Klax, Atari ST to Jaguar conversion

[Gregory DG]

I never thought it would be the sort of game that had an ending, I always thought it would just be one of those that just got faster and faster. Is there a special end of game screen or anything? or just an unsatisfying "Well done" message?

 

The original arcade showed an animation of an arcade machine sucking a player into it. The Lynx version shows the player getting sucked into his Lynx.

[BillyHW]

 

The original arcade showed an animation of an arcade machine sucking a player into it. The Lynx version shows the player getting sucked into his Lynx.

 

Has anyone actually ever finished Klax? I know there's 100 stages, but the difficulty gets to darn near impossible in the later stages.

[+CyranoJ]

Oh good, we're talking about Klax again.

 

Back to the original point of this thread, I had a (very) quick look at the ST version and it seems pretty clean code. On top of that, it all loads in one go and never accesses the disk again after that. These points make it an ideal candidate for running through my porting process (See bubble bobble/virus/buggy boy/mercenary threads) so I might give this one a go at some point, time permitting (I have to finish up a few Reboot projects first!)

 

 

Has anyone actually ever finished Klax? I know there's 100 stages, but the difficulty gets to darn near impossible in the later stages.

[VladR]

And frankly, what's interesting to me is the 3D.

 

There are a bazillian 2D version already out there. And I think the Jaguar is the perfect system to try this out on because clearly the earlier generation systems (SNES, Genesis) were not capable, and clearly the later-in-the generation systems (PS1, N64) were.

 

So it's a formidable challenge on the Jaguar. If a 3D Klax had come out back in the day, I would have been very excited about it.

I think it is obvious that whoever played any 3D jaguar game can say that 3D klax @ 60 fps is totally within the reach of Jaguar.

Meaning - using all available processors.

 

But there's zero challenge and fun in that (from coding perspective). I would never sign up for something like that, since it does not prove anything, especially considering other jaguar games have more complex 3d scenes.

 

 

What is a much more interesting question however, is whether jag's 68000 can handle Klax 3D ONLY using high-level language as C.

 

Now, THAT is a challenge. Render each pixel of a 3d polygon using a C code, not some hand-optimized ASM (been there, done that, plenty times - so no - don't see the point of doing it yet again on jag) or abusing some poor Jaguar's coprocessor...

 

 

 

It's a truly hilarious situation. There is approximately seven billion spammers in this thread, all claiming how hard-core they are in their retro hobby, yet I have not seen here a single example of a 3D game that is written purely in C and runs on a vanilla 68000.

 

And you call yourself retro gamers ? It could be funny, if only it wasn't so pathetic...

[VladR]

Remove the rotation?

 

May as well just program it as if it was one of those Nintendo Game & Watches from the early 80s.

You must have misread the forum section. This techdemo is meant for Jaguar - but you are principally correct - from HW perspective (compared to modern counterparts), jag has a roughly equivalent performance of the Nintendo Game&Watches - which is all fine & expected - as anyone can see from AngryVideoGameNerd's coverage on Atari Jaguar

 

Thanks for the suggestion, though ! When I get to coding the Trolls subsection of the Credits, I already have the first candidate (though, to be brutally fair, there is no acute shortage! ) !

[+CyranoJ]

So the challenge is to make something that you know will turn out to be a jerky, horrible, slow, unplayable mess that absolutely nobody will ever want to play.

 

Knock yourself out!

 

 

But there's zero challenge and fun in that (from coding perspective). I would never sign up for something like that, since it does not prove anything, especially considering other jaguar games have more complex 3d scenes.

 

 

What is a much more interesting question however, is whether jag's 68000 can handle Klax 3D ONLY using high-level language as C.

 

Now, THAT is a challenge. Render each pixel of a 3d polygon using a C code, not some hand-optimized ASM (been there, done that, plenty times - so no - don't see the point of doing it yet again on jag) or abusing some poor Jaguar's coprocessor...

 

 

[VladR]

I had a (very) quick look at the ST version and it seems pretty clean code. On top of that, it all loads in one go and never accesses the disk again after that. These points make it an ideal candidate for running through my porting process (See bubble bobble/virus/buggy boy/mercenary threads) so I might give this one a go at some point, time permitting (I have to finish up a few Reboot projects first!)

 

And what on Earth would be the point of recreating 137-th clone of Klax that looks exactly same as another version ?

[VladR]

So the challenge is to make something that you know will turn out to be a jerky, horrible, slow, unplayable mess that absolutely nobody will ever want to play.

 

Knock yourself out!

 

I'm not sure why you are referring to half+ of Reboot games, but that's OK.

 

So, 25 fos is suddenly horrible, slow and jerky ?

 

What about half of other Jaguar games, many of them are jerky even in 2D (where Jag is supposed to be the powerhouse) ? FlipOut comes to mind - just few basic sprites, but runs worse than my old PC ran it...

[+remowilliams]

Hahaha, funny trolling is funny.

 

Oh wait, it's not.

 

That video you provided was hideous to be polite. Please release something that folks can try out on real hardware and then everyone can take it from there.

[+CyranoJ]

Really? You're going with that? Show me *any* of the reboot games that don't run at 60fps. As for nobody wanting to play them, check the 'top 5 games' thread.

 

Please, remove the 'reboot hate spike' from your arse, mate. We had all that about 3 years ago. It was bollocks then, and its bollocks now.

 

If you'd like to read comments about non-games check the greenlight comments page for something called Deer Creek Shoot-Out.

 

And again your back with the 25fps. Like you'll ever get 25fps out of that. Please don't show us hero as an example of speed. You could clock the background fps on your fingers without a watch.

 

I'm not sure why you are referring to half+ of Reboot games, but that's OK.

 

So, 25 fos is suddenly horrible, slow and jerky ?

 

What about half of other Jaguar games, many of them are jerky even in 2D (where Jag is supposed to be the powerhouse) ? FlipOut comes to mind - just few basic sprites, but runs worse than my old PC ran it...

[JagChris]

Come on guys, lets steer away from calling each other names please? I like my thread. i don't want it locked.

 

I think it is obvious that whoever played any 3D jaguar game can say that 3D klax @ 60 fps is totally within the reach of Jaguar.
Meaning - using all available processors.

 

But there's zero challenge and fun in that (from coding perspective). I would never sign up for something like that, since it does not prove anything, especially considering other jaguar games have more complex 3d scenes.

 

 

What is a much more interesting question however, is whether jag's 68000 can handle Klax 3D ONLY using high-level language as C.

 

Now, THAT is a challenge. Render each pixel of a 3d polygon using a C code, not some hand-optimized ASM (been there, done that, plenty times - so no - don't see the point of doing it yet again on jag) or abusing some poor Jaguar's coprocessor...

 

 

 

It's a truly hilarious situation. There is approximately seven billion spammers in this thread, all claiming how hard-core they are in their retro hobby, yet I have not seen here a single example of a 3D game that is written purely in C and runs on a vanilla 68000.

 

And you call yourself retro gamers ? It could be funny, if only it wasn't so pathetic...

[+CyranoJ]

And what on Earth is the point of creating a version of Klax that runs at -7 fps, with no animation and no fun that nobody would want to play? Oh, I forgot, you aren't going to. You just came to dangle your plot and drawto example so people would go 'oh, look, Vladr the OSSUM is here!'

 

And what on Earth would be the point of recreating 137-th clone of Klax that looks exactly same as another version ?

[Gregory DG]

Has anyone actually ever finished Klax? I know there's 100 stages, but the difficulty gets to darn near impossible in the later stages.

 

Yes, I did. Was hard as heck and I took as many shortcuts as I could to get to the end (starting with the Giant "X" to warp you to level 54 I think it was.)

 

By the time you get to the last level you've already been conditioned, so it's not all that hard. Took me a few retries finish Level 100, but (if I remember correctly) some of the other levels in the 90's were harder!

[JagChris]

My cousin kept his ps2 on for something like 3 days to finish it using continues. He really likes that game.

 

 

Yes, I did. Was hard as heck and I took as many shortcuts as I could to get to the end (starting with the Giant "X" to warp you to level 54 I think it was.)

 

By the time you get to the last level you've already been conditioned, so it's not all that hard. Took me a few retries finish Level 100, but (if I remember correctly) some of the other levels in the 90's were harder!

[JagChris]

whoa, you did the X? On the lynx?

 

 

Yes, I did. Was hard as heck and I took as many shortcuts as I could to get to the end (starting with the Giant "X" to warp you to level 54 I think it was.)

 

By the time you get to the last level you've already been conditioned, so it's not all that hard. Took me a few retries finish Level 100, but (if I remember correctly) some of the other levels in the 90's were harder!

[sh3-rg]

So its coder talk. How does that disqualify what is said? Its the very point to this whether the Jaguar has been pushed its length or not. I don't understand why you would discount that.

 

OK, so you ignored the part where I pointed out what the Super BurnOut actually said and not what you said he said.

 

You made some other claims (they were similarly uncited). These are not relating to actual working code, but rather talk of "if only I had one more crack at it"... that's why kskunk's posts are important here. It feels like more should be possible, until people sit down and get balls-deep in it.

[JagChris]

How are Kskunks posts in this regard more important than someone who has actually completed a working 3D engine on the Jag? How?

[sh3-rg]

 

Yes we are all aware of what Kskunk said but it still chooses to ignore the point that others have dealt with the same kitchen of ingredients, slugged it out to the finish line and when the dust settled they stated the Jaguar wasn't finished yet. And I'm not talking about any supposed benefits of GPU in main. This is BEFORE all that. Even without it they claimed more could be had.

 

You are choosing to look at one guy who did not slug it out to the finish line. I'm looking at others who were just as brilliant and finished.

 

You seem to be a little lost in the points of discussion here.

 

It's not that you can't create a finished product, it's that you have to do substantially more than follow steps A through E of a tried and trusted recipe. And what you get out likely won't be to plan (compromises, side-effects, whatever - use your imagination).

 

This shouldn't need further discussion. The analogy was as perfect as it was ingenious.

 

BTW, who is "we"? Are you a spokesperson for a greater body of users?

 

How are Kskunks posts in this regard more important than someone who has actually completed a working 3D engine on the Jag? How?

 

I don't know how far kskunk travelled on his journey, but apparently enough to give him reason to post on the subject. Those people you mentioned and their apparent thoughts, without the direct quotes to see what they really wrote, I don't see that they have equal relevance. The results in their completed works only seek to highlight kskunk's thoughts.

[sh3-rg]

What is a much more interesting question however, is whether jag's 68000 can handle Klax 3D ONLY using high-level language as C.

 

Now, THAT is a challenge. Render each pixel of a 3d polygon using a C code, not some hand-optimized ASM (been there, done that, plenty times - so no - don't see the point of doing it yet again on jag) or abusing some poor Jaguar's coprocessor...

 

It's a truly hilarious situation. There is approximately seven billion spammers in this thread, all claiming how hard-core they are in their retro hobby, yet I have not seen here a single example of a 3D game that is written purely in C and runs on a vanilla 68000.

 

And you call yourself retro gamers ? It could be funny, if only it wasn't so pathetic...

 

If the programming aspects of this personal challenge really do excite you, the programming section would be an ideal place to write about it, possibly even even in your "blog sytle, but AA also provides actual blog is that's more suitable.

 

The hyperbole and judgement of fellow users, however, should be left at the door. That's not appropriate for any part of AtariAge.

 

And what on Earth would be the point of recreating 137-th clone of Klax that looks exactly same as another version ?

 

Ask JagChris - he created the thread requesting it.

 

Also, it wouldn't be a clone or a port, it would be the actual Atari ST game code hacked to run on foreign hardware. Herein lies the challenge with the results of a game that is known good. It's called win-win.

 

I'm not sure why you are referring to half+ of Reboot games, but that's OK.

 

So, 25 fos is suddenly horrible, slow and jerky ?

 

I know you're used to "programming" "games" via emulation, but wasn't aware that you also play games via YouTube.

 

Everything Reboot has ever created and released - 50 or 60 fps depending on the hardware region.

 

Your true intentions at AtariAge become more apparent with each subsequent post... shame.

[LinkoVitch]

 

What is a much more interesting question however, is whether jag's 68000 can handle Klax 3D ONLY using high-level language as C.

 

Now, THAT is a challenge. Render each pixel of a 3d polygon using a C code, not some hand-optimized ASM (been there, done that, plenty times - so no - don't see the point of doing it yet again on jag) or abusing some poor Jaguar's coprocessor...

 

 

It's a truly hilarious situation. There is approximately seven billion spammers in this thread, all claiming how hard-core they are in their retro hobby, yet I have not seen here a single example of a 3D game that is written purely in C and runs on a vanilla 68000.

 

And you call yourself retro gamers ? It could be funny, if only it wasn't so pathetic...

 

Erm, no, that's not a more interesting question! Why has no one done it? here's an analogy... some people like to nail their genitals to planks of wood, they think it's great.. why don't more people do that? IS EXACTLY THE SAME LOGIC!

 

If for you 68K in C is the pinnacle of coding.. why not go and do it on a system that has only a 68K.. or maybe a 68020 or 030? There is a whole raft of systems out there that only have that one CPU.. They probably have more complete C compilers too!

 

Retro gamers play games, you know, those things you haven't written yet..

 

Coders write code, for those people (my own personal take anyway), for a coder the game is in actually writing the code..

[Atari_Owl]

Weird

 

I stop by after what feels like a fairly long break and its like nothing changed at all.

 

I CAN'T believe we're still into this.

 

 

 

Science and facts will never beat out mythology and cults. Ask the Pope

 

GPU in main has but ONE use.

 

A C compiler targeted specifically to GPU in main.

 

Which doesn't exist.

 

And never will.

 

So it's useless.

 

RIP.

 

 

No.

I understand that this was a heated subject in the past with polemic on both sides but it does no good to keep that up.

It HAS uses.

But not for everyone.

 

 

 

People who know (Including AO, Linkovitch, Dr Typo, SCPCD, Zerosquare and yes, myself) have multiple times said how foolish this belief is. Yes, there are edge cases, but edge cases don't write game engines. I can't think of a single reason why anyone who follows science and logic should think otherwise and continue to believe in the untapped potential of the Jaguar GPU in main myth.

.

 

This i think is more fair.

 

For what its worth...

 

Will it fix 3D and double frame rates? No. Not unless your code doesn't double buffer and is right on the tipping point from 2 to 1 frame per draw.

Will it miraculously improve any game? No

Is it a place where one should run code which reads a lot of external data or tight loops? No

 

Is it likely to be of use to the majority of homebrew games? No

Does this matter? Surely not

 

Is it potentially quicker than the 68k? Sometimes

Can it save time instead of blitting chunks of code in and out of RISC local RAM? Yes.

Did it improve the performance of AOP? Yes.

How did I use it? I had an unrolled framework running from main which called the loops which ran in local This was done in order to keep speed critical code in local, and without needing to swap in/out code

 

Did i invent it? I never claimed that, I'm expect people discovered it before me. I just wasn't aware of that. And Gorf DID narrow down the rules better than me.

Why didn't i talk about it before SMAC? Because the Jaguar community has always been extremely hostile with people willing to tear down anything one might do. With something as delicate as this, talking about it was asking for trouble. I have had people express a wish that my jaguar equipment explode in my face. I saw no benefit to exposing myself to that.

 

Has the sh**storm that it STILL generates not proven me TOTALLY correct about that?

 

 

PLEASE can we let GPU in Main rest in the middle ground where it belongs? An interesting curiosity with some potential uses.

 

NVM i dont know why i posted this, if people haven't listened to me in the last 6 years there's no reason why they would start now.

 

Oh and what the heck happened to JS2?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Atari_Owl

[swapd0]

Can it save time instead of blitting chunks of code in and out of RISC local RAM? Yes.

How did I use it? I had an unrolled framework running from main which called the loops which ran in local This was done in order to keep speed critical code in local, and without needing to swap in/out code

 

Swap in/out? WTF! you only need to swap in code (upload if you prefer), never swap out.

 

 

Some years ago I coded a 3d engine for the Atari ST, I hope to have some free time to setup a dev environment and port it to the jaguar first, and rewrite some parts with the GPU. I think that you can fit all 3d math, polyroutine and scene transversal in the GPU ram.

[+CyranoJ]

Nailed it

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

 

How did I use it? I had an unrolled framework running from main which called the loops which ran in local This was done in order to keep speed critical code in local, and without needing to swap in/out code

 

 

[Atari_Owl]

Swap in/out? WTF! you only need to swap in code (upload if you prefer), never swap out.

 

 

Some years ago I coded a 3d engine for the Atari ST, I hope to have some free time to setup a dev environment and port it to the jaguar first, and rewrite some parts with the GPU. I think that you can fit all 3d math, polyroutine and scene transversal in the GPU ram.

 

 

Yes OKAY i'm not copying it out, it was just a turn of phrase to mean that some code was going in to replace other code and then the other was coming back. Thats all.

*sigh why bother?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Atari_Owl

[LinkoVitch]

 

 

Yes fair point im not copying it out, it was just a turn of phrase to mean that some code was going in to replace other code and then the other was coming back. Thats all.

 

Bloody hell! long time no hoot

 

I'd imagine there may be situations where state variables stored in local may need to be swaped in and out, though, I fill loads of DSP RAM with handy vars

 

You must have subconsciously known to come back, this thread has meandered a fair amount, mostly been quiet recently on here.

 

Hope things have been good with you squire