C64 RPGs

[+wongojack]

Unfortunately I don't know if my ROM is PAL or NTSC. I've set up VICE as NTSC. If it is a PAL ROM, will it run too fast, or crash or what?

 

In my experience, the ROMs I find are almost always PAL. But VICE seems to handle them fine regardless. Framerates on a computer monitor are handled differently than your old tube TV/Monitor, so it doesn't really matter.

 

The "warp" shortcut key is your friend. I usually press it during loading and press it again to play the game. I'm sure you've figured that out since you mentioned warp.

[BillyHW]

Yeah, but if it's a PAL ROM and I have VICE set to NTSC, does that mean it will run too fast or what?

[BillyHW]

Okay, so I'm a little bit surprised by my first experience with ToA, and having to give commands just to move forwards or turn. It's a bit odd. So far I'm liking Sword of Fargoal better, where you can just move normally. Also, I'm not sure how your position relative to a monster affects your ability to battle. Does he actually have to be touching your sword? Does the direction you're facing matter? Or does only pixel contact matter? What if there's not contact with the pixels?

[IainGrimm]

Another one that is superb on the C64 is Times of Lore by Origin Systems, it is top down view ARPG style but similar kind of to the Ultima series also done by Origin. It is much easier to get into though than the Ultima games.

 

http://www.lemon64.com/?mainurl=http%3A//www.lemon64.com/games/details.php%3FID%3D2662

 

 

Attached image of my copy of the game, have the map and everything with it

 

[+wongojack]

Yeah, but if it's a PAL ROM and I have VICE set to NTSC, does that mean it will run too fast or what?

Here is where my technical knowledge kinda runs out, but I believe that the monitor you are using for your computer runs at a higher FPS than both an NTSC or PAL TV. The reason there is a speed difference for things like Nintendo games on PAL is that the refresh on the screen was tied to sprites moving in the game (something like that anyway), so Samus appears to move more slowly in PAL because the PAL version of the game was not redone to adjust the speed to the new framerate - only the color etc.

 

However, VICE (or maybe just windows) handles this for you because your computer display is refreshing already at a higher FPS and it must emulate the true speed of the game. This is where the emulator bitheads chime in and explain this better, but I think one of the primary things the emulator does is remove the relationship between refresh and redraw of the objects involved in the game. The redraw is timed to make it more true to the original hardware and it doesn't care about the refresh or even resolution of your display.

 

So my point is that I'm not sure it matters what you set the value to, the emulator is making all kinds of adjustments for you anyway. That being said, they put the option in there for a reason, so it must do something. I think it is mostly to get the color right.

[108 Stars]

I hve something to add too. I just read the latest copy of German Retro Gamer magazine with a big C64 feature. They mention that some NTSC games won't load on PAL machines due to some very delicate timing issues in the loading process.

 

According to the article, games from Origin, SSI and Activision work almost always.

Games from Epyx, EA and Interplay have a 50:50 chance.

And Accolade games practically never run on PAL.

 

This info may be obsolete via emulation, and it is from a PAL user standpoint anyway, but if you come across any game that doesn't run as you think it should switching to PAL might help.

[carlsson]

Despite having used C64 for 25+ years, I am not 100% sure about all the differences between PAL and NTSC without looking them up in detail, but as far as I know these are the important ones:

 

The raster interrupt on a PAL machine runs 50 times per second, on NTSC 60 times per second. This is mainly noticable when it comes to music routines that are synchronized to the raster so the playback routine is called once per screen refresh. PAL musics play 20% faster on a NTSC computer, NTSC musics play 16% slower on a PAL computer. Also I think the frequencies generated by the SID chip may depend on this 50/60 Hz thing, so some musics may sound slightly out of key, but I'm not entirely sure that is an issue.

 

PAL has 312 raster lines and 63 cycles per line, while NTSC only has 263 lines but 65 cycles per line. It means PAL computers have about 15% more processing time per screen, but on the other hand you get more screens per second on NTSC. Routines that are tightly timed to the raster line, e.g. changing screen modes, repeating sprites, opening borders and so on may flicker or not work at all on the wrong type of video chip, in particular if the program waits for a raster line that never occurs on NTSC. I remember that e.g. some of Epyx' games like Pitstop II got delayed by a few months for the European release due to they had to reprogram parts of it as it uses raster tricks for its split screen.

 

When it comes to loading programs, I think it relates to tape routines, which just like the CPU clock depend on the 50/60 Hz. I believe while NTSC C64 nominally run at 1.00 MHz, PAL ones run at 0.98 MHz or so. Turbo loaders probably choke on such small margins. For floppy disk games, I'm unsure if the same issue occurs as the floppy drive decodes the raw data first. Perhaps there are turbo loaders timed to the raster or so that would have similar issues.

 

In any case, the issues should be relatively small and few. As long as you run in emulation, you can also configure VICE to run in PAL mode, and there would no longer be any obvious issues at all.

[landgraf]

When it comes to loading programs, I think it relates to tape routines, which just like the CPU clock depend on the 50/60 Hz. I believe while NTSC C64 nominally run at 1.00 MHz, PAL ones run at 0.98 MHz or so. Turbo loaders probably choke on such small margins. For floppy disk games, I'm unsure if the same issue occurs as the floppy drive decodes the raw data first.

That depends on whether the loader in question was designed to be rather robust or rather fast :-)

 

The CPU of an NTSC-C64 is slightly faster than that of the floppy drive and the CPU of a PAL-C64 slightly slower. The original ROM data-transfer-routines can deal with that, but many commercial games use their own loader code instead to speed things up (and make copying the disks more difficult :-)), and part of the speedup is often achieved by doing less handshakes and sending longer data bit-sequences.

 

So if the loader code doesn't run at the clock-speed it was designed for bits may get lost/wrongly interpreted if the sequence between handshakes is too long. No idea how robust Jiffy-Dos is in that regard, but if the game uses it's own loader it will be bypassed anyway.

[MantaNZ]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm starting to develop for C64 and thought a simple JRPG could be a good idea. Been playing Phantasy Star and the C64 needs something like that!

 

Anyone reckon there'd be any interest?

Edited January 25, 2015 by MantaNZ

[cncfreak]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm starting to develop for C64 and thought a simple JRPG could be a good idea. Been playing Phantasy Star and the C64 needs something like that!

 

Anyone reckon there'd be any interest?

I think that would be a big HELLZ YEAH. Just make sure to make it compatible with the NTSC C64's.

[MantaNZ]

Yeah I'd need to look into that. I only have PAL systems to test but I'm guessing emulators can help there.

 

I'm currently only learning assembly programming but it seems pretty straightforward (I've been coding games for a while, just not asm) so shouldn't take too long to get to grips with the machine. I figure a JRPG is a good place to start as, programming-wise, it'll be relatively straightforward. Just a lot of stuff to keep track of an loads of art assets and story! Lol.

 

My main goal is to make commercial releases for old systems, particularly C64 and Mega Drive

[high voltage]

The Magic Candle, a great overlooked RPG on C64.

 

I hate JRPGs they destroyed the whole genre. I am just playing my way through Earthbound on SNES, and you play as kids with baseball bats? How stupid is that?

 

Also good: Alternate Reality both episodes, but to tell you the truth, they're better played on A8, forget the C64 versions

Edited January 26, 2015 by high voltage

[Bill Loguidice]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm starting to develop for C64 and thought a simple JRPG could be a good idea. Been playing Phantasy Star and the C64 needs something like that!

 

Anyone reckon there'd be any interest?

 

I'm sure there'd be interest, and new games are always welcome regardless, but I've always preferred proper Western-style computer RPGs on computers to Japanese-style console RPGs on computers. There's actually a game called "Lawless Legends" being concurrently developed for both the Apple II and C-64 that is firmly in the former camp, kind of in the style of The Bard's Tale. That to me is where vintage computers shine.

[+wongojack]

I hate JRPGs they destroyed the whole genre.

 

That might be a bit more extreme than my own personal opinion, but I would probably agree with your reasons.

 

Make Bard's Tale 4 for us - now THERE would be some interest. [i've never played Dragon Wars which apparently started as BT4.] You'd have to call it something else of course. Anyone know if this has been done by another homebrewer?

 

Edit: https://archive.org/details/msdos_Dragon_Wars_1990

 

Link to DOS version of Dragon Wars running on internet archive

[Bill Loguidice]

 

That might be a bit more extreme than my own personal opinion, but I would probably agree with your reasons.

 

Make Bard's Tale 4 for us - now THERE would be some interest. [i've never played Dragon Wars which apparently started as BT4.] You'd have to call it something else of course. Anyone know if this has been done by another homebrewer?

 

The Bard's Tale Construction Set more or less achieves the same result (unlimited future The Bard's Tale games), though it is of course only available on the Amiga and PC. As mentioned, Lawless Legends is taking more than a little inspiration from The Bard's Tale design, but is an old west, not fantasy, setting.

Honestly, I was never the biggest fan of such games, but I'll play them. For me, games like Phantasie that weren't strictly first person, saw more favor with me. Of course, mixed mode games, like Pool of Radiance, were undeniably brilliant.

[high voltage]

 

That might be a bit more extreme than my own personal opinion, but I would probably agree with your reasons.

 

Make Bard's Tale 4 for us - now THERE would be some interest. [i've never played Dragon Wars which apparently started as BT4.] You'd have to call it something else of course. Anyone know if this has been done by another homebrewer?

 

Actually, I am silently enjoying Earthbound as silly as it is, even if one of my companions is called Poo.

[BillyHW]

The Magic Candle, a great overlooked RPG on C64.

 

I hate JRPGs they destroyed the whole genre. I am just playing my way through Earthbound on SNES, and you play as kids with baseball bats? How stupid is that?

 

Also good: Alternate Reality both episodes, but to tell you the truth, they're better played on A8, forget the C64 versions

 

Do you even hate sushi and teriyaki high voltage?

[MantaNZ]

Funnily enough, JRPGs are the only RPGs I like at all. I haven't played many RPGs, I'll admit, but some of my favourite games have been Phantasy Star, Pier Solar and Shining Force 2

[Bill Loguidice]

Make Bard's Tale 4 for us - now THERE would be some interest. [i've never played Dragon Wars which apparently started as BT4.] You'd have to call it something else of course. Anyone know if this has been done by another homebrewer?

 

Well, here's your Bard's Tale 4, though we'll see how much it's like the originals: http://kotaku.com/brian-fargo-revives-another-interplay-classic-with-the-1681575483

[high voltage]

 

Do you even hate sushi and teriyaki high voltage?

I eat nothing with a heartbeat, I'm not a barbarian, and don't even get me started on Japanese animal abuse.

Anyways, sticking to Japanese gaming, I like Sony PlayStation, Japans greatest console.

Edited January 26, 2015 by high voltage

[Lost Dragon]

Another vote here for:

 

Times Of Lore and Master Of Magic.

 

Even if you don't get on with the games themselves, the SID music in both is simply superb.

[MantaNZ]

I eat nothing with a heartbeat, I'm not a barbarian, and don't even get me started on Japanese animal abuse.

Anyways, sticking to Japanese gaming, I like Sony PlayStation, Japans greatest console.

 

Neither do I. The heartbeat is well and truly gone before I stuff that delicious meat in my gob

[telengard]

My favorites are Ultima III and IV, highly recommended. III will always be my favorite. GREAT music in that one. I've started playing Ultima V on my C64 but it is slow going...

Edited January 30, 2015 by telengard

[high voltage]

Ultima V needs a C128 for fast gameplay

[Great Hierophant]

If you want CRPGs from the 1980s, the C64 has just about every one. It has more of the major games than just any other 8-bit machine, including perhaps even the venerable Apple II. All the majors can be found on the machine with the exceptions of Wizardry IV and some of the truly ancient Dunjonquest games and a few obscure games. Of course, virtually none of them have been ported to EasyFlash or SD2IEC. So in addition to finding working images, you have to endure loading times.