The TI game scene

[Retrospect]

Hello everyone.

 

I've been away from here for a time, taking a break from all things coding .... I have got plans for new projects, but I need the time to sit and get these things going. (Writer's block isn't helping)

 

So, I've been 'lurking' for quite a while, seeing how everyone is doing. There's great projects / games written by Rasmus, I have noticed. I was very impressed with the paralax scrolling demo, using colourised Parsec graphics.

 

I also visit other sites, I have seen a steady amount of Sinclair Spectrum games being released, that never seems to stop. The Commodore computers are getting games too. There's even new games for the ZX80 and ZX81.

 

I would love to see more new games for the TI. There's loads of brilliant coders out there - but is the TI going into a decline in games, as there seems to be a lot of talk of hardware lately, the forum is dominated by it.

ALSO .....

I think I know what might help, certainly help me, and others out there .... I've seen this thing called "BASIN C" for the ZX Spectrum, it's a development tool that runs in Windows / Linux with Wine, and it lets you type in a program in basic, use all sorts of options to make loader screens etc, it's brilliant .... you output your file to a TAP or TZX format which most if not all Spectrum emulators use. Is there, or will there ever be, something like that for the TI emulators / classic99 ?

It could use Extended Basic as a format, you have an input window (like an advanced text pad which uses X BASIC) and an output window (which is an emulator in a small window) and you test your program on the fly. It could even incorporate a way to compile the code and output to a cartridge image. (obviously an assembly writing option could be there?)

(this could be an interesting dev pack for harry's efforts, imagine the compliler / xb256 in one easy to use programming environment that spits out either a disk image or a cart (compiled) image!)

What do you think? .... it's just an idea, I can't do it myself unfortunately, as I'm not that savvy.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Retrospect

[Willsy]

I tell you what I like the idea of... Porting some of those ZX81 games across to the TI. The TI has the same 32x24 screen as the ZX81. I'd love to port some of those ZX81 games over, and leave them *exactly* as they were/are on the ZX81. I.e. just black and white, with no sound. So you are literally playing a ZX81 style game on the TI. A lot of the ZX81 games could simply be written in Extended Basic and compiled with senior_falcons compiler, and they would run beautifully, and be soooooo retro. How retro would it be to play a ZX81 game on a TI!

 

And for anyone that doesn't know, the ZX81 (Timex Sinclair 1000, as it's known in the 'states) came with only 1K of ram, (most people used a RAM pack to take it up to 16K), black and white only, no sound at all, and no high resolution graphics. Most games just use the ASCII character set, since you couldn't re-define them. Despite this, there were/are some great games on the little black wedge-shaped beauty.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNzlHgkG7Xw

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4rKZPLI5Cc

The above one features very imaginative use of the ASCII character set IMO. Nice game.

[+adamantyr]

Welcome back, Retrospect!

 

I have to agree with you... and what's interesting is, the focus on hardware over software development isn't a new one in the 99'er community. I remember this being a problem all the way back in the 90's when my main social network was MicroPENDIUM... It seemed like everyone was making excellent hardware upgrades and changes, but then not producing any software to really take advantage of it. And in particular, a real dearth of original games.

 

For example, when the ASM card came out, the only game that was available for it was 99-Opoly... which I'm kind of curious what exactly it does that requires 128k? And then someone wrote a loader to be able to retain multiple Extended BASIC programs in memory. That's also great, but wouldn't a new Extended BASIC that took FULL advantage of the memory be more useful? I'm thinking you type in "SIZE" and you get told you have 130,000 bytes free kind of awesomeness...

 

No ill respect towards Rasmus and his AWESOME work on Sabre Wulf, but it is an already existing game. I'm less interested myself in trying to port games over from other platforms because it's... well, it's not something really unique and yours, is it? I had the same issue when I was writing a port of Eastern Front 1941... I lost interest because I wasn't really making my own game, I was just copying what someone else already did. (Okay and also converting the A.I. routine from one assembly to another was getting seriously maddening...)

 

That said... it is hard to write games. And obviously, all of us probably don't have a great deal of spare time to write them, much less play them! When we were doing the little contests to write games, we saw a lot more output on the forums because it was something that was a lot more accessible to everyone.

 

Creating a system like that BASIN C for the TI platform does sound like one way to make it more accessible... my main worry is that more energy would be devoted into creating THAT than actually writing any games on it!

 

It reminds me, funny enough, of the coder who wrote two arcade clones (Donkey King and Sailor Man) for Tom Mix software on the TRS-80 Color Computer, Chris Latham. He was absolutely brilliant; I read an interview (sadly the link to it is dead...) where he described the different techniques he used to create the games. But when he was asked what kind of games he liked and would write, he was puzzled by the question... like, he was able to replicate an existing game to near perfection, but being asked to come up with one on his own was beyond his experience.

[Retrospect]

Willsy, those classic ZX81 games would play out very nicely on a TI99 - one in particular I like to play is the 3D Maze with the dinosuar, written by JK Greye.

 

Adamantyr, I for one would love to use a similar programming tool to BASIN for the TI .... if it did what BASIN does, it would be excellent.

I can imagine, XB256 or XB environment, syntax checking on the fly, so less mistakes, you can scroll up and down your text file making it super easy to use, and it spits out an image that emulators can use (even .CAS for MESS ti99 emulation in cassettes?. Obviously, BASIC or Minimem only for that option, or disk options for both Cody Burr's TI emulator, and Tursi's and Rasmus' emulators)

 

I think in the end, with the fact that we have brilliant guys here who devote a lot of time to stuff for the TI as it is, it's down to the fact that the TI was never as popular 'in the day' as the C64 and Spectrum/Timex computers were - to this day, it kind of sticks, and there's the same ratio of software coming out in virtual format.

[Willsy]

Creating a system like that BASIN C for the TI platform does sound like one way to make it more accessible... my main worry is that more energy would be devoted into creating THAT than actually writing any games on it!

That's what's happened with TurboForth. Only a couple of people have really tried it, then they moved on. I don't think it's TurboForth per-se, it's just people don't want to invest the time to learn a new language (i.e. Forth). They're often happy enough to plod along with XB.

[Retrospect]

That's what's happened with TurboForth. Only a couple of people have really tried it, then they moved on. I don't think it's TurboForth per-se, it's just people don't want to invest the time to learn a new language (i.e. Forth). They're often happy enough to plod along with XB.

Speaking of TurboForth, how's your Manic Miner project coming on, have you any time to work on it at all? .... (time is something I know a lot of us just dont have).

[+adamantyr]

That's what's happened with TurboForth. Only a couple of people have really tried it, then they moved on. I don't think it's TurboForth per-se, it's just people don't want to invest the time to learn a new language (i.e. Forth). They're often happy enough to plod along with XB.

 

For me, it's assembly language. No ill feelings towards TurboForth, I just like writing in assembly. Okay I'm weird...

 

I think we also just have a lack of people interested in programming games... that hasn't changed since the 80's. Consider the TI software library; even in the old days it was primarily arcade knock-offs and clones of other games. Tunnels of Doom stands out as a uniquely original game, mainly because Kevin Kinney was left to himself and he worked on it on his own time as well.

 

TI didn't do us many favors, only having 8k available for standard RAM in the cartridge. A lot of the license deals with Sega and other game producers balked because TI told them they had to fit games into 8k alone. (I remember reading that's the main reason Zaxxon was never released.)

 

The MSX game library is proof you CAN write some pretty good games with the video chip and even sound chip on the TI. I think that's why I've detoured a bit from my CRPG into my Zelda-like... please note, NOT a clone of Zelda. Inspired by.

 

Adamantyr

Edited October 10, 2014 by adamantyr

[Asmusr]

Regarding the ZX81, it had no hi-res graphics as Willsy said, still someone were able to do this:

 

 

That's what really interests me: how to tweak the old hardware to do even more than we have seen, and we know that's possible seeing what they have done on the MSX, for instance.

 

I came back to the TI-99/4A about 18 months ago after a 30 years break to find that on the games side not much had happened! Tursi had done some wonderful work on sound, and Quinton Tormanen and a few more people had made some really nice games (sorry if I leave anyone out - this is how I remember it). Still, on the software/games side Parsec was/is still considered the gold standard.

 

But for me that's what's so exiting about the TI. There is so much potential that hasn't been exploited. Just take something basic like the half-bitmap (hybrid) mode. AFAIK there is only one game (Rock Runner) that is using it.

 

Regarding the games I have written, it has been a great experience for me (I have always wanted to write games), but I have no illusions that people are actually playing them. Personally I lose interest in any TI game after about 20 seconds, including my own (actually I spent 30 mins walking through the Sabre Wulf maze with my son before I added the animals), but at least I hope that people will check them out out on their real hardware.

 

The games I have written have taken about 2 hours every night for 2 months, i.e. 120 hours (this is just a rough estimate). If you want to make a your own game I don't think you can expect to spend less time than that.

 

[+OLD CS1]

The games I have written have taken about 2 hours every night for 2 months, i.e. 120 hours (this is just a rough estimate). If you want to make a your own game I don't think you can expect to spend less time than that.

 

I figure that this will be my bare minimum as I have to also learn proper 9900 coding along the way. For my own project I have determined that a hybrid bitmap mode is not appropriate due to the limitation in the number of available sprites, but I am certain I will take advantage of segregated screen and sprite pattern tables. Memory layouts are a lot of "fun" as it is inevitable I will have to change things numerous times as development progresses -- nothing is static and perfect, there is always something else add, remove, combine, re-figure, in particular if you are trying to fit everything in the console. I ran into a similar problem when I was developing my BBS on the Commodore 64, but memory layouts are a lot different when working in 64k RAM. Quite a bit more elbow room

 

To be fair, though, I have been spending more time recently laboring over the graphics both for the program and materials.

[Asmusr]

I kind of forgot my own point, which is that I think PC side tools is an absolute must to speed up development, but I don't think we have a large enough user base to justify making the big, unified tool. I have been thinking about making a PC side version of XB which would compile directly into TMS9900 assembler on the PC, but I doubt it would have more than a few users.

[+retroclouds]

Even though there has been a lot of talk on hardware, I still think that the last 5 years here on Atariage have brought us more new excellent games as the 15 years before. The way I see it, if we keep the momentum going we will see new great hardware and games in the next months and years...

[Willsy]

Speaking of TurboForth, how's your Manic Miner project coming on, have you any time to work on it at all? .... (time is something I know a lot of us just dont have).

 

I made some changes to the code recently to the point where I'm happier with the code that currently exists. Just starting to work on the animation of the nasties (guardians, as they're called in MM parlance). I need to re-think how the animation engine is to work. It's too complex. The solution I currently have is better I think. Just need to code it up and try it.

[am1933]

Regarding the ZX81, it had no hi-res graphics as Willsy said, still someone were able to do this:

 

 

That's what really interests me: how to tweak the old hardware to do even more than we have seen, and we know that's possible seeing what they have done on the MSX, for instance.

 

I came back to the TI-99/4A about 18 months ago after a 30 years break to find that on the games side not much had happened! Tursi had done some wonderful work on sound, and Quinton Tormanen and a few more people had made some really nice games (sorry if I leave anyone out - this is how I remember it). Still, on the software/games side Parsec was/is still considered the gold standard.

 

But for me that's what's so exiting about the TI. There is so much potential that hasn't been exploited. Just take something basic like the half-bitmap (hybrid) mode. AFAIK there is only one game (Rock Runner) that is using it.

 

Regarding the games I have written, it has been a great experience for me (I have always wanted to write games), but I have no illusions that people are actually playing them. Personally I lose interest in any TI game after about 20 seconds, including my own (actually I spent 30 mins walking through the Sabre Wulf maze with my son before I added the animals), but at least I hope that people will check them out out on their real hardware.

 

The games I have written have taken about 2 hours every night for 2 months, i.e. 120 hours (this is just a rough estimate). If you want to make a your own game I don't think you can expect to spend less time than that.

 

The homebrew game development on the ZX81 is pretty impressive considering the hardware but the "Hi Res" problem was gotten around during the early 1980's, I remember a company called Software Farm had a game called 49'er for the ZX81 and it featured fairly passable hi res charcters. I am not a big Sinclair fan so I am a bit sketchy on the details-but I seem to remember that they had found an undocumented way to redefine the character set, I suppose it was similar in a way to CALL CHAR.

[Retrospect]

They sold a few hi-res boards for the ZX81 didnt they? with only a few software titles being made for them?

[am1933]

They sold a few hi-res boards for the ZX81 didnt they? with only a few software titles being made for them?

I don't remember them doing any hardware for the ZX81, I could be wrong though.

 

The only hi res hardware I remember seeing for the machine was by Memotech, who incidentally made most of the best looking and reliable add-ons for the machine. They also made one of the best looking computers ever (MTX 500, 512 and 128) which had graphics courtesy of the good old TMS9929A and sound was provided by the TI SN76489.

[+Ksarul]

Actually, if you look at a lot of the new hardware things that have come out in more-or-less final form in the last year, a primary use case for them is gaming. A major focus point for TI games has always been the cartridge, to allow those with unexpanded systems to play lots of games. Several of the new hardware bits cater to that audience--and permit repackaging of existing software in ways that weren't possible before. Some of the other things we of the hardware freak family have done don't fit into that area though--they were done mostly to fill a need I had for something, something I thought the community might have some fun with too. I actually plan to use my protoboards to replicate the FORTI board, as there is a design document for it that relies on the old TI protoboards. Four sound chips producing stereo sound--controlled by FORTH programs. That might even get more people using TurboFORTH or fbFORTH. I finally found a good source for the sound chips, so it is possible now. I love software--but I am not so good at writing it. I am good at hardware design, so I try to do the things that enable the software people to be able to do more of the things they want to do with their TI machines. It is a hobby that I love, and I'm really glad we have both hardware and software freaks of all stripes here--each side gives great ideas to the other side and the sum is definitely greater than the parts.

[+OLD CS1]

For anyone who regularly uses a personal computer, be it Windows-, Mac-, or Linux-based, there is very little reason or need for productivity on a home computer, the TI notwithstanding. That said, there is little compelling reason NOT to use a home computer for productivity if you want.

 

For instance, in my case I am very comfortable using some of the older Amiga graphics programs (Brilliance, in particular,) but I use GIMP for all of my graphics work. I understand that Personal Paint has similar functionality but I never learned it before my major migration to Windows.

 

Plus, playing games on these old beasts is fun -- as is writing for them

Edited October 11, 2014 by OLD CS1

[senior_falcon]

Regarding the games I have written, it has been a great experience for me (I have always wanted to write games), but I have no illusions that people are actually playing them. Personally I lose interest in any TI game after about 20 seconds, including my own (actually I spent 30 mins walking through the Sabre Wulf maze with my son before I added the animals), but at least I hope that people will check them out out on their real hardware.

To me the games that have puzzles to solve are the ones that I have found had the most staying power. For the TI they include:

Aperture, TI Runner, Perfect Push, Tetris, FreeCell, Video Chess, Backgammon, Infocom and Scott Adams, and I'm sure others. Another great game I discovered for the PC is Hexahop, but I don't believe it would be easy to port this to the TI. And I liked playing billiards on the X-Box with my son. I'm with Rasmus; fast paced games that require quick reflexes are the ones I get tired of fairly quickly. (Not that I haven't spend plenty of time on them)

[InfernalKeith]

I feel like everyone's more interested in creating than using. And I count myself among that number. I tend to get discouraged when I post about an XB game I'm working on and it generates little attention or activity, but there are many projects I don't give the proper attention to, either. It also doesn't help that we're an older bunch with real lives to lead, which can lead to long delays in projects. There's just not enough of us for there to be a core of obsessive coders that always have a steady stream of new projects coming out.

 

Owen Brand and Howard ("The Codex") Kistler were real powerhouses of activity and enthusiasm, but we seem to have lost both of them.

 

I have a lot of traveling and hotel downtime for work coming up, so I'm hoping that will give me some time to finish and release a few of these long-dormant projects of mine. Bottom line, I think ya just have to enjoy the parts of the community that you enjoy, and do the work you're doing as its own reward, and if anyone else is into it, that's just a nice bonus.

[+Vorticon]

To me the games that have puzzles to solve are the ones that I have found had the most staying power. For the TI they include:

Aperture, TI Runner, Perfect Push, Tetris, FreeCell, Video Chess, Backgammon, Infocom and Scott Adams, and I'm sure others. Another great game I discovered for the PC is Hexahop, but I don't believe it would be easy to port this to the TI. And I liked playing billiards on the X-Box with my son. I'm with Rasmus; fast paced games that require quick reflexes are the ones I get tired of fairly quickly. (Not that I haven't spend plenty of time on them)

 

In that case I would recommend you try Diablo and TI-Pei (both on the gameshelf site). I'm with you on the kind of games I like, but have a special affinity for wargames (not the RTS kind, but the old fashioned table top simulations) which sadly are completely lacking on the TI... I am trying to create my own, but it has devolved into a rat's nest of complexity and has been in limbo for some time now. But by Horus I will finish it some day

[+OLD CS1]

I feel like everyone's more interested in creating than using. And I count myself among that number. I tend to get discouraged when I post about an XB game I'm working on and it generates little attention or activity, but there are many projects I don't give the proper attention to, either.

 

I see it as us being a very diverse group of people with diverse interests, so what turns one on will not necessarily turn on another. It does make it difficult to get feedback on something like game play if that is what you need, but in terms of development I think everyone is willing to pitch in if they have something to offer or are asked. My old COMPUTE! conversion Tiles generated a bit of interest when I asked some for input, and a few even mentioned honestly that type of game was not their cup-a, but I did get some good input along the way. Mind you, I was not able to complete it to my satisfaction (damn near three years ago at this point,) and I have four other COMPUTE! conversions I would like to re-do and dress up.

 

To some degree we are not each others' target demographic in terms of consumption. To the other degree a good number of people here do play and use. Maybe the balance is a little off but I would hope that does not discourage anyone.

 

Anyway, that is my half-baked perspective. Far too late to get any more philosophical. Night, all!

[TheMole]

I actually think the state of our development tools is pretty good, better than ever. Just looking at what has become available since I rediscovered my love for the system some two years ago:

• Progressively more impressive BASIC compilers, with the latest doing basically everything an XB developer might need.
• New/updated and powerful programming environments (gcc, the Forth's)
• PC-based graphics design tools such as Magellan, convert9918, ...
• Programming libraries providing out-of-the-box optimized functionality for games (e.g. Tursi's VFM/SPF player library, XB256, ...)

I mean, the amount of tools that have become available in this small community in such a short amount of time is absolutely staggering, we should do everything we can to embrace them and make beautiful games with them.

 

The only thing I can think of that might be holding back development today could paradoxically be the stunning quality of some of these new releases. It's pretty impressive that we're even starting to see interested from the typically much more advanced MSX community in what we're doing. But I can imagine that some people think that games (or games to be) like Road Hunter, Ultimate Planet or Adamantyr's Zelda-like game make their efforts look meak in comparison. But honestly, that's just bullcrap. My two favorite games on the TI back in the day were Parsec and some Dutch frogger clone written in XB call "Kermit". There is absolutely no reason why anyone would not be able to build an truly fun to play XB game today. All I can advocate is that people just go for it, knowing that everyone's contributions are appreciated even if they're not fast-paced assembler master pieces, a fun game is a fun game. Period. Stop procrastinating, just go for it!

 

And for what it's worth, I've played Road Hunter and Scramble to pass away 15 minutes here or there more than once, so I at least sometimes actually play these new games. I would probably sink hours in a Zelda clone and I have a couple of friends that would absolutely love to play Ultimate Planet.

Edited October 12, 2014 by TheMole

[senior_falcon]

I remember being in Radio Shack and playing a game called MegaBug on the CoCo. (aka TumbleBugs and Dung Beetles) The premise is that you are a hungry set of teeth that wanders through a large maze eating food dots. After eating, the inevitable happens and you leave droppings. There are something like 7 dung beetles that go through the maze following and eating the trail of droppings that you left. The game designers "helpfully" provide a magnifying glass that enlarges the maze with you centered in the magnified area. Of course, this obscures your immediate vicinity, so at a certain distance the beetles cannot be seen until they get close enough to be in the magnified area. There are several videos on youtube demoing this game. I think this could be ported to the TI, but you could only use 2 colors in the maze and 2 different colors in the magnified area. The magnified area could be a block of 4 double size and magnified sprites set to black to blank the background and 4 more sprites on top of them showing the magnified part of the maze. That's 4 sprites on a line, so the beetles and the teeth would have to be hardware sprites.

Edited October 12, 2014 by senior_falcon

[Omega-TI]

After seeing what Rasmus did with Sabre Wulf's graphics and the animated characters, I've been wondering ever since if a port of Lemmings is possible.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ9CS0KUZvY

[Gary from OPA]

Since this is an Atari forum, maybe we should port (steal) well with author's permission of course, the new homebrew Atari 2600 stuff, the TI99 should be able to handle it for sure.