii U back when it always stretched itself (Since fixed with a OS update) certainly weren't it. Many like the option to make people look short and fat on their new tv, but there's no demand to make them look thinner and taller than they really are. Most any HD source that's supposed to be pillarboxed should already be pillarboxed before arriving at the tv. Handy option though to have it would seem. Edited February 1, 2014 by Atariboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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