sh3-rg Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 What's with all the hate on this thread? Some dude is in the very earliest stages of trying to program a neat 3D take on the most awesome puzzle game ever, Klax. Give him some time to figure things out. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. I'm interested in seeing how this progresses. And frankly, what's interesting to me is the 3D. There are a bazillian 2D version already out there. And I think the Jaguar is the perfect system to try this out on because clearly the earlier generation systems (SNES, Genesis) were not capable, and clearly the later-in-the generation systems (PS1, N64) were. So it's a formidable challenge on the Jaguar. If a 3D Klax had come out back in the day, I would have been very excited about it. There's no hate for the "game", no hate for vladr, no hate for people making jaguar games. But there's a dislike for meaningless claims made under emulation. See the difference? The 3D is interesting is it? Can you explain how, because I'm at a loss to see why. Klax is essentially already 3D. If the camera does not move, there is absolutely no point in generating the objects in real time when you can pre-generate them beforehand with suitable shading and anti-aliasing making them look far, far better than realtime Jaguar polygons that do not animate. Far from being a formidable challenge, it's somewhat pointless and ignores what the Jaguar was designed to do best - handle sprites. Since when do pre-rendered sprites equal real-time 3D graphics ? When the real-time 3D graphics bring nothing more to the table than a CPU overhead and worse aesthetics? There's no equivalency there. You do not have to be a 3D programmer to understand that it is completely unrealistic to expect identical level of quality in real-time 3D rasterizing compared to 2D pre-rendered stuff. But apparently you do have to be a 3D programmer to not understand that it is completely unrealistic to expect that people will want to play a game that looks worse and plays worse than the 25 year old original purely because "3D" when to them the original was as 3D as it ever needed to be. Remove the rotation? May as well just program it as if it was one of those Nintendo Game & Watches from the early 80s. A Klax demake... I like where this is going... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkoVitch Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 If you were to use my SE, triggering sounds would be very very simple, just a simple and not take a lot of time.. however the DSP will hit the bus whenever it needs to fetch sample data, this will vary based on the playback frequency, the number of voices being used etc. The amount of CPU cycles used on the DSP are irrelevant as the DSP is doing nothing but sound (and joystick and RNG) so it can run at 100%. DSP has higher bus priority than the 68K, like every other device in the system, so everything is going to be stopping the 68K whenever it needs some time on the bus. So that's the OP, and the DSP both interrupting your code. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I feel I should point out that VJ, for all its striving for accuracy, fails in one major way: it fails to take bus contention into account. On real H/W, whenever any processor touches main memory, other processors are precluded from touching it at the same time, which is why the designers gave the RISC processors their own local memory. The upshot is, that VJ makes it seem like you have all the time in the world to do everything, as the processors there never step on each other's toes leading to a false sense of speed. For emulation, this is OK as pretty much all it tries to do is run stuff that already runs on real H/W. At some point in the future, I'd like to model this somehow in VJ, but at the moment, I have other fish to fry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto1980 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It's the same trap as the Trameil era Jag. Texture map everything and drop from 30fps to 7fps because we need textures. No you don't. hahahaha lol where?? Doubledragon, dinodudes, raiden, crescentgalaxy, bubsy, zool2, themepark, syndicate, zoop, brutalsports better one, lets say phase zero, complete and good 3d action game instead of all of them together because even on snes they where mostly shit :-(( vlad, you are doing a nice job 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 hahahaha lol where?? Doubledragon, dinodudes, raiden, crescentgalaxy, bubsy, zool2, themepark, syndicate, zoop, brutalsports better one, lets say phase zero, complete and good 3d action game instead of all of them together because even on snes they where mostly shit :-(( If this this thread lacked anything it was yet another tangent to head off on ;0) I think Stephen was referring to those polygon-based games that might have prioritised graphical embellishments that made them look better in magazine stills but with the unwanted side-effect of poor frame rate in actual use. vlad, you are doing a nice job Otto gets that, even if nobody else remembers where he got his avatar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 If this this thread lacked anything it was yet another tangent to head off on ;0) I think Stephen was referring to those polygon-based games that might have prioritised graphical embellishments that made them look better in magazine stills but with the unwanted side-effect of poor frame rate in actual use. Yes, that's all I meant. Don't make the gameplay suffer in order to make it look pretty. Also, why do "real" 3D, when the illusion of 3D can be done using tile / sprite based methods and run multiple times faster, smoother, and look better at the same time? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto1980 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 exactly! better 1 supercross3D "prioritised graphical embellishments" than 3 shit 16-Bit-everyone-played-them-and-they-are-still-shit games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 exactly! better 1 supercross3D "prioritised graphical embellishments" than 3 shit 16-Bit-everyone-played-them-and-they-are-still-shit games Interesting opinion. Is it genuine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Interesting opinion. Is it genuine? I'm wondering that too. I can't see how if all four games in that scenario stink, how anyone wins. Supercross 3D was particularly disappointing, because its static looks promised one thing, but then once it was in motion it was a virtual slide show. That seems more of a travesty/lost opportunity than a mediocre 16-bit clone of a game we've played a million times before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoGeoNinja Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Didnt realise that anyone had ever, outright, felt that the likes of Raiden (especially), Theme Park or even Syndicate as "shit" games. Ah well... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I can see why people were disappointed in 16-bit style games on the Jaguar, but it's still better than 3D that doesn't work just because people expect it. Supercross 3D is a prime example of something that should not have been made. Super Burnout shows how a nicee compromise could be made. Clearly above 16-bit standards visually, but also smooth and playable. Much better than another polygon crippled game. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 but it's still better than 3D that doesn't work just because people expect it And therein lies one of the Jaguar's biggest problems with parts of it's audience. They have ridiculously unrealistic expectations of what 3D performance the machine can actually provide. Note - this situation is not helped by people providing nonsensical and completely arbitrary eleventybillion FPS 'performance metrics'... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 And therein lies one of the Jaguar's biggest problems with parts of it's audience. They have ridiculously unrealistic expectations of what 3D performance the machine can actually provide. Note - this situation is not helped by people providing nonsensical and completely arbitrary eleventybillion FPS 'performance metrics'... Ironically, there was just a discussion on the German neXGam forum where one die-hard Jaguar fan was absolutely convinced the Jaguar could have pulled of Tomb Raider ... and Quake (!!!). We're talking one game that regularly falls to under 20 fps on Saturn and PlayStation, and another that wasn't possible to port without major compromises to begin with. There will always be unrealistic ideas by some fans of any system I guess.^^ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 How about yet another XM/SGC add-on that's equipped with an ARM chip, gobs of memory and an SD card slot. All the Jag would do is act as the frame buffer, I/O and sound. Peeps could compile the ARM port of Quake and pretend it was a true Jaguar game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 There will always be unrealistic ideas by some fans of any system I guess.^^ I think the problem is we've never had what could be considered a truly AAA game from a developer who knows the real ins and outs of the Jaguar to see what it's real potential was. Instead, what's filled that void has been endless speculation, debate, and what ifs. If there truly was something that we could point to that indicated, "yes, this is pretty much what the console's potential is and not too much more," I think a lot of that speculation would dry up. For the countless systems that did have their potential clearly realized, there's never any such talk. I'm just not sure if the Jaguar will ever realize it, but who's to say what will happen in 5 - 10 years with an unexpected breakthrough here and there? Certainly it's taken at least as long for some other platforms to have homebrew creations that meet or exceed the best commercial releases than the Jaguar's close to 20 years since its commercial demise. In the mean-time, it's clear that the often baseless speculation will continue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hehe, yeah, that's what I don't understand about such add-ons either. It's okay for me as a gamer, especially if I don't have a strong attachment to system, but in general... the games running on them have little to do with the original system. That's a reason I was completely against it when some people started talking about modding the Lynx... I find it way more interesting to get the best results out of the hardware as it was intended, otherwise I could just buy a modern system. It's like the Genesis clones that have two dozen "new" games on them... all of them just running of anARM CPU, having nothing to do with the Genesis at all. I think the Jag can do more than it showed for sure; things like Phase Zero or the Atari Owl Project showed promise. But that doesn't turn it into a Dreamcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The Jaguar was meant to be a Gord or Thong shaded polygon monster. If they just stuck to that it would have avoided the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Change that to 1994 monster. Some people still think it can out perform an nvidia Titan The Jaguar was meant to be a Gord or Thong shaded polygon monster. If they just stuck to that it would have avoided the ground. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Change that to 1994 monster. Some people still think it can out perform an nvidia Titan Fuggin A. If they had Microprose on board with Masters of Orion and U.F.O. Enemy Unknown it would have smoked the other brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The Jag had few peers for it's time that could toss around sprites at the same level. Another year in the oven probably would've made a world of difference with the hardware, but, alas, it is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Fuggin A. If they had Microprose on board with Masters of Orion and U.F.O. Enemy Unknown it would have smoked the other brands. Okay, now you're really, really pushing it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I think it was the age of second guessing 3D. No one knew that Mario 64 would be the thing to clone endlessly. @remowilliams: Talkin' about the original game. Even had a PSX release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO:_Enemy_Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory DG Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Who here has beaten KLAX? I beat the Lynx version many moons ago... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 That would look at least 11-billion-ty times better with a static high colour backdrop instead of eye-jarring, jerky, horrible perspective. And it'd run a lot quicker too. Which build of H.E.R.O did you get your hands on ? I am pretty sure it wasn't this one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Who here has beaten KLAX? I beat the Lynx version many moons ago... Try beating the klax now. I hear it's becoming resistant to antibiotics! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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