Mind Master Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Atari played the Pac Man card all wrong. What they should have done was release Pac Man for the 5200 FIRST, then for the 2600 a year or so later. "Pac Man Fever" was so intense back around 1982 or so that it would have given the 5200 a great launch. Instead, Atari put out Pac Man for the 2600, made a lot of quick bucks in a short spurt and then went in the tank afterwards as the 2600 faded with nothing to take its place. There was no compelling reason to buy the 5200. No Space Invaders to send sales skyrocketing a la 2600. All the great arcade games were already available for the 2600. There was no "killer app" for the 5200 - just suped-up versions of the same ol' stuff. That's why Atari should have held the Pac Man card back and used it as a carrot to sell 5200s. When the 5200 sales plateaud, they could release the 2600 version (and a better one at that as it wouldn't have been so rushed). If Atari had done this, there may not have been a crash. Pac Man was that powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room 34 Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 The only problem is Pac-Man came out in early 1982 and the 5200 wasn't released until late '82. Maybe if they'd have pushed the 5200 out the door sooner... Then again, if they had, it probably would've sucked just like the 2600 version of Pac-Man. Clearly, though, Pac-Man should've been the 5200's pack-in (or, uh, "pac-in") instead of Super Breakout. (After all, they eventually threw Pac-Man in with the later 2600 systems... what was that all about?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I don't see how or why atari would have had ANY problem releasing their atari 8 bit computers in a different case whenever they wanted to... I had never thought about it before, but I do believe you are right, that would have saved the 5200 fora bit. I don't know if it would have saved Atari, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBoris Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 This is a good point, the 5200 really didn't have any good "launch titles". Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Agreed.. I can STILL remember being unimpressed and feeling somewhat dejected when my $200 5200 console came with none other than... the majestic.. the exciting.. the hot... Super Breakout. There were so many cool arcade games at the time.. and any of them would've worked just fine! (heck.. even Galaxian). But Super Breakout was the most lackluster pack-in they could've ever imagined. And there was Coleco.. with DONKEY KONG ... and with the closest arcade graphics we had ever seen to date at that as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Atari played the Pac Man card all wrong. What they should have done was release Pac Man for the 5200 FIRST, then for the 2600 a year or so later. "Pac Man Fever" was so intense back around 1982 or so that it would have given the 5200 a great launch. Instead, Atari put out Pac Man for the 2600, made a lot of quick bucks in a short spurt and then went in the tank afterwards as the 2600 faded with nothing to take its place. There was no compelling reason to buy the 5200. No Space Invaders to send sales skyrocketing a la 2600. All the great arcade games were already available for the 2600. There was no "killer app" for the 5200 - just suped-up versions of the same ol' stuff. That's why Atari should have held the Pac Man card back and used it as a carrot to sell 5200s. When the 5200 sales plateaud, they could release the 2600 version (and a better one at that as it wouldn't have been so rushed). If Atari had done this, there may not have been a crash. Pac Man was that powerful. The pack-in issue is a valid one. Colecovision had Donkey Kong and I'm sure that greatly contributed to its sales (among all the intense hype over the console) The 5200 had (whoopie) Super Breakout, though later it did include Pac Man (can you say too late?) Yes, the "Super System" should've had an included title to show off its super capabilities. Also, rather surprisingly, while Coleco boasted of many add-on controllers, Atari only reacted with the Trakball controller for the 5200 and while it was working on some other controllers, those were after thoughts and veeeerrryyyy slow in the process of creation. Atari was top-heavy, lets face it.... management was not listening to the guys in the trenches, the engineers and programmers, the people who (for the most part... there were some exceptions) loved games, played them, knew them and had friends and neighbors, they understood what was needed. Also Atari held numerous focus group, only to ignore the negative results of those groups. Atari should've had a line of "Super" Controllers like a steering wheel and an arcade joystick and other devices readied for the Super-launch... the 5200 was a HUGE step, Atari was trying to move away from the 2600, yet in haste they pushed it out the door too quickly and should've thought more about things... like the Pac Man pack-in.... its weird how Atari opted for Pac Man to become the Corporate Icon of the firm, yet they let the 2600 version out the door... thats not just blind stupidity, its almost corporate sabotage..... (Atari=Enron of the 80's??? Yikes! Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 The only problem is Pac-Man came out in early 1982 and the 5200 wasn't released until late '82. Maybe if they'd have pushed the 5200 out the door sooner... Then again, if they had, it probably would've sucked just like the 2600 version of Pac-Man. Clearly, though, Pac-Man should've been the 5200's pack-in (or, uh, "pac-in") instead of Super Breakout. (After all, they eventually threw Pac-Man in with the later 2600 systems... what was that all about?) That was all about "gee we made 20 mill Pac Mans and there are only 12 million consoles.... we thought people would actually run out and buy a console just to play Crap Ma---errr, Pac Man.... instead we're stuck with not only 8 million unsold, but more like 10 million or so because the game sucked and only the "unknowing" bought it before the reviews came out and people realized Pac Man - it ain't" So lets give them away in 2600 consoles and just get rid of them, we'll bury the rest in the dump.... Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room 34 Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 That was all about "gee we made 20 mill Pac Mans and there are only 12 million consoles.... So lets give them away in 2600 consoles and just get rid of them, we'll bury the rest in the dump.... Well, yeah... I started thinking about that even as I was writing that post. So why didn't they throw in E.T. as well? Considering the overwhelming quantities of both Combat and Pac-Man out there (especially in eBay auctions), I have to wonder... how many of the Pac-Man carts in circulation today were purchased and how many came as pack-ins? I, of course, got my copy of Pac-Man before I had my 2600 (granted, only by about 45 minutes). But more recently I have acquired several more, including a CIB sealed copy that had been a pack-in, judging by the sticker on the shrinkwrap. (That is gone now, of course... I opened the package to see which catalog was inside!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witchfynde Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 (After all, they eventually threw Pac-Man in with the later 2600 systems... what was that all about?) Maybe because, after the release of Centipede, it was becoming evident that there were female gamers out there (although not near as many as the guys). So maybe they did that to try to attract both markets (even though the game wasn't that great, which is an understatement), since I'm sure not many girls are interested in blowing up tanks...that's a guy thing! (mostly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room 34 Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Maybe because, after the release of Centipede, it was becoming evident that there were female gamers out there (although not near as many as the guys). Hey... I NEVER played Combat as a kid, because I almost always played Atari alone! I thought it was a terrible idea to make a 2-player-only game the pack-in. Air-Sea Battle would've been a much better choice in the beginning. My point was not that Pac-Man is "girly"... it's just that it's a crappy game! I think Curt has it right -- it's not because Pac-Man was going to sell a ton more systems; it's because they had a bunch of Pac-Man carts to unload! (In fact, didn't they actually pack BOTH Combat AND Pac-Man in those systems?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariman Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I think so. I'll have to dig out my 2600's box and take a look. I distinctly remember the sticker saying something like "FREE PAC-MAN GAME INCLUDED!!" in addition to something on the box saying that combat was included... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I, of course, got my copy of Pac-Man before I had my 2600 (granted, only by about 45 minutes). But more recently I have acquired several more, including a CIB sealed copy that had been a pack-in, judging by the sticker on the shrinkwrap. (That is gone now, of course... I opened the package to see which catalog was inside!) I remember my mother coming home that afternoon with a copy of Pac Man, it was a total surprise, I wanted a copy of it and it was released that same day, but everyone we called the prior days of the week said they were sold out of all the ones coming in. My mothers boss apparently was close friends with the owner of the Staten Island Computer Center which was like Atari-Central in Staten Island, NY.... they had all of the display kiosks, displays, computers, games you named it... well her boss apparently got 6 copies of it and gave one to my Mom for me... I remember how excited I was and tore the box open, popped in Pac Man, flicked the switch and immediately started the game.... then came that clanky Bee-Doo-Bahhh sound and the bonk bonk, bonk bonk sound.... Pac Man was chewing, not the arcade open/close, he was chewing, the maze was all wrong, the colors all wrong and that annoying sound, oh man that sound!!! I actually stopped playing and picked up the box to do a double-take to see if maybe my mother made a mistake and I just "thought" I heard her say this was Pac Man.... and it was (at least the box title said it was...) I played it some more, it was okay... but not great and certainly not Pac Man. Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Master Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 Super Breakout as the pack-in for the 5200? How short-sighted could Atari get? They obviously wanted to give away the only game they figured nobody would buy. A far cry from the modern strategy of selling the console packed with a great game at a loss just to gain market share, then make a profit on selling more games. Atari was spoiled rotten by the success of the 2600. They thought the customers would just go on buying forever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Super Breakout as the pack-in for the 5200? How short-sighted could Atari get? They obviously wanted to give away the only game they figured nobody would buy. A far cry from the modern strategy of selling the console packed with a great game at a loss just to gain market share, then make a profit on selling more games. What made this an even greater joke was that while Atari had supposedly planned on releasing paddles for the 5200, they were never released. I have to admit that as much as I love the 5200, playing Super Breakout with non-centering joysticks that break really easily was not too much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witchfynde Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Maybe because, after the release of Centipede, it was becoming evident that there were female gamers out there (although not near as many as the guys). Hey... I NEVER played Combat as a kid, because I almost always played Atari alone! I thought it was a terrible idea to make a 2-player-only game the pack-in. Yeah, plus it's funny that, looking back now, a lot of games were two-player games only, and the majority of games now are ONE player only! (Well, not including net play.) Air-Sea Battle would've been a much better choice in the beginning. That WAS included at times (but you probably already knew that)... My point was not that Pac-Man is "girly" Mine either, I just said it appealed to both sexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariDude Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Atari made good products but what it needed most of all was good management. The people at the top were not video game fans and had no idea of what made a good product. Too often it was rush it out the door and people will buy it. They did not think about the future. They only thought abou the here and now and as a result, people got tired of the titles that they would release. If Atari had done Pac Man right (like the Ms Pac Man hack) and if they had been more realistic with releasing E.T. with some real development time, they might have done better but given what ultimately happened in the mid 80s, they might have only survived for a few more years rather than be bought out by the Tramiels for their new computer company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Mitchell Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Atari kept reinventing the wheel. The 5200 (1982) is nothing more than the Atari 400 (1978-79). The 7800 looks to be nothing more than the Atari Jr and the games look like those of the 8-bit/5200 library. The Atari XE (1987) is nothing more than the Atari 800 (1978-79). So there was alot of inbreeding from a marketing point of view. And Atari would have tanked even if the '84 crash had not happened. So the unique products that Atari Inc/Corp did make over the years include: 2600,400/800,ST,Lynx,Portfolio,Jaguar Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Super Breakout ranks as about the worst pack in game ever selected for any console. Any game in the 5200 library would have been better. What's worse is that Super Breakout is a game that simply should never have been released for the 5200. There is absolutely nothing about the game that showcases the 5200's abilities in any way. It offered nothing that the 2600 couldn't do just as well, and was severely dated even when it was released. Star Raiders would have been a good showcase game. It used all the functions of the 5200 controller except for the top fire button. The key problem was that it had been available for years on the Atari computers. Countermeasure would have been a good choice. It used all the functions of the controller, and wasn't available for any other system. Plus, it was a pretty good game. I agree that Pac-Man would have made a great pack in. Had the 5200 shipped like that, its impact would have been much greater than it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Atari kept reinventing the wheel. The 5200 (1982) is nothing more than the Atari 400 (1978-79). The 7800 looks to be nothing more than the Atari Jr and the games look like those of the 8-bit/5200 library. The Atari XE (1987) is nothing more than the Atari 800 (1978-79). So there was alot of inbreeding from a marketing point of view. And Atari would have tanked even if the '84 crash had not happened. So the unique products that Atari Inc/Corp did make over the years include: 2600,400/800,ST,Lynx,Portfolio,Jaguar Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Hmmm, I don't really agree on the 7800, it was a new peice of HW that also worked side by side with the 2600 TIA for compatibility. The 7800 had superior capabilites to the 5200 in color/graphics but lacked good sound, it was more expandable and was ready at launch with High-Score, Computer Add-on and a Laserdisc system was in the works with Philips for it (unconfirmed). The title line up original had many firsts like Xevious, Food Fight, Galaga for the home consoles and some new titles like Desert Falcon (originally Nile Flyer), Centipede offered some new twists like side by side competition and 3D Asteroids really showed off the graphics capabilites of the machine. Also its Pack-in: Pole Position II was a nice selection (just needed a steering wheel controller)... The 7800 had massive potential and if the Tramiels hadn't of shelved it, it would've kept Atari as a market leader and certainly would've kept the landscape with Nintendo on an even playing field. Sega, perhaps would'nt have even entered the US home market and may have turned around and licensed or developed for the Atari 7800 platform as well. As for everything else... very true, Atari was repackaging the same chipset from the 400/800 line over and over. If it wasn't for the purchase of the Handy (Lynx) from Epyx, purchasing the Flare II from Flare (which became the Jaguar 64) then Atari would've had no new products, even their own in-house attempt (the Panther) was a repackaged ST computer for the most part. Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Ever notice when the 5200 is talked about you always gotta have someone who tries to enlighten us that it's a repackaged 400/800? Rob, nothing on you man (we luvs ya ) But we all KNOW that already. It aint rocket science But you always see this (especially on the rgvc newsgroup ) ex: "most all the 5200 games can be played on my 400/800 already!" ... welll DUUUUHHHHH Lets just talk about the 5200 for what it is. A repackaged 400 yes, but a stand alone console in and of itself. And yes. Super Breakout == THE WORST PACK IN DECISION IN THE HISTORY OF VIDS EVER. kthx What's worse is that Super Breakout is a game that simply should never have been released for the 5200. There is absolutely nothing about the game that showcases the 5200's abilities in any way. It offered nothing that the 2600 couldn't do just as well, and was severely dated even when it was released. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 And yes. Super Breakout == THE WORST PACK IN DECISION IN THE HISTORY OF VIDS EVER. kthx Naaah, that award goes to the later 2600s that had Pac-man as a pack in. That game was a huge dud and disapppointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Mitchell Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Ever notice when the 5200 is talked about you always gotta have someone who tries to enlighten us that it's a repackaged 400/800? Rob, nothing on you man (we luvs ya ) But we all KNOW that already. It aint rocket science Yeah .. (Curt too) I was just kinda sounding off ... I mean .. I was not buying these Atari products .. I had the Atari 800 and the 2600 and I was not buying the 5200 and the 7800 and ... I was a memeber of the target demographic and I was not buying Atari .. because all their product looked like repackaged old product. What was I expecting? Something new .. something different .. Rob Mitchell, Atlanta, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 heh yeah sorry I was just sounding off too Maybe it was in frustration after reading too much rgvc Maybe I need to go home today and take a nap ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 a permanent dirt nap, maybe. hey vito, get 'em, and put 'em in the trunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtboy69 Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 i think atari's big problem was the same as sega they always get there stuff out first thinking that a better system alone will sell and not realizing that it takes great games by more then just themselves to push a system i don't think it's a matter of pacman shoulda been on the 5200 it's a matter of bad third party support those companies didn't turn anything that was worth while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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