Which modern storage solution?

[+Ripdubski]

And don't get me wrong, I like the MyIDE ][ for what it is and what it does. I've been using it. I just prefer Sparta. I don't really want to flash the cart though, and I won't mind having two different ones use for say two different purposes, and for two different people.

[Marius]

But you still can use Sparta even without flashing it. Just take the ROM from Fjc site and put it on your fat32 partition and you are done.

[candle]

Marius, about your list (rom)

there is no single title of game, could you name just few instead of productivity software?

list for games that would require atr to work or be fully functional would also be nice - it would help me to visualize scale of this issue, wouldn't you agree?

[flashjazzcat]

Yet another adage: jack of all trades, master of none. I understand Marius wanting all solutions to be as good as they can be, but the developers will be running around in circles indefinitely if we try to make each device all things to all men (or even one or two men). xxl mentioned what would amount to API documentation: I know of none for MyBIOS, but with SIDE (alone, or with Ultimate), you get a documented API supported by a detailed partition table specification which is common to three of the most popular hard disk solutions currently available. Of course an API does not the best interface make, but you need to consider these things too when choosing what to purchase, especially if you're a developer.

 

Of course it would be ideal if there was one device which boasted the best API, the best tools, the best facilities, the best hardware, and emulated every cartridge type, was backwards compatible with every other device, handled every ATR, ran every game, etc, etc. Oh and it needs to be cheap, too - nearly forgot that - so Ultimate and SIDE2 are probably out of the picture. Hopefully the development fairies are busy working on precisely this mystical product as we speak, then.

Edited March 3, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[candle]

i know perfect way out: burry your atari and use altirra - it can't get cheaper, and runs everything you name it!

[Marius]

Marius, about your list (rom)

there is no single title of game, could you name just few instead of productivity software?

list for games that would require atr to work or be fully functional would also be nice - it would help me to visualize scale of this issue, wouldn't you agree?

 

I mentioned Eastern Front. And for me is it rather important that I can run games on ROM for memory reasons.

 

But I don't understand one thing. I thought MyIDE had 'the name' being a game-interface, and SIDE not particularly for games? So I ask for ROM compatibility for SIDE, and now I have to name games? While MyIDE is fully capable of doing all those productivity things too?

 

I'm not into a vs thread. I have all these devices here, and I appreciate them all, and I love using my atari. In fact: I (almost) ever use emulating, so that is why I search for the best solution for the real thing. User comments are very valuable, and I'm not asking stupid things, although people who do not work with their atari like I do, might consider my wishes as dumb.

 

I appreciate your work for the a8 community a lot, and I think your Ultimate 1MB upgrade is one of the best upgrades ever for this computer. But on my Atari way I realized I am especially interested in unmodified/original atari's, so I started looking for the best solution for these Atari's. At this moment my #1 choice would be IDE+ 2.0 … indeed it does not emulate ROMS, but it still has a cart port, so while IDE+ is hard drive interface, I can combine it with rom on cart.

 

If you can add ATR compatibility to SIDE on stock Atari, that would be very interesting, and I would really enjoy using it.

When I read your comments about software improvement for SIDE, I thought: ah perhaps you could let the SIDE act like 8k/16K rom. Sorry if I misunderstood that.

 

I'm not so interested in games compatibility. For that I -indeed- have already better alternatives.

[Marius]

Yet another adage: jack of all trades, master of none. I understand Marius wanting all solutions to be as good as they can be, but the developers will be running around in circles indefinitely if we try to make each device all things to all men (or even one or two men). xxl mentioned what would amount to API documentation: I know of none for MyBIOS, but with SIDE (alone, or with Ultimate), you get a documented API supported by a detailed partition table specification which is common to three of the most popular hard disk solutions currently available. Of course an API does not the best interface make, but you need to consider these things too when choosing what to purchase, especially if you're a developer.

 

Of course it would be ideal if there was one device which boasted the best API, the best tools, the best facilities, the best hardware, and emulated every cartridge type, was backwards compatible with every other device, handled every ATR, ran every game, etc, etc. Oh and it needs to be cheap, too - nearly forgot that - so Ultimate and SIDE2 are probably out of the picture. Hopefully the development fairies are busy working on precisely this mystical product as we speak, then.

 

For me it does not need to be cheap. I prefer always the best quality, gold plated contacts and all that. But indeed: for me is the fun to get further on a8, and that's why I am giving all these user reports and wishes. And again: for me is not an issue that I need Ultimate 1MB (I have around 15 of these U1MB interfaces) but I concentrate on unmodified atari; because that is the fun for me.

 

And just for your pace I repeat that SIDE+ U1MB is one of the best combinations you can make (u1MB can carry my 8KB Synassembler, so I don't need cart support then)

[+Larry]

From a hardware standpoint, is it possible to run as a rom from the s2? I know it is easy from the Myide-II so long as the rom is 8k. 16k must be modified as are banked roms. I should add that I don't do games -- productivity only.

 

Larry

[Marius]

From a hardware standpoint, is it possible to run as a rom from the s2? I know it is easy from the Myide-II so long as the rom is 8k. 16k must be modified as are banked roms. I should add that I don't do games -- productivity only.

 

Larry

 

MyIDE ][ do both 8K and 16K without any hacking. standard 16K roms are put in $8000 - $BFFF and act like 'real cart'

XEGS roms are only slightly patched. The banking is compatible.

[candle]

still no list, thus I'm waiting

for me, side loader was though of as a tool every one could use - it should be intuitive, work fast and allow to load any executable from fat/fat32 partition to Atari

if there are some titles that would be nice to have supported - I'm listening

if this is just complaining for the fun of it - well, there are other projects I could work on

 

so, rom/atr support is important only when there is a list of games one could give me to support that thesis

if not, for productivity stuff there is u1mb with side combination that gives the best way out there is, and I would happily read arguments that is not the case at all

 

we all love a good laught

[Marius]

if this is just complaining for the fun of it

 

Did you read anything I wrote about this at all? Do you think I'm complaining for fun? If you really think that, you must be really insecure about SIDE.

 

The reason I bought SIDE finally was because a certain amount of people kept insist that this was the very best choice (compared to MyIDE). So I wanted to see that for myself. I spend hours testing for FJC, and I dug up really a few serious issues, which FJC all could fix (many thanks again Jon!) ... I am very excited about SIDE with U1MB. So that is not the discussion.

 

The topic starter (who probably has left already posts ago) is interested in a solution for his 65XE, without U1MB, and he does not want to mod anything to his Atari.

 

So I brought up that MyIDE does do ROMS, which makes a difference, since he has only 64KB, so with ROMS he can do more, than just running XEX files, who sometimes need more than 64K. This is already a valid reason for me to go for ROM compatibility. Obviously not for you, but then it is end of discussion already here in a thread for someone who asks for a solution on his 64K computer (!!!)

 

For me there is more than games on atari, so I really don't see a reason why I should give you a list. I am not going to repeat myself. I have illustrated several reasons, and I don't think in terms of games of productivity; I think in terms of compatibility. None of my reasons seem to be valid for you. Well I don't care, I already have enough working solutions for me.

 

If you read my posts this time (in stead of only looking for a list) you'll read that I'm really enthusiastic about everything you created, and that I'm expressing enough appreciation for all those things you did for a8 scene, but that I'm -as an atari only user- have a few requests, that are not only interesting for me, but interesting for the whole project.

 

You are the one who reacts like you are stung by a bee. Not me. What will I win with a more compatible SIDE? You instead could improve your project. So you could take the chance to make your SIDE better, which will be interesting for (future) owners.

[candle]

Insecure?

Read all?

 

What is obvious, is that you're now making a personal attack on me, and I really don't see a point of why or what for - I was asking politely about list of rom titles that this feature would be crucial to, you gave none (except for productivity software, that also one could question)

I really don't come here to read how good I am, or about feeling others might have while using some kind software, but solely because I would like to improve the code of side-loader and for that I would like to have a list of titles, that would gain on me doing this at all

this is tremendous work to do for a single person with limited time, so thus I need to judge whether it is as necessary as you describe it is, or this is just limited to few titles because all remaining ones can be found in form of xex files

 

so, is atr and rom file support as important as you describe it to be, or is it not?

I'm simply asking for a list to see a scale of this issue

side was meant for gamers, if someone would like productivity stuff - there is a switch for sdx mode, and if not - u1mb

[Marius]

@Candle

 

Sorry, but I interpreted your comment about the complaining for fun as a personal attack. I am not into attacking anyone.

 

For now a small list of games.

 

Eastern Front - SAVE/LOAD feature

Karateka on 64K atari (there is also an ATR available)

Barnyard Blaster on 64K atari

Flight Simulator

Summer Games (or ROM version, or disk version that can swap disks)

 

I guess it is not possible to make ATR so compatible as with U1MB (I mean: loading ATRs that uses OS RAM).

 

Next to this list, come my productivity tools.

[candle]

easter front would go with any dos?

[Marius]

easter front would go with any dos?

 

Not tested. I always test it with Dos 2.5

If you want me to I could test it soon.

[candle]

not in a fire, but if it works from any dos, and requires just basic file io, there are fair chances it works already (minus save support, since this is not implemented yet)

longer list would be of use here

[Marius]

Hi Candle,

 

Are you also interested in games (on ATR) from which it would be great if they would run, but probably are impossible, or is that not what you are looking for?

 

Greetz

Marius

[+CharlieChaplin]

Afaik,

 

the XE game cart "Gato" also has a save-option... if there is a drive connected and a DOS in that drive.

 

-Andreas Koch.

[flashjazzcat]

Regarding productivity (since I'm no gamer): remarkably, I was somehow able to locate a healthy variety of assemblers, compilers, text editors, sector editors, etc, which all worked perfectly well with SDX and the soft-drivers when the SDX soft-driver was just about the only solution generally available (prior to Ultimate PBI and IDE Plus, and when MyBIOS didn't work with SDX). Moreover, the (under-utilised) external cart ROM of SIDE remains available when the device is used stand-alone, so there's 256KB to fill with a real (as opposed to emulated) external cartridge, which can be launched via the "CAR" command in SDX. Perhaps some logic/mapping augmentations could be made there, so that this largely unused ROM space could play host to a number of cartridges with various mappings, all runnable from the SpartaDOS X command line (and if the use of SDX remains objectionable in such circumstances, I simply throw my hands up in dismay).

 

...this is tremendous work to do for a single person with limited time, so thus I need to judge whether it is as necessary as you describe it is, or this is just limited to few titles because all remaining ones can be found in form of xex files...

This. The "issue" needs to be appraised carefully, because it may simply be a collection of corner-cases which will nevertheless consume a great deal of energy to address, and all in the vain hope of silencing criticism a) when criticism b) waits just around the corner.

Edited March 4, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[+Larry]

Hi Jon-

 

"Moreover, the (under-utilised) external cart ROM of SIDE remains available when the device is used stand-alone, so there's 256KB to fill with a real (as opposed to emulated) external cartridge, which can be launched via the "CAR" command in SDX. Perhaps some logic/mapping augmentations could be made there, so that this largely unused ROM space could play host to a number of cartridges with various mappings, all runnable from the SpartaDOS X command line (and if the use of SDX remains objectionable in such circumstances, I simply throw my hands up in dismay). ;)"

 

Just out of curiosity, is this external cart ROM of SIDE documented somewhere? The manual mentions that it has it, but nothing else that I found that explains how to use it. Unimplemented feature? This largely gets to my question about using roms with S2.

 

Can you elaborate about your idea of using SDX to load roms? Sounds like a good feature to me if it is available and generally works for a large number of carts. Of course, I'm interested in things like OSS carts, etc. since the cartridge slot is no longer available.

 

BTW, hope your last sentence is not directed at me...

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

Just out of curiosity, is this external cart ROM of SIDE documented somewhere? The manual mentions that it has it, but nothing else that I found that explains how to use it. Unimplemented feature? This largely gets to my question about using roms with S2.

I don't think it's documented, and I doubt such a document would contain many words. I'm talking about the upper 32 banks of the flash ROM. AFAIK, they work in exactly the same way as the lower 32 banks of the flash ROM. They're bank-switched using the banking register (0xD5E0 for SIDE1, 0xD5E4 for SIDE2???).

 

Can you elaborate about your idea of using SDX to load roms? Sounds like a good feature to me if it is available and generally works for a large number of carts. Of course, I'm interested in things like OSS carts, etc. since the cartridge slot is no longer available.

Well, you would take your ROM, change the banking scheme to use the SIDE base register, and flash it to the upper 32 banks. You then type "CAR" in SDX to run the external cart. Most carts work this way under SDX (refer to the SDX manual). Any cart-based application which supports DOS has a fighting chance of working with SDX. There may be banking caveats to consider (Candle will know), since I can't recall whether the external cart space has a base register separate to the SDX ROM. If not, the cart's banking might upset SDX when the latter needs to enable its library, or vice versa: SDX might change banks unbeknownst to the cart application.

 

A better solution would probably be some way to flash a lot of different (unaltered) cart images with different banking schemes and let the CPLD handle the banking. This way you could have MAC/65, Basic XE, etc, all on the external cart, but how would you choose which one gets run when you type "CAR"??? I'll leave this to greater minds... and I'm just thinking aloud here. I don't want to create extra work for Candle, just as I'm sure he doesn't want to generate extra work for me... ahem.

 

I was quite interested in using the upper ROM space in SIDE for the GUI (assuming I'm ever allowed to get back to that) until it became apparent that the external cart has to be disabled (for various reasons) when the Ultimate PBI is activated. But ROM space in Ultimate itself naturally makes up for that, and of course when SIDE is used stand-alone, those upper 32 banks are free for use (although you'll lose the SIDE loader).

 

BTW, hope your last sentence is not directed at me...

 

Not at all, but you're free to recognize yourself in the description if you wish. I'm talking about those who say "it'll be perfect if you just add this, and this, and this", and when it is all done, still complain. But I realize this is human nature, and something one buys into (wittingly or otherwise) when commencing development of any product with a reasonably wide circulation.

Edited March 4, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[+Larry]

"

Not at all, but you're free to recognize yourself in the description if you wish. I'm talking about those who say "it'll be perfect if you just add this, and this, and this", and when it is all done, still complain. But I realize this is human nature, and something one buys into (wittingly or otherwise) when commencing development of any product with a reasonably wide circulation."

 

No, I don't see myself in that description.

 

However, I firmly believe that all products should be clearly described as to what the user can expect so there are no misunderstandings in purchase. Also, documented as to how to use the product, including clear installation instructions (if needed). Features that are not implemented or will be implemented later should be described as such.

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

However, I firmly believe that all products should be clearly described as to what the user can expect so there are no misunderstandings in purchase. Also, documented as to how to use the product, including clear installation instructions (if needed). Features that are not implemented or will be implemented later should be described as such.

Quite so. I also think I should get breakfast in bed every morning and win the lottery at least twice a year.

 

But seriously, the allusion here appears to be towards false representation of SIDE2 and what it does. If you elucidate, I'm sure the OEMs will be more than happy to respond. It's been made pretty clear what SIDE did and didn't do from the moment of its announcement.

 

And regarding documentation; I'm getting echoes of the time one user, having failed to successfully install equipment from the same hardware designer, took it upon himself to pillory the product on the basis of what he perceived to be poor installation and usage instructions. This seems to be a convenient Achilles heel when reason has elsewhere been exhausted, but at least that user had the gumption to sit down and write his own installation guide (although, I suspect, not so much to ease the workload of the already busy developers, but to position himself as somehow pivotal to the overall success of the project).

 

Nevertheless, you might find some (recently updated) documentation on my website pertaining to drivers and such like, although my supposition was the no-one reads it. Of course, it's usually the case with these projects that the desire to read documentation only arises when it's not there.

 

As for features not implemented: I will remind Candle to polish his crystal ball in future. Such features as Ultimate PBI support not being considered at the outset, it's nevertheless remiss of us not to have written a clear exhaustive statement of every bit of development which might possibly occur at some point in the future. From my point of view, it'll be amazing if anything is "implemented later", given how what's been implemented already seems to be going down.

 

Perhaps you've taken offence at the "serial complainant" thing, but as I say, I can no more prevent your thinking something was aimed at you than fathom why you might have thought so in the first place. If someone says "I don't like fat guys" and I say "I hope you don't mean me", then the implication there is that I'm worried I might be fat.

[+Larry]

Your words, not mine.

 

-Larry

[Marius]

We have had a (hard) discussion before about documentation. In non-atari life most of the time documentation is written by people who are not much involved by the development of the hardware/software. The document-writers are people who are skilled in writing such a thing. Writing a clear documentation (in fact: teaching the user how things work) is something real different. I think a lot of existing fabulous devices/upgrades/gadgets for atari 8bit could use a much better documentation.

 

And I think some people here should understand that the information users provide about their wishes and user-experience is valuable. Even when you disagree for 100%. When nobody expresses their wishes or comments (or even criticism) about a product, how are developers then supposed to know how improve or fix?

 

I think some people will think twice before they post a comment about SIDE ever again. And whether you like it or not, that is a loss, since you will not get that information you'll need so badly. Unless people create devices/software only for their own use.

 

I must say that Jon was the only one so far in this project who really invested days of his time to go after a few of my wishes. And he succeeded. And we both concluded that thanks to that time/energy investment the product went a big step forward.